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The Problem With Public Schools-Teacher's Unions

CaptainCourtesy

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Rhapsody1447 said:
I think that through Bodi's testimony, Richard Vedder's economic report, and CaptainCourtesy's research we have seen that teachers make much more then most people think they do.

:confused: Ummm...did I miss something? I thought my research showed the opposite. That the wage/hour information was flawed and that teachers make less than thought/reported. Ithink you misquoted me, Rhapsody1447.
 

dthmstr254

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CaptainCourtesy said:
:confused: Ummm...did I miss something? I thought my research showed the opposite. That the wage/hour information was flawed and that teachers make less than thought/reported. Ithink you misquoted me, Rhapsody1447.

Yeah, I thought there was something off-whack. Hey Rhap, go do your own research instead of lying about other people.
 

nogoodname

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like i stated before that is one reason another is the teachers union we can easly fix this but no one is doing it we need better people running these school districts in the ghettos making it so people expect more out of these kids so they will amount to those standereds. Ask any teacher when they set higher standereds the kids will rise to them but in the ghettos we accept them failing and say its ok.
 

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nogoodname said:
like i stated before that is one reason another is the teachers union we can easly fix this but no one is doing it we need better people running these school districts in the ghettos making it so people expect more out of these kids so they will amount to those standereds. Ask any teacher when they set higher standereds the kids will rise to them but in the ghettos we accept them failing and say its ok.


So should we deduce from this that you live in a ghetto?
 

CaptainCourtesy

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nogoodname said:
like i stated before that is one reason another is the teachers union we can easly fix this but no one is doing it we need better people running these school districts in the ghettos making it so people expect more out of these kids so they will amount to those standereds. Ask any teacher when they set higher standereds the kids will rise to them but in the ghettos we accept them failing and say its ok.

Sometimes when teachers set higher standards, students fail anyway. Sometimes a student will rise above a teachers low expectations. Ultimately, the student has the final responsibility for how well he/she does in accordance to their intelligence level. What a teacher (or parent) does can have an impact (sometimes a great impact), but the student's own motivation factor is is really the final say.
 

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Firstly, I disagree that Unions are a problem. The fact that teacher's unions are looking out for the interests of teacher's shouldn't be shocking anybody. Isn't that the point of a union? I also suppose we should oppose any other unions, because they only look out for the interests of their members, and not the advancement of their members' occupation. In fact, a strong teacher's union can only help, because it gives the people who are educating America's future a chance to be compensated for their toil. The idea that teacher's unions are a burden goes to show how undervalued American educators are.

I strongly agree with the above post. My mom is a teacher, so I know first hand that no matter how many different "plans" or "strategies" you make, or how much money you throw at improving our schools, it doesn't matter if you do not have quality teachers who inspire their pupils to give a full effort. Don't get me wrong, you gotta pony up the greenbacks because money definitely has a role in a succesful education program, but you can't substitute benjamins for teaching well.
 

nogoodname

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CaptainCourtesy said:
Sometimes when teachers set higher standards, students fail anyway. Sometimes a student will rise above a teachers low expectations. Ultimately, the student has the final responsibility for how well he/she does in accordance to their intelligence level. What a teacher (or parent) does can have an impact (sometimes a great impact), but the student's own motivation factor is is really the final say.
thats bs are u a teacher? If u ask any teacher of mine or at my school they say when they raise standereds kids raise to them some fail but most succeed or match it.
 

CaptainCourtesy

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nogoodname said:
thats bs are u a teacher? If u ask any teacher of mine or at my school they say when they raise standereds kids raise to them some fail but most succeed or match it.

Don't agree. Remeber what I said. Although teachers can have a significant impact on student performance, a student's personal motivation is the most important factor. A teacher raising the bar may encourage a student to do better...or may make a student veer away from a more strenuous challenge.
 

dthmstr254

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nogoodname said:
thats bs are u a teacher? If u ask any teacher of mine or at my school they say when they raise standereds kids raise to them some fail but most succeed or match it.

No, it really just splits the bar 50/50. It makes the ones who are hard workers work harder, and the ones who don't like the hard work fail even worse.
 

BodiSatva

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Originally Posted by nogoodname
thats bs are u a teacher? If u ask any teacher of mine or at my school they say when they raise standereds kids raise to them some fail but most succeed or match it.

This is incorrect. Initially, all standards are set so that all students will excel together and meet AP Critical Thinking level classes.

