The rich get richer and the poor get poorer. Why?

[soot]

I agree. It's all in how you use it. That goes for "the smart" as well as "the rich".

Okay. Cool.

Now let's talk about "the dumb" and "the poor", and I guess the "average" too.

And understand that I'm not a bleeding heart in any way when it comes to them.

It is my opinion that the world needs fry chefs and sump pump cleaner up'ers and middle management as much as it needs Army SF NCOs and Wall Street magnates.

So I don't think the fact that someone is poor, dumb, or both, necessarially entitles them to anything or necessarially requires any kind of involvment or sacrifice on my part.

But let's be honest here.

Some people, many if not most people, who are poor end up poor by virtue of having been dealt a pretty lousy hand in life.

While I'm perfectly willing to concede that a naturally intellectually gifted kid born to a dirt poor, abusive, alcoholic, disabled father in a tenement appartment building in Jersey City, NJ can, against all odds and theoretically, apply his natural smarts and rise up to the C Suite of a Fortune 500 company, the chances of anyone successfully doing so are incredibly slim.

That isn't the "American Dream" we're talking about there. That's an "American Miracle".

For most people the real "American Dream" is the idea that you're not born into any artificially defined class or caste and through hard work and perseverence you can rise a bit higher in the world than your father did and provide for your children a little better than your father provided for you.

We're not defined by our family name but our families may have more impact on our eventual "success" in life than any other factor.

There have been studiees done which demonstrate, pretty conclusively in my opinion, that a kid raised in a home where a couple hundred books are present will attain 2.5 years more education than a child born in a home with with few or no books.

2.5 years is the difference between an associates degree and a bachelors degree, or a bachelors degree and a graduate degree, or in the other direction the difference between a high school diploma and a GED (maybe).

I don't need to tell you how income disparity correlates to educational disparity in America (or at least I hope I don't).

Now obviously a kid probably isn't going to read several hundred of his parent's books, but that's not really the point that you want to take away from this.

What is, is the fact that parents who have enough intellectual curiosity to own several hundred books and who have a desire to develop their minds through reading pass those traits along to their kids.

And even when you've got an intellectually able kid, who has been raised to appreciate education and to be acedemically curious, and to go ahead and reach for that extra couple years of education, there are SOOOOO many factors that comee into play that make all the difference in the world between eventually becoming an economic success story and an "also ran".

Do you take the right elective that stimulates the right curiosity? Do you hook up with the right mentor who guides you on your path? Do you accept the right internship, in the right company, where you're able to forge productive relationships that allow you to set yourself apart from the pack? Does the right manager trust you with the right account or project that really allows you to wow the right people and really make a name for yourself?

It can go on, and on, and on...

I've read numerous biographies and autobiographies of military generals, major politicians, astronauts, heads of industry, and numerous other classes of "great men", and almost without exception they all credit other people's involvment as being instrumental or responsible to some greater or lesser degree for their own success.

So while it might be pretty common that the absolute dumbest people rarely find success, I don't buy for a minute that poor people are always poor because they're dumb.

 

[specklebang]

This isn't like a sales tax because it isn't regressive. Did you read my whole original post? It's fair and balaced, just like Fox News :roll: Sales taxes, flat taxes, consumption taxes and VAT are all regressive. Specdkle-tax is not.

Everyone pays in proportion to their utilization of the financial system. Less money = less use. Whereas, if I buy a $20K car and Mitt Romney (used as example only) buys a $100K car, he will pay only 5 times more than I will. He could even decide to buy a $20K car and pay exactly the same as me. But my bank transactions (read the original OP) won't be a fraction of his transactions and neither of us will stop trnsacting to save this small tax.

...and everyone should pay something to the system, but it should be proportional. The poor will pay less (but will pay and at least be real citizens who contribute) and the rich will pay much more but can modify their methods if they actually care about the small percentage, which I doubt.

Surely you know by now that despite my deep discounts, I am the worlds greatest philosopher.

You've got to go where the money is and where it doesn't affect the average individual. Otherwise, you end up with little more than a "sales" tax...

 

[Papa bull]

Okay. Cool.

Now let's talk about "the dumb" and "the poor", and I guess the "average" too.

And understand that I'm not a bleeding heart in any way when it comes to them.

