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The recent christian kidnap victims in Iraq:

Stu Ghatze

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The terror group that nabbed these christian peace activists have said that they are spies, ..& have threatened to kill them unless their demands are met.

If they are murdererd does anybody think that it may change the opinions of the anti-war groups, & other peace activists who are so willing to understand them, & the groups that enjoy blaming America first?

Anybody, ...any thoughts?
 

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Stu Ghatze said:
The terror group that nabbed these christian peace activists have said that they are spies, ..& have threatened to kill them unless their demands are met.

If they are murdererd does anybody think that it may change the opinions of the anti-war groups, & other peace activists who are so willing to understand them, & the groups that enjoy blaming America first?

Anybody, ...any thoughts?


Does it change your mind? No? I didn't think so.

No, being against the war from the very beginning, (before Bush attacked Iraq) it certainly doesn't change my outlook, in fact it emboldens my anti-war feelings. We had no business attacking Iraq and more and more people are starting to realize this fact.
 

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Why would the murder of peace activists who wouldn't be in Iraq if there were no war change my opinion of the war?
 

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Do you suppose it has changed their opinion on the war?
 

Stu Ghatze

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mixedmedia said:
Do you suppose it has changed their opinion on the war?




Well now, ..I guess that all depends on IF they are given the ultimate sentence from their kidnappers?

What disturbs me is the fact that the terrorists have got to be able to figure out that these people that they kidnapped are no threat to them, & in fact the christian called; "kidnapees" probably see the terrorists as a "type" of victim.

It is my belief that MANY of these peace activists, & anti-war people seem to think that everybody just wants peace, & love in the world etc., & that they can be entreated to civility, brotherly love & understanding. (very much a mistake especially by the planned out, & brutal attacks & murders committed by terrorists who prey upon non-combatins who have been no threat to anybody, ..just convenient targets for their evil.)
 

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Stu Ghatze said:
Well now, ..I guess that all depends on IF they are given the ultimate sentence from their kidnappers?

What disturbs me is the fact that the terrorists have got to be able to figure out that these people that they kidnapped are no threat to them, & in fact the christian called; "kidnapees" probably see the terrorists as a "type" of victim.

It is my belief that MANY of these peace activists, & anti-war people seem to think that everybody just wants peace, & love in the world etc., & that they can be entreated to civility, brotherly love & understanding. (very much a mistake especially by the planned out, & brutal attacks & murders committed by terrorists who prey upon non-combatins who have been no threat to anybody, ..just convenient targets for their evil.)
I am sure that the terrorists know these people are no threat to them. If they really believe these people are spies why would they be bargaining for their release? They don't care if they are a threat. It's an attempt to gain some advantage. Why should we believe what they say they believe?

I don't think peace activists think that everybody wants peace. They are acting on the behalf of peace. It's what they believe in. These folks in particular were willing to put their life on the line for what they believe. I think they deserve our respect. And we should all just hope and pray they are released unharmed.
 

mixedmedia

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And how exactly is being murdered going to change their opinion on the war? I suspect you are trying to turn this tragedy into a liberal against conservative spat and that's kind of wrong.
 

Stu Ghatze

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mixedmedia said:
I am sure that the terrorists know these people are no threat to them. If they really believe these people are spies why would they be bargaining for their release? They don't care if they are a threat. It's an attempt to gain some advantage. Why should we believe what they say they believe?

I don't think peace activists think that everybody wants peace. They are acting on the behalf of peace. It's what they believe in. These folks in particular were willing to put their life on the line for what they believe. I think they deserve our respect. And we should all just hope and pray they are released unharmed.



I have prayed, & continue to do so. I have a question for you.

Do you believe that they will execute those peace activists as they have said unless their demands are met?

I do not think that the American military is going to release its captives. If America was to do that, ...it would only encourage more of the same, & America would be percieved as weak thus emboldening more, & greater terror activity.

I believe that IF they do execute those peace activist, ..they will reap more hate upon themselves.
 

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Stu Ghatze said:
I have prayed, & continue to do so. I have a question for you.

Do you believe that they will execute those peace activists as they have said unless their demands are met?

I do not think that the American military is going to release its captives. If America was to do that, ...it would only encourage more of the same, & America would be percieved as weak thus emboldening more, & greater terror activity.

