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The problem with God

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Might as well start my forum career on the most controversial subject out there. :mrgreen:


I used to be a Christian. Now I realize that there are major problems with organized religious beliefs. Philosophy helped me realize this. But when I finally admitted it to myself my mind opened up and I began to persue the thoughts that I had previously blocked from my mind for fear of the true answers.

There is one major problem all the worlds major religions share in my humble opinion. That is good and evil. I will stick to the Christian God since I know Christianity better than I know any other religion, but it applies to Islam and Judiasm as well.

So my question for the Christians is first to open your mind and answer the following truthfully and second to refute it if you possibly can using LOGIC.

God is all good.
That means evil came from outside of God.
Good + Evil = Free Will
Without good you cannot define evil. Without evil you cannot define good.
If only good existed, then there would be no free will.

So if God is incapable of creating evil, and God needed evil to give human beings free will, then whatever created evil is what defined God as good and what gave humans free will.

So here are my questions to you.

1. How can you say God is responsible for something (free will) which he is incapable of creating himself without the help of some other being?

2. What makes him God if he is incapable of creating free will by himself?

3. Where does this God get the right to judge the beings that were affected by an outside source (evil) that God has no control over creating.

A problem that has been floating around in my head for awhile, I'd like to hear an answer if any religious person can give one. Thanks.
 
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So here are my questions to you.

1. How can you say God is responsible for something (free will) which he is incapable of creating himself without the help of some other being?

2. What makes him God if he is incapable of creating free will by himself?

3. Where does this God get the right to judge the beings that were affected by an outside source (evil) that God has no control over creating.

A problem that has been floating around in my head for awhile, I'd like to hear an answer if any religious person can give one. Thanks.

Well a "christian" response would be: God gets the "right" to judge the being because in the "religion" God created all beings. But what does this have to do with Jesus......why don't you ask a muslim or a jew these questions. If you were a christian, I dont understand why you don't have questions about Jesus.
 
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i believe in tranquility said:
Well a "christian" response would be: God gets the "right" to judge the being because in the "religion" God created all beings. But what does this have to do with Jesus......why don't you ask a muslim or a jew these questions. If you were a christian, I dont understand why you don't have questions about Jesus.


'm not asking jews or muslims because I know less about their religions than I do the Christian one. I am not a Christian basher but my question has still not been answered at all and applies to all religions that claim their god is all good with a right to judge all mankind.

God does not have the right to judge a being that is affected by something for which God cannot create himself (evil).

Infact God needs the outside source of evil just to define himself as good! So God cannot even define himself as all good unless the outside source of evil is present for which he can compare himself against.
 

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RealmOfThePureForms said:
God is all good.
That means evil came from outside of God.
Good + Evil = Free Will
Without good you cannot define evil. Without evil you cannot define good.
If only good existed, then there would be no free will.

So if God is incapable of creating evil, and God needed evil to give human beings free will, then whatever created evil is what defined God as good and what gave humans free will.

I'd like to hear an answer if any religious person can give one. Thanks.
I am a self-made Christian, and if a home made philosopher.
So, what I say may not be exactly as a reading should be.

Just the first thing coming on my mind.

You defined God.
You defined well.
You assumed evil to exist outside God. Ok let’s use your assumption.
You did not define free will.

You wrote Good + Evil =Free will.
Is free will good in opinion of good God?
It is good, because God does good things including Free Will.
So,
Free will = Good
Now, we can put in equation: Good + Evil =Good.
At your will you can write: Good+ Evil=God=Good

God is always good.
Or if you put Evil outside God:
Good=God=Good.

Now this is how it is described in the Bible:
Genesis. It is an excellent turn how God put Adam and Eve in Eden all created by God and what they did. Warned by God against Evil, they really started Evil at their free will and made God angry. God washed his hands and stayed good. Read.

I may not be so good in my understanding, but I am not a theologist. Once I heard on radio a Jewish theologist announcing the same type of questions and giving answers to himself. I don’t remember exactly: If God is almighty he can lift any kind of weight. Can he create a weight which would be heavier than God can lift? Add to your list of breaking head queistions if you like it.
God bless.
 
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'm not asking jews or muslims because I know less about their religions than I do the Christian one. I am not a Christian basher but my question has still not been answered at all and applies to all religions that claim their god is all good with a right to judge all mankind.

God does not have the right to judge a being that is affected by something for which God cannot create himself (evil).

Infact God needs the outside source of evil just to define himself as good! So God cannot even define himself as all good unless the outside source of evil is present for which he can compare himself against.

