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The Problem With Public Schools-Teacher's Unions

Patrickt said:
Clearly, the school is not responsible for 100% of the students learning to read, write, and do math. But, at some point, the school system has to except some responsibility. If 10% learn the school is, in my opinion, failing to meet their responsibility. If 80% learn, they are doing a good job.
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What's a fair way to determine that?

How do you fix the schools that are failing to meet their responsibility?

Actually, I'ma start me a new thread. . .
 
Maybe you can bring a horse to water, but you can't make him drink if his parents didn't support the value of water! You can however blame the river!
 
"Maybe you can bring a horse to water, but you can't make him drink if his parents didn't support the value of water! You can however blame the river!"

Bad news. The educational system isn't a river and the students aren't horses. The analogy is pitiful.
 
Patrickt said:
"Maybe you can bring a horse to water, but you can't make him drink if his parents didn't support the value of water! You can however blame the river!"

Bad news. The educational system isn't a river and the students aren't horses. The analogy is pitiful.
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:lol: lol no ****! By your logic no analogy ever said would be good.
 
Patrickt said:
"Maybe you can bring a horse to water, but you can't make him drink if his parents didn't support the value of water! You can however blame the river!"

Bad news. The educational system isn't a river and the students aren't horses. The analogy is pitiful.
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Obviously you don't understand the concept of analogies! The analogy is spot on! You just don't like the obvious truth of it! It doesn't support your anti public school ideology.

The obvious reality is that if some kids can get a good education at a school they couldn't get it if it wasn't available. "Little Johnny" is into rap, violent computer games and wearing his pants below his arse. You and "Little Johnny's" parent want to blame that on his school instead of "Little Johnny"!

I was raised in poverty by a single parent mother who sang the praises of education. She took the belt to me when I wouldn't drink at the "river of education". She rightly blamed my attitude first before blaming my teachers! What a concept! With a few bumps along the way, I received graduate degrees, became a public school teacher and I am now in retirement worth over seven figures.

Educational opportunities and teachers are better now than when I was a kid. The real difference is that more Americans refuse to take responsibility for their own lives and the kids the create with so little thought! Gee, my wife and I thought maybe we should become reponsible adults that wore their hats straight and pants above their arses before we actually GOT MARRIED (what a concept!) and reproduced! You want to know what's wrong with our or public schools? Look at the values of the immature American parents who had "Little Johnny" and sent him to school to be disciplined and taught the values they themselves do not have!!
 
ouch. so misguided. do you know the real purpose of the teacher unions?? its to protect the teachers' butt from all sorts of outrageous circumstances such as discrimination, being sued by parents ( for whatever reason-warrented or not), low pay with high bills... and so on. its not a question of what to teach. the federal, state and local governments along with the school board and the school administration decide that. its up to the teacher to tow the party line, deal with the students and whatever problems they have, try to educate them, even if they dont want to be. its not like the Unions are advocating not working. but they are trying to keep up with everything. how many other professions out there, with employees having a degree get paid only around $27,000 a year?? most of them are paid $30,000 or more right from the start. and those jobs dont have all the pitfalls that a teacher has to deal with! so, if I was a teacher, and I had the option to join a Union, I would. why? because too many people for one, like to sue for no reason, just to get some more money etc, and 2) to have someone having my back if I get fired for some stupid unnecessary reason.
 
Okay, Mr. D, so if the river water is polluted and the horse doesn't drink, it's the horse's fault? Or, if the horse has been hit every time he tried to drink from the river, is it his fault he doesn't drink when you lead him there?

Perhaps this will help you.
a·nal·o·gy (Ã nalÆÃ j"), n., pl. -gies.
1. a similarity between like features of two things, on which a comparison may be based: the analogy between the heart and a pump.

Now, perhaps you could explain the similarities in the features of a river and a school system? Or, perhaps a student and a horse?
 
Students neigh when they are in class Patrickt, didn't you know that, that is why the analogy is simple. It seems that you are destined to not get it from the get-go, I will watch as others undoubtedly try to explain this to you in vain.
 
i cant believe this has gone 16 pages....
how many of you work jobs that have unions? how many of you are members of those unions? what do those unions do for you? make sure your working conditions are fair and safe, you dont get screwed in your pay, things that employers should do, but dont, right? so what is so wrong, acquapub, with teachers unions? teachers are more than likely to be sued than many other jobs that have unions. should they not have help? all it takes is one student who doesnt like you to say, he raped my, and your in a heap of trouble, loss of job and jailtime, if your not careful, whether it is true or not. teachers unions help to make sure that justice is done.
 