It is my opinion that the world needs fry chefs and sump pump cleaner up'ers and middle management as much as it needs Army SF NCOs and Wall Street magnates.

So I don't think the fact that someone is poor, dumb, or both, necessarially entitles them to anything or necessarially requires any kind of involvment or sacrifice on my part.

But let's be honest here.

Some people, many if not most people, who are poor end up poor by virtue of having been dealt a pretty lousy hand in life.

While I'm perfectly willing to concede that a naturally intellectually gifted kid born to a dirt poor, abusive, alcoholic, disabled father in a tenement appartment building in Jersey City, NJ can, against all odds and theoretically, apply his natural smarts and rise up to the C Suite of a Fortune 500 company, the chances of anyone successfully doing so are incredibly slim.

That isn't the "American Dream" we're talking about there. That's an "American Miracle".

For most people the real "American Dream" is the idea that you're not born into any artificially defined class or caste and through hard work and perseverence you can rise a bit higher in the world than your father did and provide for your children a little better than your father provided for you.

We're not defined by our family name but our families may have more impact on our eventual "success" in life than any other factor.

There have been studiees done which demonstrate, pretty conclusively in my opinion, that a kid raised in a home where a couple hundred books are present will attain 2.5 years more education than a child born in a home with with few or no books.

2.5 years is the difference between an associates degree and a bachelors degree, or a bachelors degree and a graduate degree, or in the other direction the difference between a high school diploma and a GED (maybe).

I don't need to tell you how income disparity correlates to educational disparity in America (or at least I hope I don't).

Now obviously a kid probably isn't going to read several hundred of his parent's books, but that's not really the point that you want to take away from this.

What is, is the fact that parents who have enough intellectual curiosity to own several hundred books and who have a desire to develop their minds through reading pass those traits along to their kids.

And even when you've got an intellectually able kid, who has been raised to appreciate education and to be acedemically curious, and to go ahead and reach for that extra couple years of education, there are SOOOOO many factors that comee into play that make all the difference in the world between eventually becoming an economic success story and an "also ran".

Do you take the right elective that stimulates the right curiosity? Do you hook up with the right mentor who guides you on your path? Do you accept the right internship, in the right company, where you're able to forge productive relationships that allow you to set yourself apart from the pack? Does the right manager trust you with the right account or project that really allows you to wow the right people and really make a name for yourself?

It can go on, and on, and on...

I've read numerous biographies and autobiographies of military generals, major politicians, astronauts, heads of industry, and numerous other classes of "great men", and almost without exception they all credit other people's involvment as being instrumental or responsible to some greater or lesser degree for their own success.

So while it might be pretty common that the absolute dumbest people rarely find success, I don't buy for a minute that poor people are always poor because they're dumb.

You make a good point. Having decent parents helps. Even poor parents can be decent parents. But let's be honest here. Virtually everyone has a chance to improve themselves. The difference between those that do and those that don't? Who knows why they make the good or bad choices they do, but there ARE good and bad choices available. I wasn't dealt a very good hand. My father was a Cuban immigrant who left my mom who was dirt poor rural West Virginia Irish stock. I grew up dirt poor wearing used clothes to school and joined the Army 3 weeks after my 17th birthday.

I know about being dealt a bad hand. I also know that if you keep working and keep trying and keep applying yourself, you can do the things you want to do with your life. You just have to get over the idea that anyone owes you anything. You have to go out and earn it and fight for it.

I have a life a lot of people envy. I'm not wealthy but I work my own hours and my work is respected around the world in my little niche. I've had a lot of people say "I wish I could do what you do". I just smile and thank them but what I know is that with so many people, the difference between doing what they want to do and wishing they could do what they want to do is all in just doing instead of wishing. Ask someone what they'd like to do with their life..... and then ask them what they did today to help themselves get there. Successful people take charge of their life and go after their dreams with a vengeance and don't accept defeat.

What is really telling is when you try to help people out and suggest a plan of action that will open up new doors and as soon as there's any hint of actual effort or money being involved, they immediately lose interest. There are countless cottage industries someone could start from their very own home on their own time without even spending much of their own money. But they take some effort. You have to invest something. Time. Study. Money. Something.

