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The psychology of climate change denial

I have been meaning to debunk this but haven't had the time till now.
I contend, that alarmist claims of exaggerated warming, are dogma, as they are built, not on observations,
but model outputs, based on assumptions, that are increasingly being shown to be incorrect.
Why do you keep repeating this lie? Sure... initial estimates of how bad warming could be were based mostly on models but over the last decade or more, the science has been observing and measuring data that confirms warming could get really bad. You have been shown this observational data many times.

longview said:
As to energy being created, let us consider the what almost everyone accepts.
Earth is 33C warmer, because of a Top of the atmosphere energy imbalance of 150 W m-2.
This is a ratio of .22C per W m-2 of imbalance.
The IPCC, in the Third assessment report, stated that, 4 W m-2 of imbalance would force warming of 1.2C,
a ratio of .3C per W m-2, and that feedbacks would amplify that warming to produce warming of between 1.5 and 4.5C.
( If we use an ECS of 3 C, implies a ratio .75 C per W m-2).
The idea that the ratio of warming to imbalance would increase, is a creation of energy!
So... you are making a comparison between a hypothetical Earth with no CO2 using what is probably just an estimation of the warming from all the CO2 with an IPCC estimation of climate sensitivity from CO2 to justify another bogus comparison?
:rolleyes:
Sorry, long... but you making one ridiculous comparison does not justify you making another ridiculous comparison.
 
I have provide link for how right wing media have promoted climate denier propaganda. While you have provided no link that left wing media promotes denier propaganda.

No the left defeatest media promotes Alarmist no hope must kill ourselves propaganda.
 
I have provide link for how right wing media have promoted climate denier propaganda. While you have provided no link that left wing media promotes denier propaganda.

I made no claim about left wing media. You have not shown right wing media promoting Svensmark or Shaviv.
 
I have been meaning to debunk this but haven't had the time till now.

Why do you keep repeating this lie? Sure... initial estimates of how bad warming could be were based mostly on models but over the last decade or more, the science has been observing and measuring data that confirms warming could get really bad. You have been shown this observational data many times.


So... you are making a comparison between a hypothetical Earth with no CO2 using what is probably just an estimation of the warming from all the CO2 with an IPCC estimation of climate sensitivity from CO2 to justify another bogus comparison?
:rolleyes:
Sorry, long... but you making one ridiculous comparison does not justify you making another ridiculous comparison.
We have warmed ~.75 C since 1978, and some of that is attributed to increases in CO2,
but some would also have to be attributed to the increase in isolation since the mid 1980's,
as well as feedbacks from earlier warming.
The remaining warming attributed to CO2, is close to the basic forcing warming of 2XCO2 about 1.1C.

It is not my comparison between a hypothetical Earth with no CO2, but rather the scientific consensus.
That 33C, from 150 W/m2, is for not just CO2, but the entire greenhouse effect.
You can find the reference that Earth should be –18 °C , in many places, but is actually at 15 °C (Delta 33°C).
ACS greenhouse effect
The ratio of energy imbalance to increased surface warming, is not really debated.
The question should be why would the energy imbalance from new CO2 change the ratio,
of earlier energy imbalances, some millions of years old?
 
Science and politics
Posted on October 26, 2020 by curryja | Leave a comment
by Judith Curry

". . . In political debates, ‘I believe in science’ is a statement generally made by people who don’t understand much about it. They use such statements about science as a way of declaring belief in scientific proposition that is outside their knowledge and understanding. The belief of such individuals in climate change is often more akin to believing in Santa Claus than relating to actual understanding of science.

In the context of the climate change, ‘I believe in science’ uses the overall reputation of science to give authority to the climate change ‘consensus’, shielding it from questioning and skepticism. ‘I believe in science’ is a signifier of social group identity that supports massive government legislation to limit or ban fossil fuels. ‘Belief in science’ makes it appear that disagreement on this solution is equivalent to a rejection of the scientific method and worldview. When exposed to science that challenges their political biases, these same ‘believers’ are quick to claim ‘pseudo-science,’ without considering (or even understanding) the actual evidence or arguments. . . ."
 
I have been very puzzled at the rhetoric and arguments of climate deniers. It has seemed really odd how readily, for example, they deny the strong and unanimous consensus of every single scientific organization on the entire planet, but jump all over a Manhattan real estate guy’s Declaration that it’s all just a Chinese hoax. No amount of evidence seems to be enough. They either deny it, or twist it, or just grasp at any crazy website or charlatan they can find who may have an opposing opinion. It just seems so disconnected from reality and reason.

It did not make sense, until I saw this article about why otherwise rational people can become climate change deniers, young earth creationists, believe in ESP and UFO abduction stories, deny modern medicine and think they can treat their rececently diagnosed cancer with all-natural herbal teas and yoga, become an anti-vaxxer, etc...