t125eagle said:
i cant believe this has gone 16 pages....
how many of you work jobs that have unions? how many of you are members of those unions? what do those unions do for you? make sure your working conditions are fair and safe, you dont get screwed in your pay, things that employers should do, but dont, right? so what is so wrong, acquapub, with teachers unions? teachers are more than likely to be sued than many other jobs that have unions. should they not have help? all it takes is one student who doesnt like you to say, he raped my, and your in a heap of trouble, loss of job and jailtime, if your not careful, whether it is true or not. teachers unions help to make sure that justice is done.
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Don't take it too seriously; this thread has become the default thread for discussion about what's wrong with schools today, and it's covered every possible answer to that. It keeps coming back to whether or not teachers get paid enough, but otherwise, it's more of a sounding board than an actual discussion of the OP. I don't think anyone is still arguing that teachers' unions are universally evil -- though I have to give you props for the excellent post explaining why they aren't evil. Aquapub, though, hasn't been on this thread for a while (though neither have I, so I might have missed him) and has gone on in his ADD-Mad Bomber way to start several new offensive threads he can use to verbally assault anyone who comes near. Think of a rabid badger caught in a leg trap, and you've got a handle on Aquapub.
 
Patrickt said:
Okay, Mr. D, so if the river water is polluted and the horse doesn't drink, it's the horse's fault? Or, if the horse has been hit every time he tried to drink from the river, is it his fault he doesn't drink when you lead him there?

Perhaps this will help you.
a·nal·o·gy (Ã nalÆÃ j"), n., pl. -gies.
1. a similarity between like features of two things, on which a comparison may be based: the analogy between the heart and a pump.

Now, perhaps you could explain the similarities in the features of a river and a school system? Or, perhaps a student and a horse?
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I'd try to explain it to you, but in your case, "You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink!" :D

For those who will consider the issue with an open mind, the point has always been that schools and teachers are not perfect, but the major impediment to learning in this country is the lack of interest in learning!!! That is why some kids get a good education in the same public school that "fails" poor little Johnny Hip Hop! Look at any middle class school with a high percentage of Asian American students and you'll see the proof, but of course that might dispell the myth and we'd have to be responsible for our own values! The public school scapegoat is much easier!
 
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sadly so. schools have become much more than placed of education now. skills that prob should be taught at home are being taught at schools. which takes time away from learning other things
 
t125eagle said:
sadly so. schools have become much more than placed of education now. skills that prob should be taught at home are being taught at schools. which takes time away from learning other things
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Right! Schools don't have many tools to enforce values and discipline if the parent doesn't at home. Contemporary society expects too little from our children in terms of behavior and discipline. It is common to see children take away others rights by screaming and misbehaving in restaurants. They hold adults hostage because nothing can be done to discipline them without someone screaming child abuse. Many parents don't even hear the screaming anymore. There was a time when parents only allowed children to scream and cry when there was a reason other than not getting what they want!! The parents my wife and I had used to give us what was called the "family look" and we knew to behave in a CONSIDERATE MANNER or face the consequences. Thank God my parents "lovingly" swatted me on the pants when appropriate or I might have wound up in prison like so many others. The fact we no longer understand the difference between a swat on the butt and child abuse has affected our public schools. Many children in schools know who's in control, and it's not the teachers! Our society has created that!

I'm old enough to have taught when boys got swats by the principal. In many ways it was more humane than pyscho babble methods used today. The vast majority of the boys shook the principal's hand with a smile and left feeling free of criticism and with a new start. They understood that the swat was out of concern for them and never done in anger or for retribution. It was to get the boy's attention and show a commitment to the belief in the value of good behavior. It meant we care about you and how you are growing. The boys knew the difference between corporal punishment as discipline out of caring and child abuse based in anger and retribution as found in our prisons. I'm not saying we should go back to corporal punishment, but we better find a replacement that works if we want our schools and society to improve.

I received more than my share of swats as a child and I have been very successful and have not become a serial killer or never shot people from a tower! Intelligent people know the difference between a swat on the pants out of love and angry child abuse from an ignorant adult. Even aninals know that difference!
 
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well, we USED to know the difference. then all the psychologists got into it.....
 
Psychology is the new religion. They get to decide what is sane and what is ethical. They determine what is best for the children and untinking parents just suck it up. Schools have become experiments in how to deal with a youth that does not understand structure and consistency, yet this is what they desire most. I can't remember how many times kids were disrespectful in class growing up. I am young, so this is recent. Kids that disrupt class and the teachers attention. Even if the teacher sent them out quickly or had a quick side discussion, it was still a disruption. Then, many times, others kids who have no self-control would start blurting stuff out to take advantage of the lull. It is pathetic. Teaching would suck, that is why I am going into psychology! :2razz:
 
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