 

[Velvet Elvis]

The rich get richer and the poor get poorer. Why?

In general (for you liberals, that means that yes...there are exceptions), this is because the rich continue making the correct choices in life, while the poor continue to make the wrong choices in life.

In general, how many successful people are high school dropouts? Remember...I'm not talking about the 0.01%. I'm talking about "in general."
In general, how many successful people have kids with multiple baby daddies?
In general, how many successful people have gotten college degrees in stupid subjects like "Art History, Music Therapy, or Communications?"

In general, how many successful people work the bare minimum, when they finally DO get a job?
In general, how many successful people are financially responsible....hell....how about personally responsible?



Meanwhile, the actual successful people:

Finish college with a decent degree like "engineering or computer science."
Keep their legs closed (or Jimmy in their pants) until they're financially capable of raising children
Work overtime...a lot. Work weekends. Work as much as they can, and actually try to climb the ladder, instead of plead to their God President to "place them at the top."
Are financially responsible and will not jeopardize their futures for a set of rims, or a house that they damn well know they can't afford.

 

[Papa bull]

In general (for you liberals, that means that yes...there are exceptions), this is because the rich continue making the correct choices in life, while the poor continue to make the wrong choices in life.

In general, how many successful people are high school dropouts? Remember...I'm not talking about the 0.01%. I'm talking about "in general."
In general, how many successful people have kids with multiple baby daddies?
In general, how many successful people have gotten college degrees in stupid subjects like "Art History, Music Therapy, or Communications?"

In general, how many successful people work the bare minimum, when they finally DO get a job?
In general, how many successful people are financially responsible....hell....how about personally responsible?



Meanwhile, the actual successful people:

Finish college with a decent degree like "engineering or computer science."
Keep their legs closed (or Jimmy in their pants) until they're financially capable of raising children
Work overtime...a lot. Work weekends. Work as much as they can, and actually try to climb the ladder, instead of plead to their God President to "place them at the top."
Are financially responsible and will not jeopardize their futures for a set of rims, or a house that they damn well know they can't afford.

Ruh-Roh. The dreaded message of "personal responsibility". That's like the flying superman punch of OWS mentality debate. People who suffer from PMS (poor me syndrome) really can't take that one.

 

[soot]

I know about being dealt a bad hand. I also know that if you keep working and keep trying and keep applying yourself, you can do the things you want to do with your life. You just have to get over the idea that anyone owes you anything. You have to go out and earn it and fight for it.

Same, same.

The drunk from the story above is my dad.

I went much the same route you did. Joined the Army a couple weeks after high school graduation in order to get the 'f' out of Dodge.

Got a college degree on the GI Bill and went on to get a Masters.

I'm not a 1%er either, but I own my own home, a couple cars, a time share, got money put away, the kind of life most Americans would love to havee for themselves. And I too love what I do.

I think it's especially easy for guys like you and me to say, "Well I did it, so can you." But that isn't always the case.

I think the tenacity and fighting spirit that you describe above, and that I recognize as being ever present in my own life, is something that sets us apart.

Not everyone is born with that, and yes, I do think we're born with it.

I can't play a piano worth a good God damn, my five-year-old can draw better stick figures, I took pre-calc three times and failed it every time, I was a fixture on the JV team of every sport I was ever interested in.

I have no artistic, mathematical, or athletic gifts.

But if you want to keep me down you're gonna have to go ahead and kill me because no matter how bad things get I'm going to keep on pushing 'til I don't have a breath left in me.

It's a gift, and it's got nothing to do with being smart.

But look, I agree with what you're saying.

There are a LOT of people who could be doing better (maybe a little, maybe a lot) than they're doing. They don't want to get up early, they don't want to stay late, they want to be "individuals" rather than team players, they want a little now rather than delaying gratification and banking on a lot later. There are all sorts of excuses.

But there are also all sorts of different people.

My initial concern here was that it seemed from the OP that you look down on people. And I tend to find that once you get to know folks there are very few who have absolutely no redeeming characteristics. So I decided to speak up.

Where we're at now is a much different place then we were at in the OP where "people are poor because they're dumb".

 

[Papa bull]

Same, same.

The drunk from the story above is my dad.

I went much the same route you did. Joined the Army a couple weeks after high school graduation in order to get the 'f' out of Dodge.