The Jews and Muslims view "God" as good and has the right to judge mankind.
God creates evil and good, there is an opposite for everything.
My problem with this whole subject is that it should include Judaism, Islam, AND Christianity. What I dont understand is you talk so much about christianity (NOT SAYING THAT YOU ARE A BASHER), but you don't speak of Jesus (the most important element of "Christ"ianity.
 

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RealmOfThePureForms said:
1. How can you say God is responsible for something (free will) which he is incapable of creating himself without the help of some other being?

How do you know there aren't other beings? Every Bible I've ever read discusses God creating this and God creating that followed by WE looked and WE decided it was good. Whose WE??? For that matter who are the GIANTS that supposedly starting breeding with God's creations?

2. What makes him God if he is incapable of creating free will by himself?

Or better yet if God knows and sees all that has ever happened and will ever happen then is it really free will? And why is God so shocked and angered in the Bible when he supposedly knows everything that will happen before it happens?

3. Where does this God get the right to judge the beings that were affected by an outside source (evil) that God has no control over creating.

Or for that matter how can God be all good when in the Bible he clearly promotes and engages in genocide????
 
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RealmOfThePureForms said:
God is all good.
That means evil came from outside of God.
You make three assumptions here to support your logic:

1) God is all good.
The only being who knows the distinction between 'good' and 'not good' is God. To state that God is all good implies that your knowledge of God is on a par with that of God.

2) That means evil came from outside of God.
Either God created everything or God did not create everything. If the former is true, God indeed created evil. If the latter is true, then there are two Creators.

3) You assume that there are two oppositional forces... good and evil. There is no way to discern if this assumption is true. Read scripture. There are numerous examples of God initiating or ordering mayhem. Can you discern unequivocally whether these episodes are good or evil? Is goodness only what God says it is or is it what God does by example? Conversely, is evil only what God says it is or is it what God does by example? If good and evil are only what God says they are, then God apparently violates this precept by example. If good and evil are only what God does by example, then God violates what God says. The point is, you can't simply assume to know the mind of God.
 

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1. How can you say God is responsible for something (free will) which he is incapable of creating himself without the help of some other being?

2. What makes him God if he is incapable of creating free will by himself?

God did create free will, which means that, yes, he did make good and evil.

3. Where does this God get the right to judge the beings that were affected by an outside source (evil) that God has no control over creating.

When God created us, he gave us the right to choose. If God created us to be good, then we couldn't be evil, thus destroying our moral universe and turning us into mindless, good-doing drones. When God made the universe, he did just that. When Adam and Eve ate of the forbidden fruit, they lost their sense of neutrality, and gained the power to think for themselves.

That's the beauty behind the Lord: He loves us so much that, even if He wants us all to return to heaven with Him, He allows us to decide which path we want to take.
 

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These things I believe to be true or most probably true:

1) God is.

2) God for whatever reason--He did not explain Himself to His creation--made a universe in which free will and choice are possible. The alternative would be a universe of manipulated puppets with no thoughts, abilities, possibilities, or capacity for love.

3) All evil, bad things, and/or unfortunate consequences are a result of my sin, the sin of somebody else, or the cumulative sin of all the generations. Sin is defined as that which harms oneself and/or anybody else.

4) To attempt to narrow any definition of God down to human comprehension is an exercise in futility.
 

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Don't forget the "Good" and "Evil" are opinions. By my book, God causing the mass slaughter of Jericho is "evil". Killing anyone, not matter their crime is evil.


It's just a matter of opinion.
 

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RealmOfThePureForms said:
Might as well start my forum career on the most controversial subject out there. :mrgreen:


I used to be a Christian. Now I realize that there are major problems with organized religious beliefs. Philosophy helped me realize this. But when I finally admitted it to myself my mind opened up and I began to persue the thoughts that I had previously blocked from my mind for fear of the true answers.

There is one major problem all the worlds major religions share in my humble opinion. That is good and evil. I will stick to the Christian God since I know Christianity better than I know any other religion, but it applies to Islam and Judiasm as well.

So my question for the Christians is first to open your mind and answer the following truthfully and second to refute it if you possibly can using LOGIC.

God is all good.
That means evil came from outside of God.
Good + Evil = Free Will
Without good you cannot define evil. Without evil you cannot define good.
If only good existed, then there would be no free will.

So if God is incapable of creating evil, and God needed evil to give human beings free will, then whatever created evil is what defined God as good and what gave humans free will.

So here are my questions to you.

