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The Reason You're Mad at the NSA

No, I don't - nor do I need to in any great detail. I'm not worried about this program in our country as it stands. I have been rather thoroughly investigated by the federal government, so they already know nearly everything of consequence about me. I'm simply attempting to point out the concerns of those who believe their privacy is sacrosanct. That idea is comfortable, but largely an illusion. I've done my bit for the feds in the past, and now I'd like to believe that my life is mine to live without undue federal intrusion. I think much of what they're attempting to do is a waste of time and undermines the trust of the public that they truly need in order to do their jobs effectively. Snowden has done us no favors.
If the problem for you guys is that Snowden undermined the public trust, then my problem with Snowden is that he didn't do enough damage.

We could dismantle the NSA and every domestic surveillance system right now and we'd be as safe as we were yesterday. What we would lose, however, is Corporations using the Government to spy on Americans, and losing that is a GREAT thing.

But that's just a start. Next we need to crack down on private non-Government augmented Corporate surveillance.

I really don't care what anyone has to say about how we supposedly need this crap. That makes me hope even more that the American public loses confidence and trust in people in power. Lose the people's trust, lose the system in its entirety. Then we can start the process of starting over with a better system. Too bad for those who cling to the status quo: if you get your way we get the USSR all over again, except the corporations are the new Politburo.
 
If the problem for you guys is that Snowden undermined the public trust, then my problem with Snowden is that he didn't do enough damage.

We could dismantle the NSA and every domestic surveillance system right now and we'd be as safe as we were yesterday. What we would lose, however, is Corporations using the Government to spy on Americans, and losing that is a GREAT thing.

But that's just a start. Next we need to crack down on private non-Government augmented Corporate surveillance.

I really don't care what anyone has to say about how we supposedly need this crap. That makes me hope even more that the American public loses confidence and trust in people in power. Lose the people's trust, lose the system in its entirety. Then we can start the process of starting over with a better system. Too bad for those who cling to the status quo: if you get your way we get the USSR all over again, except the corporations are the new Politburo.
Good luck.
 
We could dismantle the NSA and every domestic surveillance system right now and we'd be as safe as we were yesterday.

Umm..... no. Very much no. If we dismantled our ability to conduct SIGINT what would happen is that we would lose a major portion of our ability to track, target, and forestall enemy attacks, making us much less safe.

Taking away the NSA and claiming that we'd still be just as safe is like breaking all the fingers in a boxers' hand and then claiming he ought to do just as well in the ring.
 
Umm..... no. Very much no. If we dismantled our ability to conduct SIGINT what would happen is that we would lose a major portion of our ability to track, target, and forestall enemy attacks, making us much less safe.

Taking away the NSA and claiming that we'd still be just as safe is like breaking all the fingers in a boxers' hand and then claiming he ought to do just as well in the ring.
That's what they said about the German SS and the Soviet Stasi.

We face bigger threats every day from our trigger-happy psychopath police departments than any foreign enemy. Hell, there's the whole MS13 gang problem which neither the NSA nor the FBI even bother with. Both these groups run rampant. Way down the line, somewhere, are foreign enemies. Enemies we made, coincidentally, after we invaded their countries.
 
Umm..... no. Very much no. If we dismantled our ability to conduct SIGINT what would happen is that we would lose a major portion of our ability to track, target, and forestall enemy attacks, making us much less safe.

Taking away the NSA and claiming that we'd still be just as safe is like breaking all the fingers in a boxers' hand and then claiming he ought to do just as well in the ring.

The NSA is not ALL the fingers in our glove.
 
But it doesn't show your name or anything about you. It's just a number.

So they are incapable of finding out where the number goes? What is the point of them collecting the calls then?
 
So they are incapable of finding out where the number goes? What is the point of them collecting the calls then?

Because if they find a certain number is in contact with a known terriost group they can go to court and get an order that would allow them to find out who that number belongs to.
But they have to show the court just cause before they can find out the name of the caller.
 
Hmm, I am not mad at the NSA. Yes, you can quote Benjamin Franklin, but I truly don't care. Is it surprising that a/an Intelligence Agency actually spies? No, not at all. Is it surprising that they spy on their own citizens? No, I wuld be surpised if they didn't.

