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The Psychological Effects of War

Conflict

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FinnMacCool said:
I've just finished reading this article and I must say it was very interesting and informative. IT covers one of the most ignored and least looked upon cost of fighting; the demoralizing, tragic pyschological affects it has on all those who participate in war.

http://www.killology.com/article_psychological.htm
I've seen it.

From the Satcom to the trenches. I've experienced it. I'ts horrific. It's not cool. It's not grand. It's deplorable. It's hideous.

As a young man it is easy to believe that such conflict is cool and righteous.

As one who has experienced the whistle of bullets and the bare witness of your people dying aside you.. it's anything but "cool". It's sickening.

I agree with a war of purpose. THe war we are now seeing, in Iraq, has no purpose. Our people, our kin... they are dying. They are being amputated. They are sacrificing themselves. FOR WHAT? God, it's disgusting.
 

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Hey conflict, your a pretty decent guy. I didn't know up until now that you served in the military. That's cool. You don't go parading it around like others on this site do.

I've seen it.

From the Satcom to the trenches. I've experienced it. I'ts horrific. It's not cool. It's not grand. It's deplorable. It's hideous.

As a young man it is easy to believe that such conflict is cool and righteous.

As one who has experienced the whistle of bullets and the bare witness of your people dying aside you.. it's anything but "cool". It's sickening.
I can't possibly imagine what it's like to be in that condition. I mean I'm not sure where you were fighting but I personally at one time wanted to join the military. I think it was partly due to my need to experience conflict so I could write about it. But now that I think about it, I'm not sure if that would be worthwhile--especially if I die.
I agree with a war of purpose. THe war we are now seeing, in Iraq, has no purpose. Our people, our kin... they are dying. They are being amputated. They are sacrificing themselves. FOR WHAT? God, it's disgusting.
I personally don't believe war should ever be needed unless 1) Your attacked or 2) You are under intolerable and need to overthrow it. The reason being is because one life isn never worth the price that imperial invasion ever pays. I mean even in Afghanistan, how many people did we end up killing because of air bombardments? I know for a fact that more civillian casualities suffered then civllians on Sept 11th did. Afghanistan was supposed to be our vengance? We acted our vengance upon the Afghani people, not the terrorists. And OBL still got away!

I've always felt very uncomfortable when I've talk to people who say stuff like "The troops didn't die in vain!" and stuff like that. I mean its so disgusting but I have to ask--what did they die for? Seriously.

I'm starting to think that those guys were getting killed the same way that one dies when they are hit by a speeding car. Was there any noble purpose behind getting hit by the car? But ah I guess its kinda disgusting to talk about but there you have it. Its the truth.
 
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Conflict

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FinnMacCool said:
Hey conflict, your a pretty decent guy. I didn't know up until now that you served in the military. That's cool. You don't go parading it around like others on this site do.



I can't possibly imagine what it's like to be in that condition. I mean I'm not sure where you were fighting but I personally at one time wanted to join the military. I think it was partly due to my need to experience conflict so I could write about it. But now that I think about it, I'm not sure if that would be worthwhile--especially if I die.


I personally don't believe war should ever be needed unless 1) Your attacked or 2) You are under intolerable and need to overthrow it. The reason being is because one life isn never worth the price that imperial invasion ever pays. I mean even in Afghanistan, how many people did we end up killing because of air bombardments? I know for a fact that more civillian casualities suffered then civllians on Sept 11th did. Afghanistan was supposed to be our vengance? We acted our vengance upon the Afghani people, not the terrorists. And OBL still got away!

I've always felt very uncomfortable when I've talk to people who say stuff like "The troops didn't die in vain!" and stuff like that. I mean its so disgusting but I have to ask--what did they die for? Seriously.

I'm starting to think that those guys were getting killed the same way that one dies when they are hit by a speeding car. Was there any noble purpose behind getting hit by the car? But ah I guess its kinda disgusting to talk about but there you have it. Its the truth.
People often accuse me of being against George Bush for political reason. That couldn't be farther from the truth. I voted for the damn guy in 2000. I figured nobody could be worse than Gore. That was prior to my service.

I volunteered to serve our nation as an 0-3 intelligence officer(USAF), assuming the role of an E-4 (non-commissioned occupational officer) to help our war efforts. I didn't have to be involved in this war. I chose to.