1. How can you say God is responsible for something (free will) which he is incapable of creating himself without the help of some other being?

2. What makes him God if he is incapable of creating free will by himself?

3. Where does this God get the right to judge the beings that were affected by an outside source (evil) that God has no control over creating.

A problem that has been floating around in my head for awhile, I'd like to hear an answer if any religious person can give one. Thanks.

God told Adam to not eat from the tree of knowledge, because then Adam would be like God and know good and evil; whereas before, Adam was like a child, only knowing what God told him. But he ate the fruit and then became aware of things that he didn't need to know. And for that he was punished. This all right there in Genesis. in the first two chapters. God CAN do evil, but he CHOOSES not to do evil. The Ten Commandments also shows where God defined the difference between Good and Evil, thus showing once again that God knows evil (therefore he created it) ands lets us know good from evil, since we now know what evil is.
Before the fruit, Adam and Eve only did what they were told to do, and God didn't say to only listen to Him. So that loophole, Lucifer played on (at the time Lucifer was a high ranking angel of God) since he envied humans and was jealous and angry at God for giving control of the earth to humans; of which Lucifer thought humans to be inferior (Lucifer was both proud and arrogant). So Lucifer tempted Eve into eating the fruit, thus teeing off God. But something happened that Lucifer didn't forsee. Eve snitched (only because Adam snitched on her; it was the first blame game)...... and now I just lost my train of thought. Oh well.
 

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In any event, it is futile to apply logic or unequivocal certainty to the realm of the metaphysical.
 
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donkey...i just going to ask some fun questions for a fellow "christian" it seems...lol

1. Do you honestly take the two Genesis creation stories literally?

2. Where does it say literally "Lucifer" in any of the creation stories?.. I dont recall that reference.


Something to keep in mind: In Hebrew text (the original text of the Old Testament), the word Adam trasnaltes to: the human race. And the word Eve translates to life, so if you keep that in mind when you read this text, it comes to: the "human race" picked the friut, and "life" sprung forth (eve eating the fruit).
 

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i believe in tranquility said:
donkey...i just going to ask some fun questions for a fellow "christian" it seems...lol

1. Do you honestly take the two Genesis creation stories literally?

2. Where does it say literally "Lucifer" in any of the creation stories?.. I dont recall that reference.


Something to keep in mind: In Hebrew text (the original text of the Old Testament), the word Adam trasnaltes to: the human race. And the word Eve translates to life, so if you keep that in mind when you read this text, it comes to: the "human race" picked the friut, and "life" sprung forth (eve eating the fruit).

I take all in the Bible literally, to not do so would be ridiculous (for christians anyways).

Lucifer was the serpent in the creation story. In Revelations, Lucifer is referred to as a dragon, which can also be a serpent.

According to Genesis, Eve came BEFORE the fruit was eaten.
 
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I take all in the Bible literally, to not do so would be ridiculous (for christians anyways).

To not do so would be ridiculos????
I dont take it literally and I try to follow Jesus, but according to you for christains, you have to take the whole bible literally.

Here is why I dont take the whole bible literally:

1. Becuase I beilve that God created evolution. I mean how can you deny evolution. Evolution happens right outside, look at the trees and how they grow, and how the animals adapt to human influence. That right there is evolution for ya. And Who is to say how long a "god day" is (in the 6 "god day" creation story...for all we know a god day could be trillions of years).

2. Because I dont beilve that woman was created from man, but both from God like in the the frist creation story of genesis.
Lucifer was the serpent in the creation story. In Revelations, Lucifer is referred to as a dragon, which can also be a serpent.

3. Because I beileve in Jesus Christ, and if you take the WHOLE bible literally, then that implies that you believe in the prophicies by the Old Testament prophets. And those prophiceis do not match "literally" with Jesus (thats why there still are Jews today)


Lucifer was the serpent in the creation story. In Revelations, Lucifer is referred to as a dragon, which can also be a serpent.

According to Genesis 3 (the first place where the serpent is refered to) it states:

Genesis 3
The Fall of Man
1 Now the serpent was more crafty than any of the wild animals the LORD God had made. He said to the woman, "Did God really say, 'You must not eat from any tree in the garden'?"
2 The woman said to the serpent, "We may eat fruit from the trees in the garden, 3 but God did say, 'You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die.' "

4 "You will not surely die," the serpent said to the woman. 5 "For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil." ETC.


It does not once say Lucifer, and you can't use a quote from much further in history to support that this paticular serpent is Luficer. If you are going to use quotes to support that the serpent is Lucifer, please to to be time relevant.


