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We've debated this before (well, I missed most of the last debate, so most of you have debated this before), but I think it deserves another thread.
The classis arguments for the existence of God are:
1. The order of the universe...the random creation of comething so ordered as our planet seems to contradict the old scientific claim that entropy always increases. Well, entropy certainly has decreased considerably on our planet. Can this be waved off as just another exception to the law? It is undisputable that in many natural systems, entropy has decreased. This is why evolution does not contradict the second law of thermodynamics. Or ocurse, evolution takes place on earth, a planet on which natural systems are abundant. But is the universe really a 'natural system'? What's so natural about cold, dark space with bits of metal and rock flying around? If the universe itself is a 'natural system', does this not refute the second law of thermodynamics itself? If the entire universe is a natural system, entropy 'sometimes' decreases...how can this be a law at all then?
2. The existence of a universally felt moral code. Murder, stealing, adultery, all of these have been considered wrong by almost every civilization throughout the ages. How can this have randomly occured? If we say that God does not exist, we destroy any moral point of reference. This, of course, leads to moral relativism, where any morality is 'as right' as any other. But for this to be true, one would expect that many different variances of morality would happen over time, instead of the normal moral code we humans adhere to (and if we stray, we feel a strange feeling known as guilt). But this has not been the case: mores and customs have shown to be dynamic; they change over time. Moral codes have proven to be quite static in that they remain over time. Our morality was extremely similar to that of the ancient Chinese, and their's was similar to that of the ancient Romans and Greeks. How does the atheist account for this? And, according to atheists, what are the origins of this morality?
I invite theists to give other supposed 'proofs', and, of course, I invite atheists to attempt to shread these proofs to pieces.
The classis arguments for the existence of God are:
1. The order of the universe...the random creation of comething so ordered as our planet seems to contradict the old scientific claim that entropy always increases. Well, entropy certainly has decreased considerably on our planet. Can this be waved off as just another exception to the law? It is undisputable that in many natural systems, entropy has decreased. This is why evolution does not contradict the second law of thermodynamics. Or ocurse, evolution takes place on earth, a planet on which natural systems are abundant. But is the universe really a 'natural system'? What's so natural about cold, dark space with bits of metal and rock flying around? If the universe itself is a 'natural system', does this not refute the second law of thermodynamics itself? If the entire universe is a natural system, entropy 'sometimes' decreases...how can this be a law at all then?
2. The existence of a universally felt moral code. Murder, stealing, adultery, all of these have been considered wrong by almost every civilization throughout the ages. How can this have randomly occured? If we say that God does not exist, we destroy any moral point of reference. This, of course, leads to moral relativism, where any morality is 'as right' as any other. But for this to be true, one would expect that many different variances of morality would happen over time, instead of the normal moral code we humans adhere to (and if we stray, we feel a strange feeling known as guilt). But this has not been the case: mores and customs have shown to be dynamic; they change over time. Moral codes have proven to be quite static in that they remain over time. Our morality was extremely similar to that of the ancient Chinese, and their's was similar to that of the ancient Romans and Greeks. How does the atheist account for this? And, according to atheists, what are the origins of this morality?
I invite theists to give other supposed 'proofs', and, of course, I invite atheists to attempt to shread these proofs to pieces.