Why do we not see most students in AP if the standard is set and students end up being in Academic/College Prep or Sheltered or Survey/Remedial classes? It is for various reasons, but ultimately it is the student that is not stepping up to the plate and not meeting standards.

Originally Posted by Rhapsody1447
I think that through Bodi's testimony, Richard Vedder's economic report, and CaptainCourtesy's research we have seen that teachers make much more then most people think they do.

Yeah...teachers make more than most people think they do given the amount of time that they actually work...but it is not that much really.
 
F

FallingPianos

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The NEA: "The major purpose of our association is not the education of children, rather it is, or ought to be the extension and/or preservation of our members' rights."

same with every other union, what is your point?

The amount teachers get paid considering the amount of time they put in and the amount of education required for the job is rediculously low. Not to meantion all the bureaucracy they have to put up with on the job. They have every right to demand more pay and more respect.
 

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You don't demand respect. You earn it. Of course, whining is good, too.

The people who report the time put in are always relying on self-reporting by teachers. That is not a way to collect accurate information.
 

dthmstr254

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Patrickt said:
You don't demand respect. You earn it. Of course, whining is good, too.

The people who report the time put in are always relying on self-reporting by teachers. That is not a way to collect accurate information.

Observation is an effective way to collect information. My aunt worked in only one class and still put in at least 40 hours a week, not counting the work she did at home. That is my personal observation, and that is the person working only one class. If she is putting that much work into one class, how much is required for a teacher in five classes? Much more than that. One of my teachers at my college said, "Like that really matters, given the difficulty of the job," when I said what Rhapsody said about teachers getting off in the summer. He put in 10 years in a high school before teaching college. Colleges teaching education majors have on the course listing that there are no real financial opportunities with only a bachelor's degree in education. This doesn't mean that there are no openings, this is because there isn't a financial future in teaching high school classes. They do not pay well enough and you need a higher degree to get to the next step above as an administrator in a school. If you want me to, I can pull up and post those college course listings if you like.
 

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Of course, working 40 hours a week is normal but most people do it for 47 weeks a year. And, yes, other people take work home, too, but that part is always self-reported. One of the benefits of being a school teacher is the time off. I'm not knocking teaching. For a variety of reasons, I wouldn't want to do it.

If teaching, or any other career, doesn't have a salary you can live on, do something else. I never earned a lot of money but I got by, enjoyed my work, and had no regrets.
 

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I came into the teaching profession fully aware they didn't pay as much as the other professions. After a great deal of consideration I decided I could live on the salary of a teacher. I'm not interested in belonging to the union. I don't want my union dues to support people I would't vote for. I feel that's wrong.
 

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Loki: You have my respect. I was a police officer and I, too, decided I could live on the salary. I actually enjoyed the shift work and when I was young, and had young children, I usually had a second, part-time, job.

When the union came in it was very popular with the corrupt, brutal, and incompetent. I never joined or had any use for the union. Fortunately, we didn't have a closed shop where joining the union was mandatory.
 

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Personally I don't think that there is any one reason for all the problems in our schools. Sure, the Teachers Unions are definitely not helping, but blame can be found everywhere from the individual students all the way to Congress, the White House, and the Department of Education.

There are a lot of things that can be done though. School choice and vouchers would provide students with more opportunities and choices then the current system, tougher requirements for teachers as well a performance, not seniority pay plans. As well, salaries should be raised to encourage more potentially good teachers into the profession (I've often thought about teaching myself, but the low pay keeps me away). Lesson plans and curriculum also need improvement. I think the best example here is the AP program, which roughly equals one year of college work. While most American students rank near the bottem in international tests, students who have taken AP classes rank in the top 3. More students need to be taking these courses, especially in the math and sciences. Students should also be allowed to take more courses in areas that interest them. If a student wants to take extra English classes, or take both physics and biology, the option should be open. In addition, school should be year round and the day would best start and end an hour later than most current schools. These are a few ideas I've read about or come up with. Does anyone have any comments or other ideas?
 

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Patrickt said:
Loki: You have my respect. I was a police officer and I, too, decided I could live on the salary. I actually enjoyed the shift work and when I was young, and had young children, I usually had a second, part-time, job.

When the union came in it was very popular with the corrupt, brutal, and incompetent. I never joined or had any use for the union. Fortunately, we didn't have a closed shop where joining the union was mandatory.