According to Genesis, Eve came BEFORE the fruit was eaten.

When I said "human race" that includes what your version of "Eve", since you beileve that Eve was an actual person. Then the way i interpert it, is after huamsn ate the fruit, LIFE (when i say life, i mean the life of knowledge....the power to know good from evil, right from wrong).

It might be hard to understand, but do you kind of understand what I am saying?
 
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But to continue the discussion. You claim to be a christian and you take the whole bible literally. Correct me if i am mistaken but did you not say you are a soldier? Here is why you are a non praciting christain:

1. According to you you take the whole bible literally, so that means to take "Do not kill" Literally.

21"You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, 'Do not murder,[a] (other common reference to the word kill) and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.' 22But I tell you that anyone who is angry with his brotherwill be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to his brother, 'Raca,[c]' is answerable to the Sanhedrin. But anyone who says, 'You fool!' will be in danger of the fire of hell.

thats what Jesus said about it. He said you cant be even mad at someone, or else you will have a chance of going to hell.

YET you support the military (who kill, hate, are angry, who DO NOT TREAT EACHOTHER THE WAY THEY WANT TO BE TREATED, and who DO NOT LOVE THER ENEMIES (these are all EXTREMELY enphisized by Our Lord Yesus Chritos).
 

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i dunno how people can interpret genesis literally, in today's world... and on top of that, a lot of those people tend to ridicule other creation stories for their far-fetched fantastical myths.
 

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Donkey1499 said:
I take all in the Bible literally, to not do so would be ridiculous (for christians anyways).

Lucifer was the serpent in the creation story. In Revelations, Lucifer is referred to as a dragon, which can also be a serpent.

According to Genesis, Eve came BEFORE the fruit was eaten.

Well, the statement, “I take all in the Bible literally”, can be construed in different ways.

  • It can be construed that an individual believes that the Bible is literal and inerrant in its teachings, historical accounts, and scientific accounts. Otherwise known history must be harmonized with scripture and science cannot be naturalistic.
  • It can be construed that an individual believes that the Bible is literal and inerrant in its teachings and historical accounts, but not in its scientific accounts. Otherwise, known history must be harmonized with scripture but science by definition is naturalistic.
  • It can be construed that an individual believes that the Bible is inerrant, but not necessarily a literal historical account in all aspects and is not to be construed as a scientific account.
So which general group would you belong in? Personally, I would argue that since known history contradicts some Old Testament accounts, and that since known science completely refutes the literal accounts of creation and stories like the story of Noah’s Ark, and since we know that there are passages in the modern translations of the Bible that were non existent in the earliest known manuscripts, that the Bible is largely inerrant in its teachings, with the exception of passages that man possibly inserted into scripture after the fact, and that the Bible is not a literal science book or literal historical account in all aspects.

In light of that viewpoint, it’s certainly reasonable to construe that God created the reality that we and the rest of our universe exist in and that the sum of that reality is beyond our comprehension. However, our reality is governed by natural laws like gravity, or in life sciences, evolution, and that if one is to accept that there is a God that created everything, then one would accept that those laws are of that God’s divine creation and design and are a necessary component of reality and the formation and existence of life. Therefore, it would be the natural conclusion that since those natural laws are a necessary component of existence in our reality, that our perceptions of good and evil only exist to the extent that we have the ability to comprehend them as our concepts of good and evil have nothing to do with the natural laws that define our universe and everything that exists within it (For example, a dog cannot commit an evil act because a dog cannot comprehend good or evil.) So in essence, evil is not a creation of God, but rather is an invention of man at the point in our evolutionary timeline when we developed the mental capacity to conceive of the notion.

At least that is my 2 cents worth.
 
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Donkey1499 said:
God told Adam to not eat from the tree of knowledge, because then Adam would be like God and know good and evil; whereas before, Adam was like a child, only knowing what God told him. But he ate the fruit and then became aware of things that he didn't need to know. And for that he was punished. This all right there in Genesis. in the first two chapters. God CAN do evil, but he CHOOSES not to do evil. The Ten Commandments also shows where God defined the difference between Good and Evil, thus showing once again that God knows evil (therefore he created it) ands lets us know good from evil, since we now know what evil is.
Before the fruit, Adam and Eve only did what they were told to do, and God didn't say to only listen to Him. So that loophole, Lucifer played on (at the time Lucifer was a high ranking angel of God) since he envied humans and was jealous and angry at God for giving control of the earth to humans; of which Lucifer thought humans to be inferior (Lucifer was both proud and arrogant). So Lucifer tempted Eve into eating the fruit, thus teeing off God. But something happened that Lucifer didn't forsee. Eve snitched (only because Adam snitched on her; it was the first blame game)...... and now I just lost my train of thought. Oh well.