I believe that IF they do execute those peace activist, ..they will reap more hate upon themselves.
I have no idea if they will execute them or not. I am under the impression that, relatively speaking, very few groups actually go through with their threatened executions of Westerners, am I right?

I absolutely believe they will reap more hate upon themselves if they do. If by "they" you mean the kidnappers. I was just looking at another thread on this subject and most of the posters were quite explicit that they didn't care if these hostages were killed or not. Turned my stomach, quite frankly.
 
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Great news.

They were found today, bound and gagged in the trunk of a car. They are alive and their captors are in custody. Amen.
 

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KCConservative said:
Great news.

They were found today, bound and gagged in the trunk of a car. They are alive and their captors are in custody. Amen.
Where did you see this?

That is great news.
 

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The terror group that nabbed these christian peace activists have said that they are spies, ..& have threatened to kill them unless their demands are met.

If they are murdererd does anybody think that it may change the opinions of the anti-war groups, & other peace activists who are so willing to understand them, & the groups that enjoy blaming America first?

Anybody, ...any thoughts?
I find it very ironic but it doesn't change my posistion on the subject. I wonder how they got over there? Doesn't anyone have any links on articles about them?
 

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However looking at this group from the point of view of a Muslim fundamentalist these people may seem quite alarming. They are essentially missionaries and that is a no-no with the fundamentalist Muslims. This may be worse to them than an armed invasion, it is a religious invasion and strikes right at the heart of Islam. It is the actions of Christian fundamentalist that stoke the fires of the Muslim fundamentalists shout of "Here come the Crusades again." and they use it as fuel in their communities.

It also gives legitimacy to the idea that George Bush is leading a Christian "holy war" against Islam. We have these missionaries with bible and cross in had and right behind them the US Army. BTW the missionaries were given permission by the administration to go into Iraq immediately after the first round of fighting stopped in 2002.
 

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Inuyasha said:
However looking at this group from the point of view of a Muslim fundamentalist these people may seem quite alarming. They are essentially missionaries and that is a no-no with the fundamentalist Muslims. This may be worse to them than an armed invasion, it is a religious invasion and strikes right at the heart of Islam. It is the actions of Christian fundamentalist that stoke the fires of the Muslim fundamentalists shout of "Here come the Crusades again." and they use it as fuel in their communities.

It also gives legitimacy to the idea that George Bush is leading a Christian "holy war" against Islam. We have these missionaries with bible and cross in had and right behind them the US Army. BTW the missionaries were given permission by the administration to go into Iraq immediately after the first round of fighting stopped in 2002.




I understand exactly what you are saying but.....the difference here is that, Christians do not proselytize with the point of a sword.

Something that many secularists conveniently like to forget, ..as well as the fact is WHY the crusades were carried out in first place, ..which was to STOP the islamic hoards from destroying christianity & judaism in the holyland in the first place. (Sometimes even the crusaders were NOT always kind to the jews either!!)

Nobody is saying that Everything about the Crusades was just, & good; but it was an explanation.

IMO, ..I believe that Islam loves to use what happened during the crusades as an excuse to continue on their present evil course.

Islam also likes to forget their own islamic venture that they forced upon western Europe as well in times past, ..but then the MEDIA never reminds them, or the uninformed of "their" adventuristic past deeds.

Another point that should be made: THat was then, & THIS is now....& what are we observing?

The fanatic muslims are STILL killing in the name of their RELIGION, ..but the christians are NOT!;)
 
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mixedmedia

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Inuyasha said:
However looking at this group from the point of view of a Muslim fundamentalist these people may seem quite alarming. They are essentially missionaries and that is a no-no with the fundamentalist Muslims. This may be worse to them than an armed invasion, it is a religious invasion and strikes right at the heart of Islam. It is the actions of Christian fundamentalist that stoke the fires of the Muslim fundamentalists shout of "Here come the Crusades again." and they use it as fuel in their communities.

It also gives legitimacy to the idea that George Bush is leading a Christian "holy war" against Islam. We have these missionaries with bible and cross in had and right behind them the US Army. BTW the missionaries were given permission by the administration to go into Iraq immediately after the first round of fighting stopped in 2002.
This is a good point.
 

mixedmedia

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Stu Ghatze said:
I understand exactly what you are saying but.....the difference here is that, Christians do not proselytize with the point of a sword.