A cop? You have mine. I seem to remember that from a discussion we had eons ago. PM me sometime and tell me about mexico these days. My principle did a tour with a couple of his kid this summer, he had a great time.
 

dthmstr254

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Patrickt said:
Of course, working 40 hours a week is normal but most people do it for 47 weeks a year. And, yes, other people take work home, too, but that part is always self-reported. One of the benefits of being a school teacher is the time off. I'm not knocking teaching. For a variety of reasons, I wouldn't want to do it.

If teaching, or any other career, doesn't have a salary you can live on, do something else. I never earned a lot of money but I got by, enjoyed my work, and had no regrets.

The time off? So the heck what. It is more of a pain than it looks, dealing with obstinate children and even more obstinate parents? accreditations that can cost in the thousands??? It isn't worth the time off.
 

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The Education Gravy Train

If teaching is short hours, easy work and great money, why don't all you parents that are experts on education get a teaching credential? You can live the soft, easy life teaching America's little darlings and being blamed for our society's lousy values by the rest of the head in the sand, deep in denial parents in this country! Meanwhile watch the Asian immigrant kids excel in our lousy schools with those terrible unions and lazy teachers without a even a clue how they do it! :roll:
 

dthmstr254

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Mr. D said:
The Education Gravy Train

If teaching is short hours, easy work and great money, why don't all you parents that are experts on education get a teaching credential? You can live the soft, easy life teaching America's little darlings and being blamed for our society's lousy values by the rest of the head in the sand, deep in denial parents in this country! Meanwhile watch the Asian immigrant kids excel in our lousy schools with those terrible unions and lazy teachers without a even a clue how they do it! :roll:

It might offend some of you, but I don't care: AMEN!:smile:
 

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dthmstr254 said:
It might offend some of you, but I don't care: AMEN!:smile:

It's much easier that way isn't it! By the way, the Amen was appropriate! :roll:
I've gotten to the point that when anyone say's they are a Christian, I put my hand on my wallet and hope God didn't talk to them lately because allot seems to get lost in the translation!

I see one of your mentors is Limbaugh sitting on his fat arse, popping illegally attained drugs and spouting negativity, false information and prejudice while dividing our country for a fat paycheck! What an fine American!

This country survived the Civil War and the Great Depression, so it can survive the current group of "It's all about me!" self rightous Americans leading us backwards to simple mindedness, prejudice and feeding the military industrial complex while waving flags!

"This too will change!"
 
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Patrickt

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There, folks, is a wonderful example of non sequitur.

The comments about the hours and months the teachers work has been in response to whining from some about how much teachers work. For people who work in other fields the whining doesn't get much sympathy.
 

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dthmstr254 said:
They take our children's private property away from them without the consent of the parents.

I have to disagree here. The rest of the debate be darned, I'm only talking
about this line.

My son and daughter have been providing "private property" school supplies
for quite some time. The school board made this decision to have parents
provide some basic supplies so the school didn't have to spend tax dollars
on them. They made it clear to the taxpayers these items cost several
hundreds of thousands of dollars per year throughout the district. The list
includes (depending on age/grade): pens, pencils, facial tissue, napkins,
rulers, calculators, toilet paper (yep!), notebook paper, erasers, folders,
notepads, chalk, etc. It was made clear these items were for redistribution
within the various classes the students attended in a letter to every
taxpaying household of the district.

Those without kids applauded this effort because the school board didn't
ask for a rise in the school millage for almost 7 years. They stretched
a 4 year commitment to 7 then only asked for a small increase along
with the renewal. This is good stewardship of taxpayer dollars. The
school board provided the building, teachers and textbooks while the
parents with school age children provided the consumable items.

They went further by requiring every textbook to be covered each
year by the student. This made the covers and bindings last far longer
than they normally would have. They are also vigilant in ensuring
the book is returned in very good condition (I have first hand knowledge
after spending $60 on one of my daughter's books last year). Again,
good stewardship. They're making the parents pay directly for issues
such as damaged and lost books rather than strapping the entire
taxpaying public with that burden.

I drifted from your original line, sorry.
 
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Mr. D

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Based on the negativity and head in the sand attitude of some posting here, the vast majority of children come to a public school with wonderful values, good discipline and a strong desire to pay attention and learn. It has been given to them by parents who support education, but the teachers of America just refuse to teach those wonderful children properly!

Let's stick with this explanation so we don't have to look at our society and the values our children have been taught!

For the 8,345,689,567,395th time, who is going to explain why Asian immigrant children can get a great education in our "failing schools" and go to our best colleges to become doctors and scientists? Step up and answer that question! We all know the real answer, but it's fun to hear people try to weasel around it! :roll:
 
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