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The Quran and the Constitution

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With the arrest of Terry Jones comes the familiar argument that we should modify our laws to mollify those who would react violently to the burning of the Quran (and other such speech). The typical response is to point to our First Amendment right of free speech. While that is very valid, I do believe it is not the only part of the First Amendment that would be implicated here.

I believe that making it illegal to burn the Quran would also violate the Establishment Clause by carving out special legal protections for the religious book if one religion over all others.

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

What do you think?



 
In order to mollify those that get pissed at the burning of the Quran we would have to totally dump the 1st Amendment. Even the Free Press part as some news company could post some picture of the Quran being burned. No way in **** would any real American go for that.
 
With the arrest of Terry Jones comes the familiar argument that we should modify our laws to mollify those who would react violently to the burning of the Quran (and other such speech). The typical response is to point to our First Amendment right of free speech. While that is very valid, I do believe it is not the only part of the First Amendment that would be implicated here.

I believe that making it illegal to burn the Quran would also violate the Establishment Clause by carving out special legal protections for the religious book if one religion over all others.

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

What do you think?




Who's saying that? Certainly no one here.
 
Who's saying that? Certainly no one here.

I've seen lots of people that want hate speech laws enacted and they invariably almost always speak up when talking about "burning the Quran"...along with many other topics which they believe "promotes hate" (at least in their views).
 
I've seen lots of people that want hate speech laws enacted and they invariably almost always speak up when talking about "burning the Quran"...along with many other topics which they believe "promotes hate" (at least in their views).

I haven't seen it so I'll take your word for it.
 
If a government institution would burn the quoran, then yes, that would be a violation of this:
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

Because you would be making a religious statement.

But terry jones is just an individual, not a representative of the government. He should do whatever he wants, and the burning of the quoran is free speech.
 
As a poll from a similar thread shows, if there's any strong force on DP that is for illegalizing book burning, they're staying silent.
poll.jpg
That certainly doesn't make us for book burning (I'm truly repulsed by the thought), but we understand and support the 1st Amendment of the Constitution.
 
With the arrest of Terry Jones comes the familiar argument that we should modify our laws to mollify those who would react violently to the burning of the Quran (and other such speech). The typical response is to point to our First Amendment right of free speech. While that is very valid, I do believe it is not the only part of the First Amendment that would be implicated here.

I believe that making it illegal to burn the Quran would also violate the Establishment Clause by carving out special legal protections for the religious book if one religion over all others.

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

What do you think?​


How do we balance this with preventing activities in the US that will get US servicemen, Federal employees and contractors killed for no good reason?

We should not infringe upon the bill of rights, but at the same time we have an obligation to prevent harm to our fellow citizen. I don't see a good option here.​
 
Rights are not absolute and the right to free speech has limitations. For instance, the first amendment doesn't protect the right to yell fire in a crowded theater, nor does it protect the right to incite violence, insurrection or riots.

"...Following Schenck v. United States, "clear and present danger" became both a public metaphor for First Amendment speech[25][26] and a standard test in cases before the Court where a United States law limits a citizen's First Amendment rights; the law is deemed to be constitutional if it can be shown that the language it prohibits poses a "clear and present danger". However, the "clear and present danger" criterion of the Schenck decision was replaced in 1969 by Brandenburg v. Ohio,[27] and the test refined to determining whether the speech would provoke an "imminent lawless action"......read

Clear and present danger - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


"....In law, hate speech is any speech, gesture or conduct, writing, or display which is forbidden because it may incite violence or prejudicial action against or by a protected individual or group, or because it disparages or intimidates a protected individual or group. The law may identify a protected individual or a protected group by certain characteristics.[3][4][5][6]....read

Hate speech - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



Burning Qurans is little different than burning a cross on someones front lawn. I doubt few people would say that burning crosses wasn't hate speech. So why wouldn't burning Qurans be hate speech, too?
 
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Rights are not absolute and the right to free speech has limitations. For instance, the first amendment doesn't protect the right to yell fire in a crowded theater, nor does it protect the right to incite violence, insurrection or riots.

"...Following Schenck v. United States, "clear and present danger" became both a public metaphor for First Amendment speech[25][26] and a standard test in cases before the Court where a United States law limits a citizen's First Amendment rights; the law is deemed to be constitutional if it can be shown that the language it prohibits poses a "clear and present danger". However, the "clear and present danger" criterion of the Schenck decision was replaced in 1969 by Brandenburg v. Ohio,[27] and the test refined to determining whether the speech would provoke an "imminent lawless action"......read

Clear and present danger - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


"....In law, hate speech is any speech, gesture or conduct, writing, or display which is forbidden because it may incite violence or prejudicial action against or by a protected individual or group, or because it disparages or intimidates a protected individual or group. The law may identify a protected individual or a protected group by certain characteristics.[3][4][5][6]....read

Hate speech - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



Burning Qurans is little different than burning a cross on someones front lawn. I doubt few people would say that burning crosses wasn't hate speech. So why wouldn't burning Qurans be hate speech, too?

