The Qur'an in three verses

[OrphanSlug]

That's because it explicitly says to, and not just in the moment, but in an ongoing sense.

Technically, with consideration for context and when some of that was written (and why,) there are several verses in the Old Testament that command killing for various reasons.

Mohamed did not face a single physically hostile act until he started raiding Meccan caravans.

Yes and No, historians may disagree on everyone's motivations but what is very true is the tone changed the moment Mohammad decided conditions dictated new benchmarks for being of that faith.

Not anything to do with Jesus. He told a parable about the 10 minas, but that doesn't translate to a command to attack and subjugate for Christians. There is nothing in the NT even remotely like verse 9:29 of the Qur'an, "Fight those who do not believe in Allah or in the Last Day and who do not consider unlawful what Allah and His Messenger have made unlawful and who do not adopt the religion of truth from those who were given the Scripture - [fight] until they give the jizyah willingly while they are humbled.".

I am not talking about Jesus, I am specifically referring to the OT for a reason. Across all the Abrahamic Religions there is clear messages of violence, and frankly stories of absolute insanity and lunacy.

Just to be clear the existence of the NT does not negate that the Bible held up on Sunday still includes much of that text irregardless of the convenient explanation in the NT that God is not near as insane and homicidal as the OT makes him out to be.

Unfortunately, Islam's curve ended with the death of Mohamed. Islam is not USED as a reason. It IS the reason. That is the difference that people just hate to recognize.

To some degree that is probably right. What I was getting at is of the three Abrahamic Religions it is Islam that goes the furthest to bake into the text the idea of religious authority and some means of governance that includes social order. We can argue all day about is the reason or used as a reason, but the reality is the text itself is by far the easiest to weaponize and use as excuse to kill someone. Even by exchanging your own life to do it.

The old adage... science flies you to the moon seeking new, religion flies you into a building in a fit of rage.

Islam amplifies the adage.

PS. Thanks for showing people what a reasoned response looks like.

I try, does not always work so well but thank you for the kind words.

 

[Yasureoktoo]

Your characterization of both a religion and its adherents is hate based. That's clear to everyone not in the Islamophobic victim-boy cult.

Actually Islam is hate based.

 

[Yasureoktoo]

Most Christians and Muslims ignore the hateful parts of their holy book.

The problem there is that christians have only a couple verses in the entire new testament to ignore
Muslims would have to Ignore 40 volumes of Taburi, and 800 pages of Ishaq.
muhammed would all but disappear from the religion.

 

[TypicalRussian]

here we go again:roll:

 

[TypicalRussian]

Actually Islam is hate based.

no its not

 

[RAMOSS]

The Qur'an has two very distinct 'Testaments'. The first is comprised of the surahs created in the first 12 years (610 - 622 CE) when Mohamed lived in his home city of Mecca. He spent those years trying to convert the pagans to monotheism and to accept him as God's messenger. His recruitment method was to endlessly recite Old Testament stories of God's wrath to them in a failed attempt to scare them into compliance. During that time he introduced almost nothing new to those stories, which meant that Islam to that point was indistinguishable from Judaism except for the fact that he was God's final prophet. The entire period can be defined by verse 29:68 "Who does more wrong than he who invents a lie against Allah or rejects the Truth when it reaches him? Is there not a home in Hell for those who reject Faith?".

The second (622 - 632 CE) began when Mohamed relocated to Medina, turned Islam into a warrior religion, and introduced all the rules that finally made Islam definable as a unique entity. He began raiding Meccan caravans and the wars were on. Verse 9:111 sums up God's expectations of his servants, "Allah hath bought from the believers their lives and their wealth because the Garden will be theirs: they shall fight in the way of Allah and shall slay and be slain.".

One thing that did not change was God's hatred of all things and people infidel the entire time. Verse 2:98 says it all, "Allah is the enemy of unbelievers".

You seem obsessed with the Quran, trying to say how evil it is. Why? There isn't any Muslims posting on this subforum, and very few even show up here at all. Out of context quotes and ministrations to people who don't care doesn't seem productive.

 

[stevecanuck]

Technically, with consideration for context and when some of that was written (and why,) there are several verses in the Old Testament that command killing for various reasons.