Got a college degree on the GI Bill and went on to get a Masters.

I'm not a 1%er either, but I own my own home, a couple cars, a time share, got money put away, the kind of life most Americans would love to havee for themselves. And I too love what I do.

I think it's especially easy for guys like you and me to say, "Well I did it, so can you." But that isn't always the case.

I think the tenacity and fighting spirit that you describe above, and that I recognize as being ever present in my own life, is something that sets us apart.

Not everyone is born with that, and yes, I do think we're born with it.

I can't play a piano worth a good God damn, my five-year-old can draw better stick figures, I took pre-calc three times and failed it every time, I was a fixture on the JV team of every sport I was ever interested in.

I have no artistic, mathematical, or athletic gifts.

But if you want to keep me down you're gonna have to go ahead and kill me because no matter how bad things get I'm going to keep on pushing 'til I don't have a breath left in me.

It's a gift, and it's got nothing to do with being smart.

But look, I agree with what you're saying.

There are a LOT of people who could be doing better (maybe a little, maybe a lot) than they're doing. They don't want to get up early, they don't want to stay late, they want to be "individuals" rather than team players, they want a little now rather than delaying gratification and banking on a lot later. There are all sorts of excuses.

But there are also all sorts of different people.

My initial concern here was that it seemed from the OP that you look down on people. And I tend to find that once you get to know folks there are very few who have absolutely no redeeming characteristics. So I decided to speak up.

Where we're at now is a much different place then we were at in the OP where "people are poor because they're dumb".

The point of the OP was also that for one trite cliche, there is also another. Some rich people do get there by fleecing dumb people. Fools will never manage to keep what they earn. Otherwise, the notion that the rich get richer and the poor get poorer is pretty stupid. Granted, the rich often manage to grow their wealth but the industrious poor get richer, too, rather than poorer. That's the beauty of freedom. You can make something of yourself because of it if you just want it bad enough to do what it takes to get it done.

 

[fmw]

Life is a competition. It has been since prehistoric times. Those who do what it takes get more. It has always been so. It is human nature.

 

[AlabamaPaul]

This isn't like a sales tax because it isn't regressive. Did you read my whole original post? It's fair and balaced, just like Fox News :roll: Sales taxes, flat taxes, consumption taxes and VAT are all regressive. Specdkle-tax is not.

Everyone pays in proportion to their utilization of the financial system. Less money = less use. Whereas, if I buy a $20K car and Mitt Romney (used as example only) buys a $100K car, he will pay only 5 times more than I will. He could even decide to buy a $20K car and pay exactly the same as me. But my bank transactions (read the original OP) won't be a fraction of his transactions and neither of us will stop trnsacting to save this small tax.

...and everyone should pay something to the system, but it should be proportional. The poor will pay less (but will pay and at least be real citizens who contribute) and the rich will pay much more but can modify their methods if they actually care about the small percentage, which I doubt.

Surely you know by now that despite my deep discounts, I am the worlds greatest philosopher.

Again, I would need to see a detailed proposal, but I'm not sure that all transactions should be subject to a transaction tax...

 

[specklebang]

To quote Lord Specklebang himself:

Every item in the tax codes is erased. There are only 3 forms of "taxation" at the Federal level.

Every financial transaction that enters the system will pay a tax of 1/10 of a percent. That percentage is my starting point and I'll be happy to hear what you think.

So, you get a paycheck of $600 a week. You must deposit this in your bank OR you could just cash it. If you put it in the bank, you will pay $1.20. When your bank makes a loan of $600, there will be $1.20 tax. When somebody pays back the loan, there will be $1.20 tax. When Daddy Warbucks invest $1-million in a roast baby farm, he will transfer money from his account and pay a tax of $1,000.00. When he gets his monthly dividend of $10,000.00 he will pay a tax of $10.00. There is no tax on cash transactions UNLESS you deposit the money in a financial institution.

Money is always on the move - trillions and trillions of dollars flow from points A to B to C etc. The small percentage is painless.

This eliminates all personal and corporate taxes. There are just 2 more taxes. 10% of your income is placed in a Mandatory Savings account with an em,ployer match of 5%. The last thing is Specklecare which you will pay 5% and your employer will pay 5%. The last 2 will probably lose some money. They are a separate topic though.