Wow...and why do you think innocent citizens should be treated like criminals just
because of a few terrorists? You'd be willing to give up the freedoms that your founding
fathers and ancestors DIED for? You're a real patriot.
 
Because if they find a certain number is in contact with a known terriost group they can go to court and get an order that would allow them to find out who that number belongs to.
But they have to show the court just cause before they can find out the name of the caller.

But that's the thing. Under the NDAA they DON'T go to court. You disappear. Also, if they are listening to your phone calls they know ALL about you.
 
But that's the thing. Under the NDAA they DON'T go to court. You disappear. Also, if they are listening to your phone calls they know ALL about you.

They are not listening to your phone calls. They are collcting data.
Just a bunch of phone numbers. Seeing what phone numbers are calling which numbers.
 
The NSA is not ALL the fingers in our glove.

And boxers have two hands and two feet.

But if you're a righty, then only one of those appendages can give you your strong side uppercut. The NSA gets us critical information that nobody else can.
 
That's what they said about the German SS and the Soviet Stasi.

What a fascinating claim. Can you back it up or can I go ahead and invoke Godwin's Law?

We face bigger threats every day from our trigger-happy psychopath police departments than any foreign enemy.

What another fascinating claim. We know that Al-Qaeda has the intention of launching chemical or biological attacks in the United States - can you please link the police department that intends to do the same?

Hell, there's the whole MS13 gang problem which neither the NSA nor the FBI even bother with.

:doh well, the NSA is forbidden from handling the domestic MS13 problem as it doesn't fall within their legal authority inside the United States, where everyone has to be assumed to be a U.S. person. And the FBI generally works with the DEA under DHS auspices when it comes to larger narco-gangs like MS13.

Both these groups run rampant. Way down the line, somewhere, are foreign enemies. Enemies we made, coincidentally, after we invaded their countries.

:doh


If you're going to do this, you need to understand - when you come in here with the kind of education that you can get by barely skimming the tip tops of the non-interventionist argument... you are going to get thoroughly hammered.

But color me curious. When was the last time that the United States invaded (for example) Egypt?
 
They are not listening to your phone calls. They are collcting data.
Just a bunch of phone numbers. Seeing what phone numbers are calling which numbers.

They are TAPPING your phones, computers listen in to the conversations and find keywords. Then the computer sends an alert to an agent and they tap into the phone and see if you are a terrorist. They do not "collect" data.

That's what people thought before Snowden leaked otherwise! This is why Snowden leaked it, a lot of people knew...but were in denial or just plain argumentative about it. Between your phone calls, your text messages and your email the NSA probably knows more about you than you do. Which is NOT what our founding fathers had in mind.
 
They are TAPPING your phones

Um... no. Computers are collecting your point-to-point data and if you start calling terrorist facilitators in Pakistan, then someone will (hopefully) seek a warrant to tap your phone.

computers listen in to the conversations and find keywords. Then the computer sends an alert to an agent and they tap into the phone and see if you are a terrorist. They do not "collect" data.

:doh If they don't collect data, then where are they getting it?


educate yourself

cycle.gif


That's what people thought before Snowden leaked otherwise! This is why Snowden leaked it, a lot of people knew...but were in denial or just plain argumentative about it. Between your phone calls, your text messages and your email the NSA probably knows more about you than you do. Which is NOT what our founding fathers had in mind.

:doh The NSA knows more about you than you do?

:roll:



Libertarians would be a much more powerful political force in our society if they could keep their own membership from doing them so much damage.
 
Um... no. Computers are collecting your point-to-point data and if you start calling terrorist facilitators in Pakistan, then someone will (hopefully) seek a warrant to tap your phone.



:doh If they don't collect data, then where are they getting it?


educate yourself

cycle.gif




:doh The NSA knows more about you than you do?

:roll:



Libertarians would be a much more powerful political force in our society if they could keep their own membership from doing them so much damage.

You are missing the point...under the NDAA they don't need and they don't get warrants. They have the power to tap our phones and listen in whenever they want. Regardless of whether they claim they don't abuse this power or not, they have this power and they shouldn't.

And it's not crazy to believe that the NSA knows more about me than I do. I don't have servers racked up with my own phone calls. I can forget phone calls and conversations, the NSA keeps it. This is what Snowden leaked.

