The Qur'an in three verses

[Daisy]

No I'm not afraid. The Lord has promised me entrance to Heaven if I repent my sins. I do so daily, if not more often.

And your continuing vague posting makes no sense...except to you I guess.

If you were truly prepared for a debate on your faith, you'd be very specific...as is my question.

:shrug: So apparently, you 'got nuthin''

Sin is inevitable...the practice of sin is a choice which there is no longer a sacrifice/forgiveness for...

"For if we practice sin willfully after having received the accurate knowledge of the truth, there is no longer any sacrifice for sins left," Hebrews 10:26

 

[Lursa]

It's not about being smart. It's about living with the 'knowledge' that all differentiation between right and wrong is defined in the qur'an. If a "right" has not been specifically mentioned, it simply does not exist. The concept of separation of mosque and state does not exist in Islam.



Correct. Christians now (finally) realize that the separation of church and state is an actual thing that they cannot do anything about (even if they wanted to, which many absolutely do not).

They dont have to have separation of church and state. Theocracies dont :roll:

However I didnt see you explain that they really cant comprehend free will outside their religion. I have read many current autobiographies of (mostly women) people living in Saudi Arabia, Afghanistan, Iran, etc and they all understand the Western world well (they do have Internet, universities have in the past discussed democracy and it is no secret now) and discuss how they all attempt to live out real lives outside of the rigidity of Islam. How the moment they get on an airliner, they are changing their clothes, removing the coverings, etc.

Sorry, the people living in those theocracies know exactly what's going on and what rights are. Many of them, esp. the men, go to school here or in the UK.

This is the barely coherent and grammatically inept speech of a man who desperately wants to be able to claim that he "cured coronavirus."

That's it, in a nutshell. When we do get a handle on this crisis, he wants to be able to pull out footage and declare "I called it! I said use this! I said try this! I told them to do this, it was my idea!" He's just doing it with lots of stupid stuff because he doesnt want to miss an opportunity. He's afraid 'the big one' will be mentioned and he wont get credit for it.

It's all about declaring himself the savior of the cv crisis and we'll hear all about it, esp in his campaign. (Which is basically each of his press briefings these days) --- Lursa

 

[Lursa]

Sin is inevitable...the practice of sin is a choice which there is no longer a sacrifice/forgiveness for...

"For if we practice sin willfully after having received the accurate knowledge of the truth, there is no longer any sacrifice for sins left," Hebrews 10:26

Thanks for the obvious. :shrug: I never ever even implied that I sin intentionally....your dogmatically biased judgements make your perceptions false and foolish.

I guess if you cant answer my questions honestly and directly to support YOUR beliefs, it makes you feel better to reiterate my posts?

Coolio.

This is the barely coherent and grammatically inept speech of a man who desperately wants to be able to claim that he "cured coronavirus."

That's it, in a nutshell. When we do get a handle on this crisis, he wants to be able to pull out footage and declare "I called it! I said use this! I said try this! I told them to do this, it was my idea!" He's just doing it with lots of stupid stuff because he doesnt want to miss an opportunity. He's afraid 'the big one' will be mentioned and he wont get credit for it.

It's all about declaring himself the savior of the cv crisis and we'll hear all about it, esp in his campaign. (Which is basically each of his press briefings these days) --- Lursa

 

[stevecanuck]

They dont have to have separation of church and state. Theocracies dont :roll:

Yeah, that's pretty much what I said.

However I didnt see you explain that they really cant comprehend free will outside their religion. I have read many current autobiographies of (mostly women) people living in Saudi Arabia, Afghanistan, Iran, etc and they all understand the Western world well (they do have Internet, universities have in the past discussed democracy and it is no secret now) and discuss how they all attempt to live out real lives outside of the rigidity of Islam. How the moment they get on an airliner, they are changing their clothes, removing the coverings, etc.

Sorry, the people living in those theocracies know exactly what's going on and what rights are. Many of them, esp. the men, go to school here or in the UK.

You're talking about those who don't want to live under Islam's restrictions. I've said several times such people exist. I'm talking about people like Valery who are dedicated to Islam's 7th century model.

 

[Lursa]

Yeah, that's pretty much what I said.



You're talking about those who don't want to live under Islam's restrictions. I've said several times such people exist. I'm talking about people like Valery who are dedicated to Islam's 7th century model.