Again, I would need to see a detailed proposal, but I'm not sure that all transactions should be subject to a transaction tax...

 

[Velvet Elvis]

Not everyone is born with that, and yes, I do think we're born with it.

No one is "born" with this. They're conditioned. Losers are conditioned to be losers because they choose to be losers. Do you think those ObamaPhones handed themselves out? What people are forced against their will to accept welfare?

My initial concern here was that it seemed from the OP that you look down on people. And I tend to find that once you get to know folks there are very few who have absolutely no redeeming characteristics.

I agree with this, but if those characteristics are just gone to waste because "that gov'mint check's better than a paycheck," or "that ObamaPhone is better than getting a job," then they deserve to be the cockroaches of society.

Where we're at now is a much different place then we were at in the OP where "people are poor because they're dumb".

No one said they were "dumb." What they do is voluntarily game the system by enslaving themselves to Massa Government. Look...a friend of mine once told me "don't believe the hype...there's always money in the ghetto." The problem is, their priorities are retarded. Rims instead of bills. New hair-dos instead of groceries. An X-Box instead of rent. A quart of hooch instead of gas money.

 

[Campbell]

I think that cliche' is caused by yet another cliche'.

A fool and his money are soon parted. If people could pull their heads out of their arses long enough to get a deep breath of oxygen instead of methane, they might realize that rich can get poorer and poor can get richer and the real truth is that the SMART get richer and the DUMB get poorer. Give an idiot a fortune and they'll still wind up broke. Give a smart man a small amount of money and he will use it to improve and increase his fortune. Give an average man a small amount of money and it won't change his lot much at all in the long run.

Sounds pretty good for the rich. Most well off people I've met in my lifetime can't put a roof on their house, plumb in a new dishwasher or hot water heater, weld or solder, cut hair, fly a plane, rework a combustion engine, build a boat dock and many of them can't even back a trailer. The people who do those things usually aren't rich but they're sure as hell smart. What ever happened to "All Men Are Created Equal And Are Entitled To Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness?"

The people who control the markets usually watch monitors, shuffle papers and end up with most of the money and don't think they should have to fight in our wars or pay taxes. They've been like a malignant growth in this country beginning with Reagan slashing tax rates and firing PATCO!!

 

[trfjr]

I think that cliche' is caused by yet another cliche'.

A fool and his money are soon parted. If people could pull their heads out of their arses long enough to get a deep breath of oxygen instead of methane, they might realize that rich can get poorer and poor can get richer and the real truth is that the SMART get richer and the DUMB get poorer. Give an idiot a fortune and they'll still wind up broke. Give a smart man a small amount of money and he will use it to improve and increase his fortune. Give an average man a small amount of money and it won't change his lot much at all in the long run.

there are two other attributes that need to be added to the equation that i fell has more influence on wealth then just intelligents and that is courage and luck.

 

[Campbell]

there are two other attributes that need to be added to the equation that i fell has more influence on wealth then just intelligents and that is courage and luck.

lmao!!!!!

 

[Papa bull]

Sounds pretty good for the rich. Most well off people I've met in my lifetime can't put a roof on their house, plumb in a new dishwasher or hot water heater, weld or solder, cut hair, fly a plane, rework a combustion engine, build a boat dock and many of them can't even back a trailer. The people who do those things usually aren't rich but they're sure as hell smart. What ever happened to "All Men Are Created Equal And Are Entitled To Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness?"

The people who control the markets usually watch monitors, shuffle papers and end up with most of the money and don't think they should have to fight in our wars or pay taxes. They've been like a malignant growth in this country beginning with Reagan slashing tax rates and firing PATCO!!

Class envy is eating you up. Who are the people that control markets? You get your reality spoonfed to you by Hollywood.

All men were created equal and the rest of their lives is determined by their choices. If you want to be rich, you might want to learn something about business management or computer technologies instead of plumbing or carpentry or driving a truck. Anyone can quickly learn how to solder a pipe. Learning how to manage a multi-million dollar information technology project isn't so quick or easy to learn so guess which pays more? Don't spend your life whining that other people made the right choices. Make some right choices yourself.