What I experienced in that time has led me to hold the position that I do. I held an esteemed role in the USAF and was honored by the United States Air Force Scientific Advisory Board. I was by no means obligated by our government to assume a lesser roll, although I still received the pay of a Captain in the Air Force while doing so.

If you were to see the bodies of the Iraquis and Soldiers/Marines... mutilated, dismantled.... Good hearted American citizens, innocent Iraqui children, women.... laying on the roads.. in the fields...



you tend to ask yourself a simple question: WHY?
 
T

The Real McCoy

Conflict said:
People often accuse me of being against George Bush for political reason. That couldn't be farther from the truth. I voted for the damn guy in 2000. I figured nobody could be worse than Gore. That was prior to my service.

I volunteered to serve our nation as an 0-3 intelligence officer(USAF), assuming the role of an E-4 (non-commissioned occupational officer) to help our war efforts. I didn't have to be involved in this war. I chose to.

What I experienced in that time has led me to hold the position that I do. I held an esteemed role in the USAF and was honored by the United States Air Force Scientific Advisory Board. I was by no means obligated by our government to assume a lesser roll, although I still received the pay of a Captain in the Air Force while doing so.

If you were to see the bodies of the Iraquis and Soldiers/Marines... mutilated, dismantled.... Good hearted American citizens, innocent Iraqui children, women.... laying on the roads.. in the fields...



you tend to ask yourself a simple question: WHY?
Gunny knows the answer to that. So does my brother who's in Iraq as we speak.
 

Conflict

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The Real McCoy said:
Gunny knows the answer to that. So does my brother who's in Iraq as we speak.
Yeah?

So if "Gunny" and your brother know the answer then why don't they just go ahead and tell us.

Of course myself and the rest of the patriots that have served our country... we realize that we are just pawns to the grand will of people like Gunny.

Gee, I always wanted to take orders from a Gunnery SARGE who does nothing more than regurgitate the will of the Bush Administration!
 
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Stace

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The Real McCoy said:
Gunny knows the answer to that. So does my brother who's in Iraq as we speak.
You know, I have a lot of respect for GySgt, and I'm sure your brother is a great guy, but if none of our other troops can answer that question, how can they?

FinnMacCool said:
You don't go parading it around like others on this site do.
Ya know, Finn, I try not to parade my military service, but I get angry when people on this site assume that because I'm liberal, I don't give two hoots about our military, I don't support them, etc. The best possible way to support the troops is to BE a troop, but only a handful of the people that say they support the troops have actually served, or done anything to significantly help them. That's why I started the thread that's linked in my signature....I understand that many people CAN'T serve in the military, for various reasons, but there are so many other ways to support the troops other than slapping a magnet on the back of your vehicle. :2razz:

In all seriousness though, I never went to Iraq or Afghanistan, but I've seen firsthand the effects that these conflicts have had on people very near and dear to me - my brother, my husband, and my brother in law. All three of them have served at least two tours overseas. Surprisingly, it wasn't my husband's first tour (the longer of the two he served, 12 months, and the one in which he saw the most action), but the second (four months). I've noticed changes in his personality and demeanor in the 11 months since he's been home....subtle changes, but they're there. It's harder for me to see the changes wrought in my brother and brother in law, as I don't see them on a regular basis, but I know that they're there all the same. And it's frustrating, because none of them will really talk about what they saw and did over there, so I don't know how to help, or what to say, especially since I never saw or did any of those things.

I don't even know where I'm going with any of this.....:sigh: Sorry for rambling on like that.
 
T

The Real McCoy

Conflict said:
Yeah?

So if "Gunny" and your brother know the answer then why don't they just go ahead and tell us.
What are you blind?

My brother is in Iraq and not a member of this forum.

Probably half of Gunny's near 4,000 posts ARE the answer to that question.



Conflict said:
Of course myself and the rest of the patriots that have served our country... we realize that we are just pawns to the grand will of people like Gunny.
All soldiers in all wars are pawns in a certain sense of the word.


Conflict said:
Gee, I always wanted to take orders from a Gunnery SARGE who does nothing more than regurgitate the will of the Bush Administration!
Was every single member of your unit and all your COs against the war?
 
T

The Real McCoy

Stace said:
You know, I have a lot of respect for GySgt, and I'm sure your brother is a great guy, but if none of our other troops can answer that question, how can they?
None of the other troops??

You can't be serious.

