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The Real German Holocaust

Aryan Imperium said:
No,you started this.You passed judgement on Irving`s work and yet you have never read a single book.Therefore I am forced to surmise that you lack any credibility when discussing Irving or any aspect of historical revisionism.
I have posted all the evidence that I need to on this thread on various aspects of the murder of German people by the allies,whether this be by carpet bombing during the war or massacres and atrocities carried out against men,women and children after the work,ethnic cleansings or planned starvation.The evidence is there,I have no intention of repeating myself just because you are too lazy to read it.

This thread was started by you, in which you support the idea that the bombing of Dresden was the 'Real German Holocaust'. You use Irving’s work to support this, yet Irving himself has changed his mind on two pertinent facts:

He has reduced his Dresden casualty numbers.

He was originally a holocaust denier, but has repented:

David Irving’s own words about Auschwitz said:
"I've repented. I've no intention of repeating those views. That would be historically stupid and I am not a stupid man. I full accept this, it's a fact. The discussion on Auschwitz, the gas chambers and the holocaust is finished. It's useless to dispute it."

So, his whole idea of comparing Dresden to the holocaust has been destroyed by Irving, but there are still remnants of his old works that people still read and believe. The number of people killed at Dresden is either 50,000 to 100,000 if you believe Irving’s latest figures or 25,000 to 35,000 if you believe other historians.

He had made the mistake, as pointed out in the court summary, of exaggerating German casualties and reducing German culpability

Court summary: said:
In his account of the bombing of Dresden Irving persistently exaggerates the number of casualties, so enabling him to make comparisons between the number of civilians killed in Allied bombing raids with the number of Jews killed in the camps.
As for you personal insults: I read a newspaper article by Irving many years ago, and I believed it. It said that 250,000 people died in Dresden. He was then a respected historian. However, since then other historians questioned his data and (because I have an open mind) I was open to other ideas. And (because I am not lazy) I read their books and articles.

I simply will not read a book by an author who admits his works are wrong, not just in the examples I’ve given above, but in other cases at court.
 
I think that there are wider issues at stake here.
One of which is the issue of freedom of speach.This is something that Americans have a difficulty in appreciating that in many European countries there is no such right or the right is so curtailed by legislation to make it meaningless.
Why should Irving or anyone for that matter have to face the prospect of 20 years in prison,a foreign prison at that for questioning an aspect of history?Is this not the historian`s role,or one of them?
Secondly why should any aspect of history be "off limits" for historians to debate or question? Is this not another form of "inquisition"?
 
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Gottos: a question, I have seen the symbol on your avatar before, it is often used by Nazi groups, are you a Nazi? I'll assume your not unless you tell me you are.
 
Comrade Brian said:
Gottos: a question, I have seen the symbol on your avatar before, it is often used by Nazi groups, are you a Nazi? I'll assume your not unless you tell me you are.

A "nazi"??!!
What symbol exactly are you referring to?:confused:
 
The one on your avatar, I've often seen it used by Nazis, especially the Russian ones.
 
Aryan Imperium said:
I do not "hate jews".Your words,not mine.I merely hate what they have done and are doing to the world in which they exploit.
You are the one that needs to read a history book my boy.Stange enough I was passing exams in History when your parents were wearing short pants.
Now run along,there`s a good child!

You practically said you hate Jews, and if you do not hate them, why are you part of a party that thought it was just fine and dandy to kill them off by the millions?


Duke
 
Aryan Imperium said:
realist said:
That is the difference between the likes of me and you.We have an eternal Weltsanschauung that is as old as the hills,the laws of nature. What do you have? Nothing really that you care that much about.
It is an amazing thing about "democrats", they are the most dictatorial and intolerant people that I know and yet none of you really cares that much about your precious "democracy" to die for it as long as your trivial little comfortable private worlds are not disturbed. What half lives you all live,little better than card board cut outs,shadows of men.

Well you underestimate the likes of me, which is typical of the occult filth of your kind, same as in world war 2? What would it take for you to get some common sense. It's a long hard road when your unconscious.
 
What an irony.

Aryam talked of deas such as think for youself, yet he can't think for himself!

Turns out, hos best friend, David Irving, is a liar and has renaunced his racist ideas. So where does that leave you, Aryan. You can either be with your mate Dave (and agree he is a liar) or take your own course. But wwhere is your evidence without Dave, you are stuffed. Bye bye Aryan.
 