 

[cpwill]

Actually you can do pretty well for yourself in plumbing, being an electrician, a master carpenter, etc.

A) the vast majority of American millionaires didn't inherit their money, they earned it
B) for most folks, the pathway to wealth isn't through a million dollar income, it's through living on less than you make for your entire life.

 

[Papa bull]

Actually you can do pretty well for yourself in plumbing, being an electrician, a master carpenter, etc.

A) the vast majority of American millionaires didn't inherit their money, they earned it
B) for most folks, the pathway to wealth isn't through a million dollar income, it's through living on less than you make for your entire life.

That is probably true, too. I've known a few millionaires and the ones I've known were as frugal as me. Given that I'm not a millionaire, I'm guessing I should be more frugal using that as a measure.

 

[Dickieboy]

Sounds pretty good for the rich. Most well off people I've met in my lifetime can't put a roof on their house, plumb in a new dishwasher or hot water heater, weld or solder, cut hair, fly a plane, rework a combustion engine, build a boat dock and many of them can't even back a trailer. The people who do those things usually aren't rich but they're sure as hell smart. What ever happened to "All Men Are Created Equal And Are Entitled To Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness?"

The people who control the markets usually watch monitors, shuffle papers and end up with most of the money and don't think they should have to fight in our wars or pay taxes. They've been like a malignant growth in this country beginning with Reagan slashing tax rates and firing PATCO!!

Do you understand opportunity costs? When I was much younger I learned and earned roofing, plumbing and 'auto mechanicing' which is how I paid for my education. Once attaining a degree I realized that I could earn MUCH more applying my degree than the cost of paying someone to replace my roof in the same time frame AND knowing that I had the skill/knowledge to do the work myself. In essence this is a micro example of 'trickle down', I earned while the roofers I employed earned from MY earnings.

ps. Now days my available time to engage in roofing is much greater as my wealth grows income without my attention. Considering this I engaged in roofing (metal roof replacement on my barn) a couple of weeks back (although my body didn't like it too much... ). I did and still do my auto repairs and plumbing mostly due to my anal attention to detail.

 

[Campbell]

Class envy is eating you up. Who are the people that control markets? You get your reality spoonfed to you by Hollywood.

All men were created equal and the rest of their lives is determined by their choices. If you want to be rich, you might want to learn something about business management or computer technologies instead of plumbing or carpentry or driving a truck. Anyone can quickly learn how to solder a pipe. Learning how to manage a multi-million dollar information technology project isn't so quick or easy to learn so guess which pays more? Don't spend your life whining that other people made the right choices. Make some right choices yourself.

I suspected you would have an answer. Hold that thought. Republicans have lost the popular vote in five of the last six national elections and they haven't even suspected that they're on the "Most Unwanted" list.

 

[Papa bull]

I suspected you would have an answer. Hold that thought. Republicans have lost the popular vote in five of the last six national elections and they haven't even suspected that they're on the "Most Unwanted" list.

In the age of the grown-up spoiled brat, nothing is less welcome than the message of personal responsibility. So, if it is any consolation, I don't expect a republican to sit in the White House again for quite some time. I do, however expect a senate and house packed with enough republicans to keep the freestuffers from pushing us off a cliff any faster than they are already doing.

 

[Campbell]

In the age of the grown-up spoiled brat, nothing is less welcome than the message of personal responsibility. So, if it is any consolation, I don't expect a republican to sit in the White House again for quite some time. I do, however expect a senate and house packed with enough republicans to keep the freestuffers from pushing us off a cliff any faster than they are already doing.

You mean like the gerrymandered Republican house which has stood in the way of everything the president has tried to do to bring the economy back from a Republican debt of a new $6 trillion, jobs bleeding off at 750,000 a month, a total crash and a last minute gift of $870 billion to the richest, most powerful banks in the world? Not only that...they left two hot wars and companies like Halliburton and General Dynamics leaving billions totally unaccounted for and ripping and tearing at the very fabric of this country's middle class....or at least what used to be the middle class. Guess who's fighting and dying in their unnecessary wars designed to make huge profits for the big companies? Yep....you got it. HS grads and neer do wells.

You might suddenly get surprised. Voters are not the sharpest knives in the drawer but they usually at least figure out who's on their side.