It’s a psychological optical illusion: when scientific facts are so unfamiliar, so uncomfortable, so against one’s view of what the world is like or should be, that it becomes preposterous to accept it. So they start to see their skepticism as being smart. The science, so readily accepted in other areas, becomes a conspiracy to destroy capitalism or give their kids autism or something. It’s not A matter of presenting even more evidence, or being more logical or rational. This is not about facts or logic.

Great article on the psychology of such science-denial:

Why So Many Americans Don't 'Believe' In Evolution, Climate Change And Vaccines | HuffPost Life

I think the way to try to convince these folks is not to keep presenting more evidence for climate change. It’s not about the evidence. Clearly no amount of evidence is going to change their mind. The thing that bothers them is probably that if true, it is going to involve government intervention and spending. Or that they might lose their jobs. If they are convinced that’s what it’s going to necessarily involve, they are going to keep denying it. Maybe if they are reassured that the free-market may be able to address these issues, or that new and more jobs will be created, they will not deny the issues themselves so much anymore. Of course, then there is the fear of change that we will have to contend with.

But at least this may be a blueprint for how to debate these folks. Because it is clear than trying to convince them just based on evidence and rationality is a losing proposition. You will just go against a brick wall and come back with a concussion. Because it’s not about that.
Do you ever bother to look up the large numbers of scientists that disagree with the climate change extremist? There are plenty.
 
Do you ever bother to look up the large numbers of scientists that disagree with the climate change extremist? There are plenty.

There are plenty who think the Earth is flat too. What of it?
 
Not really

You can find a whole bunch of “scientists” to support any position you want. There are always a whole bunch of kooks and charlatans around. That’s not science. That’s not how it works.

do you understand how it really works?
 
It is very simple. The degree off doubts is directly intertwined with what the expecytedpersonal severeness and costs is.
So: We are all denials of facts, which facts depends…

For example: Let’s say we have a coalmine in Sweden and an equal one in US and we say we are not going to use it anymore and it has to be wind up. Well in Sweden the local rule can ask the state for compensation: The state will try and move other work to the region, either by giving private companies special benefits or move state jobs. The workers will get special support to start smaller business a s o. In US: The workers will walk away to nothing and face maybe total disaster and homelessness for themselves and for their family and love ones. Who would accept reality of climate impact and who will not?

Let me give you a different example (Now from reality):

In Sweden there are now an average of 2.07 computers and 1.3 tablets per household. Eight out of ten have a smart mobile and almost everyone (98%) has a mobile.
The mining off cobalt, graphite and lithium, substances used in, among other things rechargeable batteries (and cars) are often mined in Africa for example Kongo, during disgusting conditions and environmentally unsafe processes. EU wants to secure a more sustainable production: Finland and Sweden bedrock are rich on those metals. Sweden has technic, and know how on how to make this industry as environmental secure as it can be.

And yet: No such production is in place in Sweden, Why? Because the regions says no every time such a placement ( from private business) is looked at. They don’t want the local environmental costs for it. The state has not driven the question, We have environmental objectives… That, at the end off the day the environment is global and that the costs are global does not change that any Swede will feel proud of that we don’t have this kind of industry and that we meet our climate goals. But we still buy new phones every 6 month and computer, and cars and…. No costs in lifestyle, environment or in our communities and we look good internationally. It is easy to be a climate change activist in Sweden…



For Swedes to start being force climate change deniers it would only take that the global environmental impact should be the one that counts…
 
Social safety net and help getting new job
It is very simple. The degree off doubts is directly intertwined with what the expecytedpersonal severeness and costs is.
So: We are all denials of facts, which facts depends…

For example: Let’s say we have a coalmine in Sweden and an equal one in US and we say we are not going to use it anymore and it has to be wind up. Well in Sweden the local rule can ask the state for compensation: The state will try and move other work to the region, either by giving private companies special benefits or move state jobs. The workers will get special support to start smaller business a s o. In US: The workers will walk away to nothing and face maybe total disaster and homelessness for themselves and for their family and love ones. Who would accept reality of climate impact and who will not?

Let me give you a different example (Now from reality):

In Sweden there are now an average of 2.07 computers and 1.3 tablets per household. Eight out of ten have a smart mobile and almost everyone (98%) has a mobile.
The mining off cobalt, graphite and lithium, substances used in, among other things rechargeable batteries (and cars) are often mined in Africa for example Kongo, during disgusting conditions and environmentally unsafe processes. EU wants to secure a more sustainable production: Finland and Sweden bedrock are rich on those metals. Sweden has technic, and know how on how to make this industry as environmental secure as it can be....

For Swedes to start being force climate change deniers it would only take that the global environmental impact should be the one that counts…

Social safety nets and getting help to get new jobs can be an important part of transition away from fossil fuels. There for example Germany creates new jobs and opportunities for former coal workers. while Trump only gives coal workers false hope.