Libertarians wouldn't be Libertarians if we bowed down and accepted the wills of others because they consider us "loony". Libertarians being a powerful force would be useless if we weren't a powerful force of our own ideals. We believe in freedom, if you consider that loony than so be it. If you want the NSA to tap your phones and invade your privacy...SO BE IT. But don't expect me to sit down and take it, because I will not and I will never will. I don't care if half the country is nuked. It would be a huge tragedy, but it would not be right nor would it even help to tap every citizens' phones without warrants or due cause.
 
You are missing the point...

No. The reason for this disconnect is that when we talk about the Intelligence Cycle and U.S. intelligence processes, I have a dim idea of what I am talking about, and you are either making crap up or listening to those who do.

under the NDAA they don't need and they don't get warrants. They haave the power to tap our phones and listen in whenever they want. Regardless of whether they claim they don't abuse this power or not, they have this power and they shouldn't.

That is incorrect. NSA still falls under Title 10 restrictions and functions as an agency of the Department of Defense, meaning that it does indeed require a warrant to tap the phones of American Persons.

And it's not crazy to believe that the NSA knows more about me than I do. I don't have servers racked up with my own phone calls. I can forget phone calls and conversations, the NSA keeps it. This is what Snowden leaked.

You don't appear to have much idea at all what Snowden leaked, or about the particulars of the program. I might suggest you do some background research before repeating whatever vapours you have picked up from the tinfoil-hat crowd.

Libertarians wouldn't be Libertarians if we bowed down and accepted the wills of others because they consider us "loony". Libertarians being a powerful force would be useless if we weren't a powerful force of our own ideals. We believe in freedom, if you consider that loony than so be it. If you want the NSA to tap your phones and invade your privacy...SO BE IT. But don't expect me to sit down and take it, because I will not and I will never will.

It's not the freedom that's loony. It's the inability to discuss things as they are rather than turning everything into either a heroic narrative of perfection or a nightmarish monster that marks the movement as one that is regrettably immature.

Stuff like this, for instance:

I don't care if half the country is nuked.

marks a complete lack of empathy for the lives and well-being of others, as well as a narcissistic assumption that are the hallmarks of immature logic.
 
No. The reason for this disconnect is that when we talk about the Intelligence Cycle and U.S. intelligence processes, I have a dim idea of what I am talking about, and you are either making crap up or listening to those who do.



That is incorrect. NSA still falls under Title 10 restrictions and functions as an agency of the Department of Defense, meaning that it does indeed require a warrant to tap the phones of American Persons.



You don't appear to have much idea at all what Snowden leaked, or about the particulars of the program. I might suggest you do some background research before repeating whatever vapours you have picked up from the tinfoil-hat crowd.



It's not the freedom that's loony. It's the inability to discuss things as they are rather than turning everything into either a heroic narrative of perfection or a nightmarish monster that marks the movement as one that is regrettably immature.

Stuff like this, for instance:



marks a complete lack of empathy for the lives and well-being of others, as well as a narcissistic assumption that are the hallmarks of immature logic.

Ha! I love how you split up my quote and leave things out to twist my words into something they are not. I said the country being nuked would be a huge tragedy, however it would still not constitute probable cause for tapping ALL phones, nor would it even help!

I would appreciate it if you displayed my whole quotes so that people can see my real arguments.

Also, you are the ones inhaling vapors. Have you actually read a Libertarian blog? We don't turn every story into an extreme catastrophe. And we do not wear tin-foil hats. If you actually opened your eyes for a moment you'd see you are being lied to. It's so obvious it's seriously frustrating me.

I know full well what Snowden leaked, I read his full message...did you?

The NSA has no restrictions. If they believe someone to be a terrorist(which is rather vague) they can tap the phones, read the emails and read the texts of any citizen they want in the name of "safety". Did you actually read the NDAA and the Patriot Act???
 
But they have to show the court just cause before they can find out the name of the caller.

They already know the caller so exactly why do they need to know who I called for pizza or for any other reason?
 
So they are incapable of finding out where the number goes? What is the point of them collecting the calls then?

Are you serious? They compare a bulk of numbers to ones that are known to be used by terrorist members, if you make phone calls frequently to numbers that are flagged by the NSA then the FBI will launch an investigation. To simplify it, they do not know who the number belongs to until they launch an investigation.
 
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