 

[soot]

No one is "born" with this. They're conditioned.

I'll concede that it's some of both.

Losers are conditioned to be losers because they choose to be losers. Do you think those ObamaPhones handed themselves out?

I think that's probably true for some people. I think it's nonsense in respect to others.

And I think there are all sorts of shades of gray in between the black and white.

What people are forced against their will to accept welfare?

You mean how many people accepted welfare with a gun put to their head?

I wouldn't expect any.

But I know people personally who found that welfare, as repulsive as they may personally have found it, was the only option. You know, since we don't allow people to sell their children into agricultural slave labor like they do in China when things head south.

But 8.8 million people lost their jobs during the "great recession".

We saw a correcponding (though not necessarially equal) increase in the welfare rolls.

Musta been coincidence?

I agree with this, but if those characteristics are just gone to waste because "that gov'mint check's better than a paycheck," or "that ObamaPhone is better than getting a job," then they deserve to be the cockroaches of society.

No one said they were "dumb." What they do is voluntarily game the system by enslaving themselves to Massa Government. Look...a friend of mine once told me "don't believe the hype...there's always money in the ghetto." The problem is, their priorities are retarded. Rims instead of bills. New hair-dos instead of groceries. An X-Box instead of rent. A quart of hooch instead of gas money.

Maybe the problem is that we make welfare too easy.

It's my opinion that we should have a strong and generous welfare program.

But it shouldn't be "no strings attached".

Folks collecting welfare (being "paid" by society) should be working hard for their money.

We have bridges that need painting, public spaces that need landscaping, courthouses and municipal buildings that need powerwashing.

If folks have to work harder for public money than they do for private money I think the mentality you describe would be turned around within a generation.

 

[Papa bull]

Maybe the problem is that we make welfare too easy.

If folks have to work harder for public money than they do for private money I think the mentality you describe would be turned around within a generation.

I agree. This does shore up the argument that people on it have the "loser" mentality, though. They are conditioned to lose by being rewarded for it.

Welfare should pay less and be more unpleasant than private sector work. If it isn't, it is too easy to consider the "safety net" to be a personal hammock in which to laze around in the shade sipping cold drinks while others perform the take that our society needs performed and supporting their lazy arses with the production.

Every able bodied person on the dole should be out to work or be training for work. It might be more expensive in the short run but would be a lot less expensive in the long run.

 

[soot]

I agree. This does shore up the argument that people on it have the "loser" mentality, though. They are conditioned to lose by being rewarded for it.

That doesn't square with something you said earlier in the discussion (something which I agree with, by the way):

I think it's smart to use whatever the rules allow that will profit you the most.

It's all a simple cost/value proposition.

There's a cost in going to MIT to earn a PhD in Applied Mathematics but there's also a lot of value in coming out of such a program, heading over to Wall Street, and writting derivative swap quant code for a hedge fund.

Likewise, there's a cost to accepting that you'll never get rich on welfare but there's also value in not having to go to work a day in your life and being enrolled in Medicare (given what healthcare insurance in the U.S. has become for lower class workers).

In both cases we're talking about a guy doing something that many would consider unethical, but is in no way illegal, in order to game a system that's there for all of our benefit.

Why is the second guy "dumb" or a "loser" for choosing an option of which you're incapable from the perspective of your own ethics and values while the first is a hero for choosing something of which you're incapable from the perspective of ability (and I don't mean that as an insult, as I implied earlier I need a calculator to add and subtract so I don't think there's any shame in not being among the 0.00001% of the human population who can do math at such a rarified level)?

Don't hate the player, right? Hate the game.

That's why I say we need to change the rules of welfare.

It's also why I don't get all mouthy about the "banksters"

Working in financial services I see how financial regulation in the U.S. (and globally for that matter) is fundamentally "broken" to the extent that it's a rigged system.

As a taxpayer I also see how the welfare system is fundamentally broken.

Those who take advantage of either are just people being people.

 

[Papa bull]

Spot, it squares because we have created a system that profits people on it the most by NOT being productive. It conditions them to be "losers". Whe working inevitably profits people the most in the long term, in the short term, staying on the dole is the easy path and a lot of people feel that it is more profitable for them do nothing for a meager existence than to work like everyone else for one that's somewhat more lucrative.