I havent seen anything that shows there are more "Valerys" than people that dont want to follow it or are "Muslims in name only". Really...if you live in some of those countries, you dont have a choice (hence, the label 'theocracy.'). Where's that data? And then show how their existence affects the danger you claim exists for the US.

This is the barely coherent and grammatically inept speech of a man who desperately wants to be able to claim that he "cured coronavirus."

That's it, in a nutshell. When we do get a handle on this crisis, he wants to be able to pull out footage and declare "I called it! I said use this! I said try this! I told them to do this, it was my idea!" He's just doing it with lots of stupid stuff because he doesnt want to miss an opportunity. He's afraid 'the big one' will be mentioned and he wont get credit for it.

It's all about declaring himself the savior of the cv crisis and we'll hear all about it, esp in his campaign. (Which is basically each of his press briefings these days) --- Lursa

 

[Highlanders]

I don't have your agenda, so why did it imply anything other than face value.

Are you aware of your agenda..... I am.

 

[Highlanders]

Nope. The qur'an post-dates the other two and says many different things. Do the bible and torah say Jews are like donkeys who can carry books, but not understand them? The qur'an does.

The Old Testament does carry these words, as it too is part of the Koran. I have a long memory, from bible class as a child.

But everything you deem important is negative regarding the muslem religion. Have you never seen the absolutely beautiful workmanship muslems produce. That beauty is reflective of the beauty of its religious majesty, love of there creator, not bitter, or sterile as you would have people believe in your comments, I can only pity you, from where you come, it must be a very baron and lonely existence.

 

[stevecanuck]

The Old Testament does carry these words, as it too is part of the Koran. I have a long memory, from bible class as a child.

But everything you deem important is negative regarding the muslem religion. Have you never seen the absolutely beautiful workmanship muslems produce. That beauty is reflective of the beauty of its religious majesty, love of there creator, not bitter, or sterile as you would have people believe in your comments, I can only pity you, from where you come, it must be a very baron and lonely existence.

Oh my, you very much need to get over yourself.

 

[stevecanuck]

I havent seen anything that shows there are more "Valerys" than people that dont want to follow it or are "Muslims in name only".

There doesn't have to be more Valerys than not, just enough to create and encourage organizations like IS, AQ, etc. who are dedicated to spreading Islam around the world by any means necessary.

Really...if you live in some of those countries, you dont have a choice (hence, the label 'theocracy.'). Where's that data? And then show how their existence affects the danger you claim exists for the US.

The Islamic zeal that led to 9/11 (and literally tens of thousands of smaller attacks around the world) still exists, and therefore the threat to the US still exists.

 

[stevecanuck]

The Old Testament does carry these words,

Verse number please (yeah, right).

as it too is part of the Koran.

Nope. Separate book. The qur'an says to follow the OT as well, but it's not part of the qur'an.

 

[Lursa]

There doesn't have to be more Valerys than not, just enough to create and encourage organizations like IS, AQ, etc. who are dedicated to spreading Islam around the world by any means necessary.



The Islamic zeal that led to 9/11 (and literally tens of thousands of smaller attacks around the world) still exists, and therefore the threat to the US still exists.

And you've not shown evidence that this is being directed at the US, not even as much as in the past. Prove the same level of 'zeal' still exists.

I'm not saying there's no threat, but it's much less than in the past and mostly from loser individuals.

This is the barely coherent and grammatically inept speech of a man who desperately wants to be able to claim that he "cured coronavirus."

That's it, in a nutshell. When we do get a handle on this crisis, he wants to be able to pull out footage and declare "I called it! I said use this! I said try this! I told them to do this, it was my idea!" He's just doing it with lots of stupid stuff because he doesnt want to miss an opportunity. He's afraid 'the big one' will be mentioned and he wont get credit for it.

It's all about declaring himself the savior of the cv crisis and we'll hear all about it, esp in his campaign. (Which is basically each of his press briefings these days) --- Lursa

 

[Fledermaus]

I don't have your agenda, so why did it imply anything other than face value.

Are you aware of your agenda..... I am.

Who are you speaking to?

You didn't quote anyone.

 

[Fledermaus]

The Old Testament does carry these words, as it too is part of the Koran. I have a long memory, from bible class as a child.

But everything you deem important is negative regarding the muslem religion. Have you never seen the absolutely beautiful workmanship muslems produce. That beauty is reflective of the beauty of its religious majesty, love of there creator, not bitter, or sterile as you would have people believe in your comments, I can only pity you, from where you come, it must be a very baron and lonely existence.