Aryan Imperium said:
http://globalfire.tv/nj/03en/history/extermination.htm

On German TV (ARD-"Titel, Thesen, Temperamente", 17 Nov. 2002, 22:45h) German historian and author, Jörg Friedrich, called the bombing of the German cities during World War II "the slaughter of the Millennium". Mr. Friedrich is the author of "Der Brand - Die Bombardierung der deutschen Städte durch die Alliierten" (The Fire - The bombardment of the German Cities by the Allies). According to Mr. Friedrich more than 1000 German cities were bombarded and a large number of them were completely burned to the ground, people inside the conflagration were turned to ashes.


We can always resort to the "you started it!" argument. This was war... the Holocaust was systematic ethnocide of gypsies, jews, homosexuals, and other minority groups within Europe. You judge which is worse: trying to win a legitimate conflict or exerminating your own people....
 
I remember someone telling me who served in the British army during WW2 that both sides kept away from targeting civilians until a German bomber, off course destroyed a British town.?.
After that the gloves came off.
 
Aryan Imperium said:
http://globalfire.tv/nj/03en/history/extermination.htm

On German TV (ARD-"Titel, Thesen, Temperamente", 17 Nov. 2002, 22:45h) German historian and author, Jörg Friedrich, called the bombing of the German cities during World War II "the slaughter of the Millennium". Mr. Friedrich is the author of "Der Brand - Die Bombardierung der deutschen Städte durch die Alliierten" (The Fire - The bombardment of the German Cities by the Allies). According to Mr. Friedrich more than 1000 German cities were bombarded and a large number of them were completely burned to the ground, people inside the conflagration were turned to ashes.

1000 german cities were bombed. Oh noes! That's almost as bad as killing 6 million jews!


Oh wait... no its not. You are an idiot.
 
cherokee said:
I remember someone telling me who served in the British army during WW2 that both sides kept away from targeting civilians until a German bomber, off course destroyed a British town.?.
After that the gloves came off.

A German bomber dropped its load on London by mistake, Britain bombed German cities in retaliation, Germany "blitzed" London, and things got ugly quickly... as I recall, the switching to civilian targets by Germany was what allowed the RAF to win the Battle of Britain.
 
The German People supported the Nazi's willingly. What ever was done to them they deserved and was too good for them.
 
JOHNYJ said:
The German People supported the Nazi's willingly. What ever was done to them they deserved and was too good for them.

That is a lie.

The Nazi party lost the popular vote in Germany, and overthrew the government. Also, many German citizens opposed the Nazis and sabotaged their movements.

Why don't you come back when you know what you are talking about?


Duke
 
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Duke said:
That is a lie.

The Nazi party lost the popular vote in Germany, and overthrew the government. Also, many German citizens opposed the Nazis and sabotaged their movements.

Why don't you come back when you know what you are talking about?


Duke

The Nazi's were the Majority party and Von Hindenberg Made Hitler Chancellor.
The German people supported the Nazi's hell, even the Catholic church supported them in the begining.
There is no real proof of any opposition to the Nazi's. among the majority of Germans. After the war you couldn't find any Nazi's in Germany, what a joke.
 
The Nazi party lost the popular vote in Germany, and overthrew the government. Also, many German citizens opposed the Nazis and sabotaged their movements.

IIRC (And I'm going on memory here, so bear with me), the Nazis failed to gain a majority in the Weimar parliament in 1928 and 1930, though the 1930 election gained them about a third of the seats in the Reichstag. They won a slim majority in 1932. By 1938, however, they had engineered enough popular consensus that there was very little resistance to their programs. Of course, you wouldn't expect them to. Once they got rid of the Jews, the Communists and other left-wing types, the homosexuals and Gypsies, and other undesirables, and made life better for everyone else, there would have been very little resistance to their programs. In general, I think when someone says that the German people supported the Third Reich, it is the enfranchised Germans that remained citizens in good standing by 1938 that they refer to. And there were plenty of those.

There were a few people who acted against the Third Reich from within Germany. Kurt Gerhardt comes to mind.

I'm of two minds about the German people. You have to understand where they were coming from to understand how Nazi Germany behaved. The poverty of the Weimar Republic was crippling for the average German. The treat of Versailles imposed such reparations that there was little hope Germany could ever lift itself from poverty. And though the damage done by Germany in WWI to much of the rest of Europe was considerable, it wasn't as if WWI was entirely the Germans' fault.