The problem still stands. If God knows evil and as you say God was responsible for it, then God created something contrary to his nature in order to give free will.

Here is the paradox of that statement. If a Holy God creates something unholy then he ceases to be a Holy God, if he cannot create evil to begin with then there is something he cannot create making him incapable of being a God in the first place. To say that it was the fault of humans for choosing evil is like saying it was the fault of a child for grabbing a piece of candy that he was told not to take.

The fact of the matter is if you take this from the literal christian interpretation then God is clearly at fault for what happened to man. First of all God created evil according to what you say, second he created the conditions to allow this evil into his created, third he knew in advance that his creation would fall into this evil.

Another large problem for God is that if Lucifer became jealous and opposed God, it was God who allowed him to feel that way in the first place. In essence God gave Lucifer the ability to oppose him. So how can God be called holy when God not only created evil but created the conditions for evil to be imposed on virtually all of his creation.

1/3rd of all the angels opposed God according to the Bible, followed by the whole human race being tainted by what God originally caused in the first place(evil).

Where does God get the right to judge a creation that was subject to all of his creations including evil. A holy being of immense power could never create evil.

So if the Christian God even exists, which for the sake of the human race I really hope does not, then it is a God capable of a range of acts from good to evil. It would be much better to imagine that we are infact too intelligent for evolution and have some higher purpose but that none of the worlds monotheistic religions are correct in their assumptions of heaven and hell for not worshipping a God that not only created a race of beings in its image, but created the evil that would cause countless suffering for that race of beings with this God knowing full well before he ever created anything that all this suffering would take place.

I would just like to add that there is another major problem with Christianity, Judiasm, and Islam.

All 3 religions profess a permanent hell for non-believers. This means that a supposively just God is punishing its own creation INFINITELY for a FINITE crime.

The act of disobeying or opposing this God in a FINITE lifetime is resulting in an INFINITE punishment of hell. The very nature of a finite crime being infinitely punished is unjust making all 3 of these religions Gods evil.

Another problem with these religions is the loophole of getting away with sin.
Someone such as Ghandi who spend his entire life helping others could be sentenced to hell by any of these 3 religions simply for not worshipping the Gods within them while Hitler if he was truly sorry could go to heaven. Now think about the problem with that. The deeper you think the more you realize that the Gods of all these religions are prideful. They all say "worship me and truly believe in me and I will forgive you for whatever evil act you do". It shows that good is simply worshipping the God and truly admitting that this God is all powerful and the master of all while not admitting this results in hell regardless of how good of a person you are.

There are so many problems with the morality of these Gods that someone could write a book about it.
 
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when you say "according to the bible", always provide with verse and quote.

also, you obviously havent read what Jesus (christianity) says about other faiths. So here ya go:

Matthew 8:

The Faith of the Centurion
5When Jesus had entered Capernaum, a centurion came to him, asking for help. 6"Lord," he said, "my servant lies at home paralyzed and in terrible suffering."
7Jesus said to him, "I will go and heal him."

8The centurion replied, "Lord, I do not deserve to have you come under my roof. But just say the word, and my servant will be healed. 9For I myself am a man under authority, with soldiers under me. I tell this one, 'Go,' and he goes; and that one, 'Come,' and he comes. I say to my servant, 'Do this,' and he does it."

10When Jesus heard this, he was astonished and said to those following him, "I tell you the truth, I have not found anyone in Israel with such great faith. 11I say to you that many will come from the east and the west, and will take their places at the feast with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven. 12But the subjects of the kingdom will be thrown outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."

13Then Jesus said to the centurion, "Go! It will be done just as you believed it would." And his servant was healed at that very hour.



I understand you agurment, but please remeber that there is more to Jesus that is told.
 

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RealmOfThePureForms said:
Might as well start my forum career on the most controversial subject out there. :mrgreen:


I used to be a Christian. Now I realize that there are major problems with organized religious beliefs. Philosophy helped me realize this. But when I finally admitted it to myself my mind opened up and I began to persue the thoughts that I had previously blocked from my mind for fear of the true answers.

There is one major problem all the worlds major religions share in my humble opinion. That is good and evil. I will stick to the Christian God since I know Christianity better than I know any other religion, but it applies to Islam and Judiasm as well.