That at the same time there can be great economical opportunities with a transition away from fossil fuels. That at the same time both the Corona outbreak and globalization also shows the need for social safety net and helping people get new jobs and educations.




Sweden is also have a long history of mining there it now is looking into if it possible to mine minerals for energy storage and electric cars. Sweden is also part of the transition with for example companies like Facebook putting there servers in Sweden because they can get cheap renewable energy and also take advantage of the cold. Also Sweden is investing in a big battery factory powered with renewable energy.



Also fossil fuel companies have for decades bought cobalt from Kongo with little disregard for human rights or the environment. There it first with batteries just for energy storage and electric cars you are starting to see real change. There EU's planned carbon tax on import can also be away to contribute to global sustainability.



While at the same time there are of course a lot can be done with consumption like for buying products with longer life span there for example Fairphone is an intersting example of how you can replace parts instead of the entire phone. Also for example that you can spend the money on a dance course instead of replacing your working TV. Also that electric car pools can mean that more people can be able not to own a car. Also that reducing working hours might be a better way to create increase in life quality then even more consumption.

(Had to shorten your text because of word limits)
 
ExxonMobil continue to fund climate deniers even with the overwhelming evidence for the urgent need for action.

Have you any idea of the enormous profits Exxon will get if they put a Carbon tax in place?
They are licking their lips, hoping the Government regulates the competition out of business.
 
Have you any idea of the enormous profits Exxon will get if they put a Carbon tax in place?
They are licking their lips, hoping the Government regulates the competition out of business.
And yet they continue to fund deniers
 
Have you any idea of the enormous profits Exxon will get if they put a Carbon tax in place?
They are licking their lips, hoping the Government regulates the competition out of business.

European countries have had carbon tax for a long time.


There this for example have led to 60 percent of new cars sales are pure electric in Norway.


While fossil fuel companies have failed to come up with carbon neutral fossils and also have to acknowledge how renewables are outcompeting fossil fuels.

 
European countries have had carbon tax for a long time.


There this for example have led to 60 percent of new cars sales are pure electric in Norway.


While fossil fuel companies have failed to come up with carbon neutral fossils and also have to acknowledge how renewables are outcompeting fossil fuels.

Those same European countries like the money from the carbon tax, more than they want a solution to AGW,
otherwise, they could make carbon neutral fuels, that would sell for less than the fuel made from oil.
Renewable s are only competing with fossil fuels, when you add in imagined social costs.
In actual costs, the the poor energy density and duty cycle of the alternatives, are not factored in.
You cannot meet the worlds energy demands from a energy supply that is only there sometimes, unless you have a massive storage capacity.
I am not speaking of batteries, the storage would have to be able to move seasons.
 
ExxonMobil continue to fund climate deniers even with the overwhelming evidence for the urgent need for action.

And yet they continue to fund deniers
Exxon-Mobil always published and shared all their research results. The company was also an active participant in the IPCC.
 
Those same European countries like the money from the carbon tax, more than they want a solution to AGW,
otherwise, they could make carbon neutral fuels, that would sell for less than the fuel made from oil.
Renewable s are only competing with fossil fuels, when you add in imagined social costs.
In actual costs, the the poor energy density and duty cycle of the alternatives, are not factored in.
You cannot meet the worlds energy demands from a energy supply that is only there sometimes, unless you have a massive storage capacity.
I am not speaking of batteries, the storage would have to be able to move seasons.

The carbon tax would be a great motivator for fossil fuel companies to develop carbon neutral fuel if that was a credible alternatives.

You also have had the oil crisis during the 70:s, the Gulf war, 9/11 and the Iraq war that showed the massive cost of being dependent on oil from the Middle East. So that should also be a great motivator for fossil fuel companies to develop carbon neutral.

Fossil fuel companies have also for a very long time known about the risk climate changes poses so that should also have been great motivator for fossil fuel companies to develop carbon neutral.


Fossil fuel companies also spend enormous on lobbying so the fossil fuel companies could have gotten government to help with the development of carbon neutral fuels if it had been a realistic alternatives.


There carbon neutral fuels still after many decades is stil not an realistic alternative. There oil companies instead are investing in renewable energy, battery storage and hydrogen.




There you are also seeing a rapid transition towards renewable energy there Denmark already get 64 percent of their electricity from wind and solar power.

 
The carbon tax would be a great motivator for fossil fuel companies to develop carbon neutral fuel if that was a credible alternatives.
It could be if the countries allowed lower taxes for carbon neutral fuels, but they are attached to their tax revenues.
The difference in economic viability of carbon neutral fuels, is within range of the taxes on fuel in most European countries.
While not published, I suspect that all of the big oil companies already have carbon neutral fuels,
but they are not yet economically viable, Oil needs to be about $90 a barrel, or they need cheap electricity.
 
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