But how does this justify the actions of not only the Third Reich itself, but Nazi Germany in general? The short answer is that it doesn't--nothing does or can. It is clear to me that the German people were happy not only to get out of poverty, but also to have someone to blame not only for their failure in WWI, but for their situation in general. The Jews were an easy target because anti-semitism went back to rogue elements of the First Crusade. Such was the religious zeal of the crusaders, and their frustration at failing to secure the Christian East as they envisioned, that slaughter of Jews became fairly common, along with the folk tales that "justified" those slaughters among the common people. Given Germany's relative political disunity compared to other countries in Europe from roughly 1450 through 1750 (Italy excepted), it's not surprising that these tales, and the traditions of anti-semitism, survived among the common people.

Joseph Goebbels siezed on this, and painted the Jews as the reason that the average German family was struggling in poverty and despair. All of that said, it is difficult, if not impossible, to imagine the horror of the holocaust. But it did happen, we know it happened, though why it happened continues to puzzle.

The Einsatzgruppen were made up of ordinary people from all walks of German life. They were neither especially rich, nor especially poor. They were often not from occupations that would be used to dealing out death and mayhem. Yet, the bald fact is that these ordinary German men raided peaceful villages of sleeping peasants, rounded up the Jews, and took every last man woman and child into the woods, where they shot them in the backs of the heads. I think it must take a genuine sociopath to feel good about shooting a little child as he or she lays naked on the corpses of people who they knew, and who were alive only moments before. I have tried my absolute best to understand this act and what it might take to drive me to it, and I must conclude that the people who did those things were not remotely like me, because I just couldn't do it. It would take a monster, a thing black and devoid of reason, of heart, of soul, to commit such acts, day in, day out. The imagining of it makes me sick. But the bald fact is that this is what ordinary Germans did with great zeal and vim.

I think we can only go so far in understanding this kind of brutality. And that scares me more than anything, because the lesson we ought to learn from Nazi Germany is that, with the right buttons pushed, almost anyone can be made to abandon all sense and commit acts unspeakably bloody and horrific.

As to the original post--I agree that firebombing the German cities and killing civilians was horrible. What the Germans did to other countries they invaded or bombed was arguably worse. The two do not balance each other and both ought to be decried. There was nothing good about World War II, and it still controls our destiny more than most people realize.
 
JOHNYJ said:
The Nazi's were the Majority party and Von Hindenberg Made Hitler Chancellor.
The German people supported the Nazi's hell, even the Catholic church supported them in the begining.
There is no real proof of any opposition to the Nazi's. among the majority of Germans. After the war you couldn't find any Nazi's in Germany, what a joke.

No real proof of opposition to the Nazis? So the SS really did not exist? They really did not go around killing dissidents? They were not a brutal group of murderers who killed anyone who did not agree with them, becasue everyone agreed with them? Do I really have to get you the numerous sources that I could find? Ask me, and I will give you all the proof you need.

Who said that after the war you could not find any Nazis in Germany? Are you trying to put words in my mouth?


Duke
 
They won a slim majority in 1932.

I think they had 35% of the vote then, but, they also had more armed men than the Wiemar Army in the streets. Hitler demanded to be made Chancellor, and when his last remaining rival, Schleicher, refused, Hitler had him shot and took the title anyway; after Schelicher's death there was no one to refuse him the Chancellorship. The Army just stood by and looked the other way.

The treat of Versailles imposed such reparations that there was little hope Germany could ever lift itself from poverty.

The treaty didn't cause mass poverty in Germany. They were given 50 years to pay the first half, hardly onerous, and they defaulted on it anyway, and never paid more than $4 billion of it by 1938, not exactly crushing debtwise. The reason the country was broke was because the Republic refused to tax the wealthy aristocrats, nor would they tax the monopoly industrialists. The rest of the country had been bled dry by the war, then left to rot by the 'nobility' that wanted the war in the first place. Goering, for instance, globe trotted around living the high life as an international playboy, as did many other Junkers and big money men the entire two decades between the WW's.

And though the damage done by Germany in WWI to much of the rest of Europe was considerable, it wasn't as if WWI was entirely the Germans' fault.

Two recent books establish conclusively they kicked it off, and also invaded France on a lie that France Attacked them. No different than the U.S. fabricating an 'attack' in the Gulf Of Tonkin in 1965, and now Iraq being invaded under false pretexts to suit the upper classes here.

Good post all in all; I just had these three snivels to comment on.
 
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