You think they're the only 2 individuals in the entire United States military that know why we're over there?
 

Stace

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The Real McCoy said:
None of the other troops??

You can't be serious.

You think they're the only 2 individuals in the entire United States military that know why we're over there?
Even our Commander in Chief can't give a straight and honest answer as to why we're there....do you honestly think any of the troops could?
 
T

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Stace said:
Even our Commander in Chief can't give a straight and honest answer as to why we're there....do you honestly think any of the troops could?
To take out Saddam Hussein (done) and help the Iraqis establish a free country (in progress.) This hasn't changed since March 2003.
 

Stace

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The Real McCoy said:
To take out Saddam Hussein (done) and help the Iraqis establish a free country (in progress.) This hasn't changed since March 2003.
Oh really? What happened to all of those WMDs? And the 50 other reasons we were given that were proven to be false?

Sorry, but Saddam wasn't an imminent threat to us. He didn't attack us. First rule of war: Don't go to war with people that didn't attack you.

And establish a free country? Uh, hello, NOT OUR COUNTRY, therefore, NOT OUR PROBLEM. If they wanted a free country bad enough, they would have done it themselves. It isn't our job to babysit everyone else in the world....other countries seem to manage just fine without us interfering, don't see why Iraq should be any different.
 

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FinnMacCool said:
I've just finished reading this article and I must say it was very interesting and informative. IT covers one of the most ignored and least looked upon cost of fighting; the demoralizing, tragic pyschological affects it has on all those who participate in war.

http://www.killology.com/article_psychological.htm
MacCool has never seen combat and war but he pointed to a very important aspect of war. It had been missed very in the most of debates . MacCool personally connected himself with the troops. MacCool is cool.

Please do not derail it, guys to WMD, Un Resolutions, abortions and other.

And everyone (who was there and was not there looked ) looked and expressed the same feelings.
Why. What for. For nothing.
The problem is, in my view, even if the war in Iraq was not debated, and everyone was sure it is the right war in the right time, - that would not change the feelings, the questions and the answers you all put here. It is still the same psychological effect, the same horrors. You have to kill, you have to die, and the worst of all you have to pick up pieces of bodies of your best buddies. The right cause does not change too much on personal level.

One of the things going on in Army, is that you do not exists there as a person, you exists there as a part of a unit, you are always watched over, you are leaning on persons in your unit as they are leaning on you, you may push yourself to die for them, your brothers, the cause comes the second. Also you are trained to do things, to exist automatically.

As soldiers leaning on each other and are parts of a unit, and the unit is part of troops, the troops can find support only in the nation. When a soldier comes home and find himself as a person, things fall through a hole. He has no support anymore ...well, it seems I am loosing the structure... have to go... it is very interesting to find some answers, I hope MacCool you will keep the debate when i get back.
 
T

The Real McCoy

Stace said:
Oh really? What happened to all of those WMDs? And the 50 other reasons we were given that were proven to be false?
50 other reasons that were proven to be false? Such as?


Stace said:
Sorry, but Saddam wasn't an imminent threat to us. He didn't attack us. First rule of war: Don't go to war with people that didn't attack you.
Well then, guess we shouldn't have bothered with South Korea. Or Kuwait.


Stace said:
And establish a free country? Uh, hello, NOT OUR COUNTRY, therefore, NOT OUR PROBLEM.
You're right. We exist within an immpenetrable bubble that seals us off from the rest of the world. Nothing that happens anywhere outside our borders is our problem. Mudslides in the Phillipines? Not our problem. Earthquake in Pakistan? Not our problem. Tsunami in Southern Asia? Not our problem. Islamic radicalism? Not our problem. Let's just get Osama, Zawahiri and other 9/11 plotters and then everything will magically be happy again.

Or how about you go to South Korea and tell the people there that we shouldn't have established a free country there because they shouldn't have been our problem.




Stace said:
If they wanted a free country bad enough, they would have done it themselves.
Done it themselves? How?

Speak out against Hussein = tongue cut out.

Babies were thrown against walls infront of their parents.

Eyes were gouged out.

Not exactly an invitation to rebel.


Stace said:
It isn't our job to babysit everyone else in the world....other countries seem to manage just fine without us interfering, don't see why Iraq should be any different.
SEEM being the keyword there. To the average American on 9/10/01, the world SEEMED pretty peaceful.
 

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McCoy, I have this to say to you: When has another country ever babysat us?