Hate speech alone is not illegal here. How do you justify giving special protection to the Quran in light of the Establishment Clause?
 
books are importan materials for the cognitive ,intellectual development of the humans ,nobody should burn no book

l dont support any application of sharia laws but the act of burning a book seems so psychotic to me and l believe no amendment should approve such a thing in the name of freedom of speech .because it seems more like a freedom of provocation

similarly l always condemn such protestos too

kuranin-yakilmasina-tepki-gosteren-eylemciler,-amerika-bayragi-yakti--1072674-02.jpg
 
Hate speech alone is not illegal here. How do you justify giving special protection to the Quran in light of the Establishment Clause?

I was arguing the freedom of speech clause and really haven't given the establishment clause much thought since it mostly applies to the government.

Hate speech that incites violence is illegal. Cross burning is also illegal so why wouldn't burning the Quran be illegal, too?
 
Last edited:
Rights are not absolute and the right to free speech has limitations. For instance, the first amendment doesn't protect the right to yell fire in a crowded theater, nor does it protect the right to incite violence, insurrection or riots.

"...Following Schenck v. United States, "clear and present danger" became both a public metaphor for First Amendment speech[25][26] and a standard test in cases before the Court where a United States law limits a citizen's First Amendment rights; the law is deemed to be constitutional if it can be shown that the language it prohibits poses a "clear and present danger". However, the "clear and present danger" criterion of the Schenck decision was replaced in 1969 by Brandenburg v. Ohio,[27] and the test refined to determining whether the speech would provoke an "imminent lawless action"......read

Clear and present danger - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


"....In law, hate speech is any speech, gesture or conduct, writing, or display which is forbidden because it may incite violence or prejudicial action against or by a protected individual or group, or because it disparages or intimidates a protected individual or group. The law may identify a protected individual or a protected group by certain characteristics.[3][4][5][6]....read

Hate speech - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

There also has to be intent to cause harm or imminent danger. Burning a Quran is done to make a statement, not to incite violence. Also Hate speech is irrelevent because we do not have ANY hate speech laws.

Burning Qurans is little different than burning a cross on someones front lawn. I doubt few people would say that burning crosses wasn't hate speech. So why wouldn't burning Qurans be hate speech, too?

You're right. There is little difference. How ever you are wrong that burnning a cross would be considered hate speech. The KKK routinely burns crosses in some of thier ceremonies and no one ever bats an eye about it. Heck, I can't even remember the last time anyone even hollered about the Bible being burned, much less the cross.
 
Terry Jones wasn't arrested for "hate speech". He was arrested because 3000 kerosene soaked books violated Florida law for unlawful conveyance of fuel. It is required that large quantities of fuel be stored in proper tanks and containers during transportation for obvious safety reasons.
 
Terry Jones wasn't arrested for "hate speech". He was arrested because 3000 kerosene soaked books violated Florida law for unlawful conveyance of fuel. It is required that large quantities of fuel be stored in proper tanks and containers during transportation for obvious safety reasons.

If this is true then i'd say they are just charging him just to charge him with something. If a person spills kerosene in the back of their pickup are they violating the law?
 
I was arguing the freedom of speech clause and really haven't given the establishment clause much thought since it mostly applies to the government.

Hate speech that incites violence is illegal. Cross burning is also illegal so why wouldn't burning the Quran be illegal, too?

Cross burning is not illegal. KKK do it all the time.
 
With the arrest of Terry Jones comes the familiar argument that we should modify our laws to mollify those who would react violently to the burning of the Quran (and other such speech). The typical response is to point to our First Amendment right of free speech. While that is very valid, I do believe it is not the only part of the First Amendment that would be implicated here.

I believe that making it illegal to burn the Quran would also violate the Establishment Clause by carving out special legal protections for the religious book if one religion over all others.

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

What do you think?




As long as I can also burn the original copy of the declaration of independence without fear of arrest.
 
If this is true then i'd say they are just charging him just to charge him with something. If a person spills kerosene in the back of their pickup are they violating the law?

Yes, if they strike a match.
 
As long as I can also burn the original copy of the declaration of independence without fear of arrest.

Burning one original document vs 3000 copies.....hmm...me thinks that there is about a 3000 bit of a difference there. Even I would understand people being outraged with someone burning the Original Quran. But copies are just that...copies. No other intrinsic value. So I won't say a thing if you burn 3000 copies of the DoI. ;)

But besides that, the DoI is owned by the Government. Not a particular individual. Burning it would be destruction of government property. A federal felony.
 
Doesn't matter. It is protected speech via the 1st amendment. No matter what law VA has it cannot trump the 1st amendment.

Do your research because the Supreme Court upheld VA's ban on cross burning.
 
With the arrest of Terry Jones comes the familiar argument that we should modify our laws to mollify those who would react violently to the burning of the Quran (and other such speech). The typical response is to point to our First Amendment right of free speech. While that is very valid, I do believe it is not the only part of the First Amendment that would be implicated here.

I believe that making it illegal to burn the Quran would also violate the Establishment Clause by carving out special legal protections for the religious book if one religion over all others.

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

What do you think?




No I don't think that fits here. Just like I don't think praying in a public function equates Congress establishing a religion.
 
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