Show me the Old Testament verse that says "Jews are like donkeys who can carry books, but not understand them".

BTW - Muslim is usually capitalized.

 

[Rumpel]

What do you say to those Koran verses:





"Kill all the unbelievers, wherever you may meet them!"

 

[zyzygy]

What do you say to those Koran verses:





"Kill all the unbelievers, wherever you may meet them!"

The same as most Muslims say, 'not a chance!'

 

[Kiwimac]

What do you say to those Koran verses:





"Kill all the unbelievers, wherever you may meet them!"

I say "show the context."

There's a crack in everything, that's how the light gets in.

 

[stevecanuck]

I say "show the context."

There's a crack in everything, that's how the light gets in.

Context will tell you which unbelievers are being spoken of. First it was the pagans of Mecca, then it was the Jews of Yathrib, then it was the Jews outside of Yathrib, then it was the hypocrite Arab bedouins, and then it was the Christians of the Byzantine Empire. How does that affect the message?

 

[Kiwimac]

Context will tell you which unbelievers are being spoken of. First it was the pagans of Mecca, then it was the Jews of Yathrib, then it was the Jews outside of Yathrib, then it was the hypocrite Arab bedouins, and then it was the Christians of the Byzantine Empire. How does that affect the message?

Verses 5-7 of Surah 9 apply ONLY to the pagans with which the nascent Muslim community had an agreement and who broke that agreement. Verses 6-7 latter came to be applied to all 'polythesists' afaik it never applied to 'People of the Book.'

 

[stevecanuck]

Verses 5-7 of Surah 9 apply ONLY to the pagans

Actually the first 28 verses of surah 9 applied to the pagans. As I said, "Context will tell you which unbelievers are being spoken of." So, to this point we are in agreement (sort of). If you were to study the Qur'an you would notice that when specific incidents are being recounted, they are frequently followed by a concluding statement that contains a general and on-going lesson. Here, verse 26 tells Muslims (regarding the help God gave them during the Battle of Hunain), "But Allah did pour His calm on the Messenger and on the Believers, and sent down forces which ye saw not [this refers to invisible 'swooping angels']". That's the specific incident part. The remainder of the verse contains the all encompassing, on-going message, "He punished the Unbelievers; thus doth He reward those without Faith."

with which the nascent Muslim community had an agreement and who broke that agreement.

They only broke the agreement as a technicality that Mohamed took full advantage of. It was not the pagans of Mecca who attacked anyone, but one of their allied tribes who attacked one of Mohamed's allied tribe in a long-standing dispute between the two. The pagans approached Mohamed to apologize and to offer restitution, but Mo refused their offer because it gave him the excuse he was looking for to seize Mecca.

Verses 6-7 latter came to be applied to all 'polythesists' afaik it never applied to 'People of the Book.'

That happens in the infamous verse 29, "Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued." This was the rallying cry to exhort Mohamed's followers of the 'religion of peace' to attack the Byzantines --- and beyond. That command never expires.

 

[stevecanuck]

Verses 5-7 of Surah 9 apply ONLY to the pagans with which the nascent Muslim community had an agreement and who broke that agreement. Verses 6-7 latter came to be applied to all 'polythesists' afaik it never applied to 'People of the Book.'

Just to pile on further:

In his tafsir of surah 9, Sayyid Abul Ala Maududi *(9. Surah At Taubah (The Repentance) - Sayyid Abul Ala Maududi - Tafhim al-Qur'an - The Meaning of the Qur'an), summarizes "the problems that were confronting the [Islamic] Community at that time" thus:

- to make the whole of Arabia a perfect Dar-ul-Islam [abode of Islam],
- to extend the influence of Islam to the adjoining countries,
- to crush the mischief of the hypocrites, and
- to prepare the Muslims for Jihad against the non-Muslim world.

In order to enable the Muslims to extend the influence of Islam outside Arabia, they were enjoined to crush with sword the non-Muslim powers and to force them to accept the sovereignty of the Islamic State. As the great Roman and Iranian Empires were the biggest hindrances in the way, a conflict with them was inevitable. The object of Jihad was not to coerce them to accept Islam they were free to accept or not to accept it, but to prevent them from thrusting forcibly their deviations [non-Islamic religions] upon others and the coming generations. The Muslims were enjoined to tolerate their misguidance only to the extent that they might have the freedom to remain misguided, if they chose to be so, provided that they paid Jizyah (v. 29) as a sign of their subjugation to the Islamic State.