Yes and No, historians may disagree on everyone's motivations but what is very true is the tone changed the moment Mohammad decided conditions dictated new benchmarks for being of that faith.



I am not talking about Jesus, I am specifically referring to the OT for a reason. Across all the Abrahamic Religions there is clear messages of violence, and frankly stories of absolute insanity and lunacy.

Just to be clear the existence of the NT does not negate that the Bible held up on Sunday still includes much of that text irregardless of the convenient explanation in the NT that God is not near as insane and homicidal as the OT makes him out to be.



To some degree that is probably right. What I was getting at is of the three Abrahamic Religions it is Islam that goes the furthest to bake into the text the idea of religious authority and some means of governance that includes social order. We can argue all day about is the reason or used as a reason, but the reality is the text itself is by far the easiest to weaponize and use as excuse to kill someone. Even by exchanging your own life to do it.

The old adage... science flies you to the moon seeking new, religion flies you into a building in a fit of rage.

Islam amplifies the adage.



I try, does not always work so well but thank you for the kind words.

The thing that most people simply don't realize is that the first 2/3 of the Qur'an (chronologically) is nothing more than the OT as told by Mohamed. Where Islam and Christianity part ways is when Mohamed moved to Medina and started wars, and the bible starts the NT and preaches love and peace.

 

[stevecanuck]

You seem obsessed with the Quran, trying to say how evil it is. Why? There isn't any Muslims posting on this subforum, and very few even show up here at all. Out of context quotes and ministrations to people who don't care doesn't seem productive.

Ah, the old out-of-context dodge. Please give us the 'correct' context of those verses. I await your learned treatise.

 

[RAMOSS]

Ah, the old out-of-context dodge. Please give us the 'correct' context of those verses. I await your learned treatise.

It's not a dodge. It's an observation of the way either people who are trying to slam a specific religion, or promote a specific religion work. As for that, I am not obsessed with Islam, I just don't care about it. You are obsessed in an unhealthy manner.

 

[stevecanuck]

It's not a dodge. It's an observation of the way either people who are trying to slam a specific religion, or promote a specific religion work. As for that, I am not obsessed with Islam, I just don't care about it. You are obsessed in an unhealthy manner.

Sooooo, that's a 'no' on backing up your out-of-context claim. What a surprise!

 

[RAMOSS]

Sooooo, that's a 'no' on backing up your out-of-context claim. What a surprise!

I could, in fact, I did look up that verse. It turns out the words you push for that verse in translation only show up in anti-muslim sites. Surprise.

This link has that verse, and it does not use the words you claim i tdoes. It give several parrell translation, and not one have that one line it it, just things that are similar, but mean somthing else when you look at the whole paragraph.

The Quranic Arabic Corpus - Translation

 

[stevecanuck]

I could, in fact, I did look up that verse. It turns out the words you push for that verse in translation only show up in anti-muslim sites. Surprise.

This link has that verse, and it does not use the words you claim i tdoes. It give several parrell translation, and not one have that one line it it, just things that are similar, but mean somthing else when you look at the whole paragraph.

The Quranic Arabic Corpus - Translation

Errmmmmmmm, you need to read that again. Hint: look at the Pickthall version. I did a direct copy/paste from it.

Now, look at all the other translations, and you'll see they ALL say essentially the same thing. All of them.

Fail.

 

[RAMOSS]

Errmmmmmmm, you need to read that again. Hint: look at the Pickthall version. I did a direct copy/paste from it.

Now, look at all the other translations, and you'll see they ALL say essentially the same thing. All of them.

Fail.

And, not one mean what you say it means. Your point?

 

[Nickyjo]

What did I get wrong? Did I misquote? Did I mischaracterize? Please be specific.

The question is why are you invested in trashing Islam more than other religions?

 

[Nickyjo]

The thing that most people simply don't realize is that the first 2/3 of the Qur'an (chronologically) is nothing more than the OT as told by Mohamed. Where Islam and Christianity part ways is when Mohamed moved to Medina and started wars, and the bible starts the NT and preaches love and peace.

Tell that to the Grand Inquisitor.

 

[stevecanuck]

And, not one mean what you say it means. Your point?