So my question for the Christians is first to open your mind and answer the following truthfully and second to refute it if you possibly can using LOGIC.

God is all good.
That means evil came from outside of God.
Good + Evil = Free Will
Without good you cannot define evil. Without evil you cannot define good.
If only good existed, then there would be no free will.

So if God is incapable of creating evil, and God needed evil to give human beings free will, then whatever created evil is what defined God as good and what gave humans free will.

So here are my questions to you.

Code:
1. How can you say God is responsible for something (free will) which he is incapable of creating himself without the help of some other being?
Code:

Is that to mean our ability to be "steered from inside " in our own direction, rather than being " pulled or pushed " in a direction dictated by an other .Is it about our ability to create also rather than just being created .Which makes us capable of sin { tresspasses against others }Which will make you say " does a victom of my actions make it a sin or criminal " ? Yes ,yes it does . A good example could be if I swerved a car off the road to hit a person compared to backing a car up and running over someone ,is the crime my driving or is the crime my tresspass against someone and if so why is one better than the other or is it ? TRUTH.....TRUTH...TRUTH was I being careful when backed up ? NO or I would not have run over someone . TRUTH in place of stupidity or religion in place of what you have ...do you have a name for it yet ?

I have ask this ,is God the problem or are you the problem ???

YOUR WELCOME.

:roll:
 
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Alex

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This reminds me of a thread I started here awhile ago. I'll repost the main part of it:

The Riddle Of Epicurus

"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?"
 
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iron butterfly said:
RealmOfThePureForms said:
Might as well start my forum career on the most controversial subject out there. :mrgreen:


I used to be a Christian. Now I realize that there are major problems with organized religious beliefs. Philosophy helped me realize this. But when I finally admitted it to myself my mind opened up and I began to persue the thoughts that I had previously blocked from my mind for fear of the true answers.

There is one major problem all the worlds major religions share in my humble opinion. That is good and evil. I will stick to the Christian God since I know Christianity better than I know any other religion, but it applies to Islam and Judiasm as well.

So my question for the Christians is first to open your mind and answer the following truthfully and second to refute it if you possibly can using LOGIC.

God is all good.
That means evil came from outside of God.
Good + Evil = Free Will
Without good you cannot define evil. Without evil you cannot define good.
If only good existed, then there would be no free will.

So if God is incapable of creating evil, and God needed evil to give human beings free will, then whatever created evil is what defined God as good and what gave humans free will.

So here are my questions to you.

Code:
1. How can you say God is responsible for something (free will) which he is incapable of creating himself without the help of some other being?
Code:

Is that to mean our ability to be "steered from inside " in our own direction, rather than being " pulled or pushed " in a direction dictated by an other .Is it about our ability to create also rather than just being created .Which makes us capable of sin { tresspasses against others }Which will make you say " does a victom of my actions make it a sin or criminal " ? Yes ,yes it does . A good example could be if I swerved a car off the road to hit a person compared to backing a car up and running over someone ,is the crime my driving or is the crime my tresspass against someone and if so why is one better than the other or is it ? TRUTH.....TRUTH...TRUTH was I being careful when backed up ? NO or I would not have run over someone . TRUTH in place of stupidity or religion in place of what you have ...do you have a name for it yet ?

I have ask this ,is God the problem or are you the problem ???

YOUR WELCOME.

:roll:


This is not my problem, this is a fundamental problem with monotheistic religions that believe in all powerful all good God in a world where evil also exists.

Alex makes my point perfect.

You totally missed the point iron butterfly. My arguement is not against the actions man chooses to make, it is against the very concept of free will. In order to have free will you must have the ability to choose to do both good and evil actions.

The whole free will arguement comes down to one single problem which no christian, muslim, or jew can answer.

If God created evil in order to give his creation free will, then he created something contrary to his holy nature making him no longer an all good God making him unworthy of worship.

OR

If God is incapable of creating evil because it is contrary to his nature then he cannot hold his creation accountable for using their free will because God would not have had control over all of the elements of that free will to begin with.
 

iron butterfly

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Yes ,I do understand the concept that words create a " mathematical equation " that can be used to estimate ,high ,low or no probability and so you are right ....'.IF" ...you are using the " right" words to come by your " mathematical equation " . Thats my point and I don't think you are ,is what I'm saying . Its such a LONG story ,I'm afraid I'll have to ask you to look again on your own if you really want to know the truth ..... PEACE !

:roll:
 
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