Something that many secularists conveniently like to forget, ..as well as the fact is WHY the crusades were carried out in first place, ..which was to STOP the islamic hoards from destroying christianity & judaism in the holyland in the first place. (Sometimes even the crusaders were NOT always kind to the jews either!!)

Nobody is saying that Everything about the Crusades was just, & good; but it was an explanation.

IMO, ..I believe that Islam loves to use what happened during the crusades as an excuse to continue on their present evil course.

Islam also likes to forget their own islamic venture that they forced upon western Europe as well in times past, ..but then the MEDIA never reminds them, or the uninformed of "their" adventuristic past deeds.

Another point that should be made: THat was then, & THIS is now....& what are we observing?

The fanatic muslims are STILL killing in the name of their RELIGION, ..but the christians are NOT!;)
Perhaps, but you are talking about a minority of Muslims and any religious group living in their time and place would be likely to have groups that would resort to the same methods of enforcing their worldview. Even Christians.
How does it go: There but for the grace of God go I? Sorry if I messed it up....I'm certainly no expert.
 

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FinnMacCool said:
Why would they do that?
That is a darn good question for which I have no logical answer. Perhaps the religious groups went in as "humanitarian" aid. But either way it is a bad idea given the attitude of the fundamentalist Muslims who would use anything religious to their advantage. I wonder if this was done at all in WWII or Korea. I was in Laos and temporally in Viet Nam and I don't remember any Christian groups or missionaries there then. Maybe they came later.
 

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KCConservative said:
Great news.

They were found today, bound and gagged in the trunk of a car. They are alive and their captors are in custody. Amen.
I can't find anything that says they have been released. Anyone got a link?
 

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Here is the latest so far. it seems reports that they have been released are incorrect.

Palestinian Bishop Pleads for Release of Christian Peace Workers Seized in Iraq
The Lutheran Bishop of the Holy Land has made a depserate appeal for the release of British Professor Norman Kember and three other Christian aid workers kidnapped in Iraq at the weekend.

The Lutheran Bishop of the Holy Land has made an emotional appeal to the kidnappers of four Christian aid workers in Iraq to show mercy by freeing them, reports Ecumenical News International.

The four men, including the British Professor Norman Kember, were abducted by an Iraqi insurgent group calling itself the Swords of Righteousness brigades, according to ENI.

Bishop Munib Younan, a Palestinian, said in a message to ENI Thursday: “I urge you from Jerusalem, the city of peace, to do your utmost to bring about the release of these apostles of peace who are the friends of every oppressed people.”

The four men, which also included, two Canadians and an American, were shown with their captors in video footage broadcast on Qatar-based al-Jazeera television network shortly after they were kidnapped.

In his plea Bishop Younan stressed that the Christian Peacemaker Team members were people of peace who had stood firm with the Palestinians in the face of Israeli occupation.
continue....
http://www.christiantoday.com/news/...hristian.peace.workers.seized.in.iraq/368.htm

This is from todays edition (dec 4)
 

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Inuyasha said:
However looking at this group from the point of view of a Muslim fundamentalist these people may seem quite alarming. They are essentially missionaries and that is a no-no with the fundamentalist Muslims. This may be worse to them than an armed invasion, it is a religious invasion and strikes right at the heart of Islam. It is the actions of Christian fundamentalist that stoke the fires of the Muslim fundamentalists shout of "Here come the Crusades again." and they use it as fuel in their communities.

It also gives legitimacy to the idea that George Bush is leading a Christian "holy war" against Islam. We have these missionaries with bible and cross in had and right behind them the US Army. BTW the missionaries were given permission by the administration to go into Iraq immediately after the first round of fighting stopped in 2002.
The Christian crusaders marched into the Holy land an massacred muslems.

In WWI, Britain got the Iraqis to help fight against the Axis Ottoman Empire, and after "liberating" Iraq occupied the country for decades, puportedly to institute a proper form of Government.

In this war, we justified invading Iraq because they had WMDs, which they did not have. We go in on the promise of "clear and limited" goals of removing Hussein and getting rid of the WMDs. We justify our removal of Hussein on the grounds that he killed lots of Iraqis and tortured people, which are bad things. What do we do? Kill lots of Iraqis and torture people. Now, after achieving our "clear and limited" objectives 2 years ago, our troops are still there, occupying Iraq, killing Iraqis, with a bunch of nebulous promises to withdraw our troops from the fighting when they stop fighting.

Is it any wonder why we have zero credibility?
 
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