NEVER.

So why should we babysit them? IT IS NOT OUR COUNTRY TO RUN. How hard is that to understand?

Using your logic, England or France or any other country should have the right to come invade us because they might not like Bush and want to liberate us from him. So why haven't they?

Because our country is not theirs to control. Other countries get it, so why don't we?
 
T

The Real McCoy

Stace said:
McCoy, I have this to say to you: When has another country ever babysat us?

NEVER.
When has an infant been put in charge of a teenage babysitter?


Stace said:
So why should we babysit them? IT IS NOT OUR COUNTRY TO RUN. How hard is that to understand?
How hard is it for you to understand we have interests that extend beyond our borders, not just economic but for security purposes. And no, it isn't Hussein having WMDs.


Stace said:
Using your logic, England or France or any other country should have the right to come invade us because they might not like Bush and want to liberate us from him. So why haven't they?
Liberate us? The man has 3 years left, maximum. We have a media that is fully free to criticize and bash our leader.

To compare us to Iraq is absurd.


Stace said:
Because our country is not theirs to control. Other countries get it, so why don't we?
Europe gets it?? Hahaha. Good one. I like you stace. You're funny. :2wave:
 

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Your diatribe here-in, mr. Mccoy, speaks volumes of how you actually support the troops. You denigrate them. You ridicule them. You are the young man that I spoke of, which was myself. The one that thought war was cool, until he actually experienced it. It's so easy to sit there playing your video games, eating your cheese-its... all the while logging on here and proclaiming that you have an inkling of what you are talking about.

The only way you could deal with the true nature of conflict is to deny it. I'm not one to whine about war and death. However, I'm pragmatic in the sense that I DO KNOW when war is necessary. That is something that can only be understood empirically. I am trying to believe that you are just naive. I hope that's the case. Sincerely. Keep pressing me though and I will put 100% of my intent into finding out for sure, and rest assured that I can and will.
 
T

The Real McCoy

Conflict said:
Your diatribe here-in, mr. Mccoy, speaks volumes of how you actually support the troops. You denigrate them. You ridicule them. You are the young man that I spoke of, which was myself. The one that thought war was cool, until he actually experienced it. It's so easy to sit there playing your video games, eating your cheese-its... all the while logging on here and proclaiming that you have an inkling of what you are talking about.

The only way you could deal with the true nature of conflict is to deny it. I'm not one to whine about war and death. However, I'm pragmatic in the sense that I DO KNOW when war is necessary. That is something that can only be understood empirically. I am trying to believe that you are just naive. I hope that's the case. Sincerely. Keep pressing me though and I will put 100% of my intent into finding out for sure, and rest assured that I can and will.
See, your statements might hold water if I didn't have friends and my only brother over there right now (his 2nd stint), telling me about the things they've seen and the cause that they're fighting for and that they believe is worth it. Your opinion is far from unanimous among the armed forces and, granted, I haven't been there, I know damn well that the fight is worth it.

And how do I denigrate and ridicule our soldiers? Give me one example.
 

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The Real McCoy said:
See, your statements might hold water if I didn't have friends and my only brother over there right now (his 2nd stint), telling me about the things they've seen and the cause that they're fighting for and that they believe is worth it. Your opinion is far from unanimous among the armed forces and, granted, I haven't been there, I know damn well that the fight is worth it.

And how do I denigrate and ridicule our soldiers? Give me one example.
What you're being told by your friends and your brother are far from being the unanimous opinion as well. I've had/have NUMEROUS friends over there...which ya know, tends to happen when you serve four years. My cousin has been. My brother. My brother in law. My sister in law. My husband. Sure, you can find a handful there that will say that it's all worth it. But most of them? A couple of the standard responses are that the extra money is the only thing that's worth it; that they could have sat around playing XBOX at home; etc.

You say it's worth it? Would it be worth it to you to lose your lower extremeties, or worse, your life, while guarding a trash dump? Ah, well, too late, two of our countrie's finest have already taken care of that one for you.
 

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I know for myself that different
people handle it in different ways.
Some are better then others but by
No means does it make them weak!
I agree with some but not the entire article.

I was lucky 90% of my family has served in the military.
My wife is ex Army and even my mother in law was in the Marines!
But even with the two of them, I have some things I cant even talk to them about.
I guess it’s the “If you haven’t lived it you wont understand it.”
 
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