In order to prepare the Muslims for Jihad against the whole non-Muslim world, it was necessary to cure them even of that slight weakness of faith from which they were still suffering. For there could be no greater internal danger to the Islamic Community than the weakness of faith, especially where it was going to engage itself single-handed in a conflict with the whole non-Muslim world. That is why those people who had lagged behind in the Campaign to Tabuk or had shown the least negligence were severely taken to task, and were considered hypocrites if they had no plausible excuse for not fulfilling that obligation. Moreover, a clear declaration was made that in future the sole criterion of a Muslim's faith shall be the exertions he makes for the uplift of the Word of Allah and the role he plays in the conflict between Islam and kufr. Therefore, if anyone will show any hesitation in sacrificing his life, money, time and energies, his faith shall not be regarded as genuine.

 

[Yasureoktoo]

I say "show the context."

There's a crack in everything, that's how the light gets in.

Muhammad Asad
And fight against them until there is no more oppression and all worship is devoted to God alone. And if they desist-behold, God sees all that they do

M. M. Pickthall
And fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is all for Allah. But if they cease, then lo! Allah is Seer of what they do

Yusuf Ali (Saudi Rev. 1985)
And fight them on until there is no more tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in Allah altogether and everywhere; but if they cease, verily Allah doth see all that they do

The Clear Quran, Dr. Mustafa Khattab
Fight against them until there is no more persecution—and ˹your˺ devotion will be entirely to Allah. But if they desist, then surely Allah is All-Seeing of what they do.

Safi Kaskas
Fight them until there is no more persecution and all worship is devoted to God alone. If they stop, then God sees all that they do

Wahiduddin Khan
Fight them until there is no more [religious] persecution,[14] and religion belongs wholly to God: if they desist, then surely God is watchful of what they do

Shakir
And fight with them until there is no more persecution and religion should be only for Allah; but if they desist, then surely Allah sees what they do

Dr. Laleh Bakhtiar
And fight them until there be no persecution and the way of life—all of it—be for God. Then, if they refrained themselves, then, truly, God is Seeing of what they do.
T.B.Irving
Fight them off until there is no more persecution, and Religion belongs wholly to God: yet if they do stop, then God is Observant of anything they do.

Abdul Hye
And (O believers) fight them until there is no more mischief and the religion (Islam) is established completely for Allah alone. But if they cease (worshipping others besides Allah), then surely, Allah is All-Seer of what they do.
The Study Quran
And fight them until there is no strife, and religion is wholly for God. But if they desist, then truly God sees whatsoever they do

Dr. Kamal Omar
And make Qital against them until there remains no Fitnah, and the Religion becomes, in its entirety, dedicated to Allah. Then if they ceased, then certainly, Allah is All-Seer of what they do

Farook Malik
O believers, fight them until there is no more mischief and the Deen of Allah (way of life prescribed by Allah) is established completely; but if they do stop from mischief, then surely Allah is observant of all their actions

Talal A. Itani (new translation)
Fight them until there is no more persecution, and religion becomes exclusively for God. But if they desist—God is Seeing of what they do

Muhammad Mahmoud Ghali
And fight them, till there is no temptation (Or: sedition, persecution) and the religion is all for Allah; so in case they refrain, then surely Allah is Ever-Beholding whatever they do
Muhammad Sarwar
Fight them so that idolatry will not exist any more and God's religion will stand supreme. If theygive up the idols), God will be Well Aware of what they do

Muhammad Taqi Usmani
And fight them until there is no Fitnah (mischief), and total obedience becomes for Allah. So, if they desist, then, Allah is indeed watchful over what they do

Shabbir Ahmed
Fight and subdue those who persist in aggression until persecution is no more, and absolute freedom of religion is established. People must be able to adopt a religion only for God's Approval, and as free choice (2:193), (12:108). If they cease from aggression, Allah is the Seer of their actions, and therefore you shall leave them alone

Dr. Munir Munshey
(Oh believers)! Fight against them until the mischief and oppression are no more, and faith becomes the domain of Allah exclusively. If they cease, then (remember): Allah watches (vigilantly) over everything they do
Syed Vickar Ahamed