Ouch!! Warn me when you move those goal posts! Those things are heavy.

 

[OrphanSlug]

The thing that most people simply don't realize is that the first 2/3 of the Qur'an (chronologically) is nothing more than the OT as told by Mohamed. Where Islam and Christianity part ways is when Mohamed moved to Medina and started wars, and the bible starts the NT and preaches love and peace.

Which is no different than anything else written down ultimately for religion from roughly ~4000 BC to about ~700 AD.

The sheer volume of myths, stories, and customs that floated around the greater middle east region into what we call Europe today on one side and what we call Africa today on the other was foundational in someone of education noting these things that found their way into various religious text.

The OT itself is filled with stories that are neither original or unique from the period, they are not even unique among monotheistic views let alone the polytheistic notations from much earlier.

Mohammad was not alone in doing something with text before him, altered for whatever reason and motivation.

The point being we can look back across history and see this period as monumental in generating the text today some will hold up as reason for acts of violence and lunacy.

Islam may be the easiest to weaponize, but that faith is by no means alone in capability in finding insane reason buried in bronze age myth to end someone else's life.

 

[zyzygy]

It's not a dodge. It's an observation of the way either people who are trying to slam a specific religion, or promote a specific religion work. As for that, I am not obsessed with Islam, I just don't care about it. You are obsessed in an unhealthy manner.

The vast majority of Muslims ignore the violent parts of the Koran. I don't see what the problem is.

 

[blarg]

Christianity HAS always been a peaceful religion. Christians, not so much.

that sounds like a ****ign stupid thing to say why is it not?

 

[Yasureoktoo]

Try reading some history! :lamo:lamo

He is talking about the content of the religion, not the history of the people who claimed it.

religion has always been a common denominator for groups of people, and a call to arms.

Islam is the only one I can think of where it is spelled out in the writings of the religion.

 

[Yasureoktoo]

You seem obsessed with the Quran, trying to say how evil it is. Why? There isn't any Muslims posting on this subforum, and very few even show up here at all. Out of context quotes and ministrations to people who don't care doesn't seem productive.

'Out of context" is a common excuse for people who have no idea what they are talking aboult.

When questioned about a quote, I like to post.
Who wrote it
Who the audience was
When it happened, the chronology
What was happening at the time..
The reality is that when you explain the correct "Context", It is usually worse.

 

[Yasureoktoo]

The question is why are you invested in trashing Islam more than other religions?

Islam probably deserves it more than any other.
Most of the religion is how they deal with us.

 

[Yasureoktoo]

The vast majority of Muslims ignore the violent parts of the Koran. I don't see what the problem is.

People are quick to toss in the Qur'an, as though those are the only writings.
The Qur'an is 14% of Islamic text, and is not the juicy stuff.
The bio's of Muhammed are the real problem.

And it's not the individual muslims who read the stuff and get nuts that are the peoblem.
It's mainly the clerics, and Imans, who did study the religion, and gather followers.

 

[Yasureoktoo]

You think spewers of hate such as in the OP have not seen all the counters before? It's a cult. They'll never hear you. Ironic, isn't it.

All religions start out as cults.
It's when they gain money and power, they become religions.

 

[stevecanuck]

Which is no different than anything else written down ultimately for religion from roughly ~4000 BC to about ~700 AD.

The sheer volume of myths, stories, and customs that floated around the greater middle east region into what we call Europe today on one side and what we call Africa today on the other was foundational in someone of education noting these things that found their way into various religious text.

The OT itself is filled with stories that are neither original or unique from the period, they are not even unique among monotheistic views let alone the polytheistic notations from much earlier.

Mohammad was not alone in doing something with text before him, altered for whatever reason and motivation.

The point being we can look back across history and see this period as monumental in generating the text today some will hold up as reason for acts of violence and lunacy.

Islam may be the easiest to weaponize, but that faith is by no means alone in capability in finding insane reason buried in bronze age myth to end someone else's life.

I'm good with this analysis until the last line. There's a big difference between 'finding a reason' and 'being the reason'. Read 9:111 again and you'll see there's just no escaping the message. God is trading eternity in Heaven for joining his army. "They fight in the cause of Allah. They kill and are killed". I don't see how it could be more clear.