the question of the Kaliningrad Oblast - or North East-Prussia

[Rumpel]

Since the early 1990s there has been a proposal for independence of the Kaliningrad Oblast from Russia and the formation of a "fourth Baltic state" by some of the local people. The Baltic Republican Party was founded on 1 December 1993 with the aim of founding an autonomous Baltic Republic.[25]

Kaliningrad question - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Just an idea:

For some time there seemed the possibility of some change.

Which possibility would you have preferred?

 

[Rumpel]

Some rumours:

According to a Der Spiegel article published in 2010, in 1990 the West German government received a message from the Soviet general Geli Batenin, offering to return Kaliningrad.[14] The offer was never seriously considered by the Bonn government, who saw reunification with the East as its priority.[14] However, this story was later denied by Mikhail Gorbachev.[15]

In 2001, the EU was alleged to be in talks with Russia to arrange an association agreement with the Kaliningrad Oblast, at a time when Russia could not repay £22 billion debt owed to Berlin, which may have given Germany some influence over the territory.[12] Claims of "buying back" Kaliningrad (Königsberg) or other "secret deals" were repudiated by both sides.[16]

Another rumor about a debt-related deal, published by the Russian weekly Nash Continent, alleged that Putin and Edmund Stoiber had agreed on the gradual return of Kaliningrad in return for waiving the country's $50 billion debt to Germany.

Kaliningrad question - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Rumpel]

Now:

1 vote for:

• Kaliningrad as a 4th independent Baltic State​

 

[Rumpel]

history of Kaliningrad:

The history of the city may be divided into four periods: the Old Prussian settlement known as Twangste before 1255; the Polish city of Królewiec from 1454 to 1455 and then fief of Poland from 1456–1657; the German city of Königsberg from 1657 to 1945; and the Russian city of Kaliningrad from 1945 to present.

Kaliningrad - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Tigerace117]

Kaliningrad question - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Just an idea:

For some time there seemed the possibility of some change.

Which possibility would you have preferred?

The possibility has never existed. The population is overwhelmingly Russian.

From your own source:

“After the collapse of the Soviet Union, Russia's claim to Kaliningrad was not contested by any government,[49] though some groups in Lithuania called for the annexation of the province, or parts of it.[30]

Poland has made no claim to Kaliningrad, and is seen as being unlikely to do so, as it was a net beneficiary of the Potsdam Agreement, which also decided the status of Kaliningrad.[27]”

 

[Rumpel]

From your own source:

“After the collapse of the Soviet Union, Russia's claim to Kaliningrad was not contested by any government,[49] though some groups in Lithuania called for the annexation of the province, or parts of it.[30]

I know.

The poll question is only a question like: what if?

 

[Gatsby]

If anyone else has a claim to it, it's probably Germany. But I don't think Germany wants it.

I would support a peaceful transfer from Russia to Germany though. It's better for the world if Russia does not have a launch point to expand into NATO, and if there isn't a random Russian enclave in Schengen.

Maybe some billionaire who wants to play SimCity (e.g. Peter Thiel, Balaji Srinivasan, Elon Musk) can buy it and turn it into a global city.

 

[Tigerace117]

If anyone else has a claim to it, it's probably Germany. But I don't think Germany wants it.

I would support a peaceful transfer from Russia to Germany though. It's better for the world if Russia does not have a launch point to expand into NATO, and if there isn't a random Russian enclave in Schengen.

Seeing as there is effective no German populace left, the likelihood of that is approximately zero.

 

[Gatsby]

Seeing as there is effective no German populace left, the likelihood of that is approximately zero.

Yeah but there isn't much of a Russian population there either. Only about 400,000 people. If Germany (or anyone else) wanted it and Russia was willing to sell it, it probably wouldn't be that expensive to just pay most of the locals to go away.

 

[Tigerace117]

Yeah but there isn't much of a Russian population there either. Only about 400,000 people. If Germany (or anyone else) wanted it and Russia was willing to sell it, it probably wouldn't be that expensive to just pay most of the locals to go away.

Two rather massive ifs.

 

[Rumpel]

As I said: It is just a question of: "What if ...."

Of course there is now real chance now that Russia would sell Kaliningrad.

But years ago there might have been a slim chance,

 

[Rumpel]

2 out of 5 now say:
as a part of Lithuania
as a part of Poland

 

[Rumpel]

Yeah but there isn't much of a Russian population there either. Only about 400,000 people. If Germany (or anyone else) wanted it and Russia was willing to sell it, it probably wouldn't be that expensive to just pay most of the locals to go away.

Around 2001 there may have been a chance - so some say.

 

[Tigerace117]

As I said: It is just a question of: "What if ...."

Of course there is now real chance now that Russia would sell Kaliningrad.

But years ago there might have been a slim chance,

Not even a remote one.

Russia is not going to “sell” one of its most militarily and strategically important territories.

That’s like claiming the US is going to sell Hawaii.

 

[Rumpel]

Russia is not going to “sell” one of its most militarily and strategically important territories.

NOT NOW.
But Russia sold Alaska once ....

 

[Rumpel]

After 1945 Russia tried to destroy and erase anything in Kaliningrad that was left of the German past.

But when Communism had collappsed, there was a time when there was talk of giving the town its old name Königsberg.
Or "Kenik", maybe.

 

[Tigerace117]

NOT NOW.
But Russia sold Alaska once ....

That was two separate empires ago, and frankly, given how poorly that deal worked out for them, they are unlikely to considering selling the slightest bit of land.

Furthermore, Alaska was a isolated, far off, not very valuable territoryat the ends of the Russian state.

Kaliningrad, meanwhile, is an extremely military and strategically valuable territory filled with Russians.

 

[Carjosse]

What country is going to want to integrate a massive ethnic Russian and Russian speaking population after Putin has made it clear that makes you a target for invasion and political manipulation?

 

[Grizzly Adams]

Kaliningrad question - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Just an idea:

For some time there seemed the possibility of some change.

Which possibility would you have preferred?

I prefer that Kaliningrad decide for itself with whom it wishes to associate.

 

[Gatsby]

What country is going to want to integrate a massive ethnic Russian and Russian speaking population after Putin has made it clear that makes you a target for invasion and political manipulation?

It's really not that many people, and most of them could probably be paid to just leave and go back to core Russia if they didn't want to become citizens of their new country.

Besides, it's going to be a long time before Russia has the strength to invade other countries again. I think we are all still underestimating just how much the war in Ukraine has destroyed Russian military and geopolitical power. We may be witnessing something from which Russia never recovers, or if they do recover it will take a generation.

If the wheels start really coming off the Russian economy and demographic situation, it's possible that they'll consider selling some of their less defensible positions like Kaliningrad in order to consolidate power in their core territory. But they aren't there yet.

 

[Rumpel]

That was in the year 2002 .....

And in a worrying signal for Russia, a group of Kaliningrad residents are demanding that Kaliningrad city resume going by its former German name, Koeningsberg.

"We are living in Europe and, if we want to be accepted as equals in the European cultural sphere, we have to give back its historic name to our city," said Sergei Pasko, leader of the Baltic Republican Party which supports the initiative.

Kaliningrad took its Soviet-era name from politician Mikhail Kalinin, who was the Soviet Union's honorific head of state from 1938 to 1946, the year the city was renamed.

But until then, Kaliningrad was known as Koenigsberg, capital of the then-German region of East Prussia.

More: https://www.baltictimes.com/news/articles/6667/

For "Koening" read: König = King

 

[Tigerace117]

That was in the year 2002 .....



More: https://www.baltictimes.com/news/articles/6667/

For "Koening" read: König = King

A tiny group of randos who collapsed a year later is not evidence of support for such an initiative, sorry.

Baltic Republican Party - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Juin]

.



Voted "Other". It opens up a dangerous can of worms. Poland may have to put Gdansk back on the table for adjudication. I can come up with tons of others

 

[Rumpel]

It was after 1945 when students in "East Prussia" were encouraged to destroy as many objects as possible, when they were signs of the German past - because anything German was seen as fascist, no matter from which century.

Just as now anything Ukrainian is seen as "fascist" for the Russian propaganda.

 

[Juin]

What country is going to want to integrate a massive ethnic Russian and Russian speaking population after Putin has made it clear that makes you a target for invasion and political manipulation?

If there is no place for ethnic Russian populations into the new non Russian nations then these populations are entitled to their own self dertemination, same as Nato afforded to Kosovo. The right to self determination of ethnic Russians is not a gift from the EU. The policy of EU/Nato appears to be self determination for ethnicities that are minorities under Serbs or Russians; but when it is a case of ethnic Russian minorities it is denied under the other principle of territorial integrity