The prisons are overcrowded BECAUSE there are so many ridiculous laws...

[Aunt Spiker]

I hate referring to youtube videos for something that could easily be written up in a few pages. . .especially when that person mumbles and they use music. . . makes it very hard to hear.

None the less.

At the Bureau of Justice I found some interesting statistics.

Overall - crime rate in almost every area has dropped since 1960. Bureau of Justice Statistics (BJS) - Key Facts: Crime Type

Population rise. Bureau of Justice Statistics (BJS) - Total correctional population

Key facts (various statistics: imprisonment for death penalty, offenses committed by prisoners while *in* prison serving sentence (which usually translates to more prison time for them) and so forth: Bureau of Justice Statistics (BJS) - Key Facts: Corrections

Drug related:
Arrests for drug related issues have gone up (for adults) Bureau of Justice Statistics Drug Arrests by Age

Recidivism:

Recidivism is measured by criminal acts that resulted in the rearrest, reconviction, or return to prison with or without a new sentence during a three-year period following the prisoner's release.

Summary findings

* During 2007, a total of 1,180,469 persons on parole were at-risk of reincarceration. This includes persons under parole supervision on January 1 or those entering parole during the year. Of these parolees, about 16% were returned to incarceration in 2007.
* Among nearly 300,000 prisoners released in 15 states in 1994, 67.5% were rearrested within 3 years. A study of prisoners released in 1983 estimated 62.5%.
* Of the 272,111 persons released from prisons in 15 states in 1994, an estimated 67.5% were rearrested for a felony or serious misdemeanor within 3 years, 46.9% were reconvicted, and 25.4% resentenced to prison for a new crime.
* These offenders had accumulated 4.1 million arrest charges before their most recent imprisonment and another 744,000 charges within 3 years of release.
* Released prisoners with the highest rearrest rates were robbers (70.2%), burglars (74.0%), larcenists (74.6%), motor vehicle thieves (78.8%), those in prison for possessing or selling stolen property (77.4%), and those in prison for possessing, using, or selling illegal weapons (70.2%).
* Within 3 years, 2.5% of released rapists were arrested for another rape, and 1.2% of those who had served time for homicide were arrested for homicide.

Nationmaster has more interesting statistics:
Crime Rates on a huge variety of things in the USA: NationMaster - American Crime statistics

I could go on . .. it's just interesting stuff to ponder.

Anyway - overall I think that how we treat prisoners (prison climate, approach to correction) makes more of a difference. . .other countries have lowered their rates of Recidivism because of in-prison correction systems.

 

[Tashah]

Build more prisons if they're overcrowded. What's weird is that we had a new supermax prison in Illinois that was totally empty. The Feds recently purchased it to house the Gitmo detainees.

 

[UtahBill]

Obviously our prisons are not harsh enough if so many are repeat offenders.....
and this rationalizing of criminal activity because someone lost his job? Good luck getting that excuse to pass muster.
Even if a jury of their peers, all recently unemployed, would convict people who want to use such a lame excuse...

 

[Kal'Stang]

Sorry, I have to side with individual liberty. I strongly support individual property rights as well as severe punishments for any infringement on a person's right to life, liberty, or property. With that said, I cannot support a drug war that kills thousands of innocent people in order to prohibit individuals from consuming a substance that they should be allowed to consume. You might prefer that the FDA have jurisdiction over your body and the choices you make with your body, but I don't.

And just who is it that you think is the one to be killing all them innocent people?

 

[Kal'Stang]

I went to jail roughly 16 years ago. Guess what? I haven't committed anything more than a minor traffic violation since. If I can do it despite the hardships with getting decent paying jobs then by god so can everyone else. I understand the difficulties..it hasn't stopped me from trying to be an upstanding citizen.

 

[jamesrage]

AKA, Drugs and Prostitution......

How did I know...

Every single prison thread turns into OMFG DRUGS DRUGS!

I honestly think these prison threads are just a way to discuss legalization of marijuana without creating another 'obvious' legalization thread, since we've beat that dead horse and its really become an uninteresting debate.

You are a right about these prison threads turning into a oh what a horrible war on drugs. With these recreational drug legalization people the prison over crowding is never attributed to the fact we have the best and least corrupt law enforcement catching criminals and competent prosecutors or our prisons are overcrowded because the tax payers are too cheap to build more prisons.

 

[Mensch]

"This common kill-all draconion worldview is the reason why I'm not a conservative." - ElijahGalt

Sorry I can't relate to your point of view because:

1. I'm a man,

2. I understand there is a difference between right and wrong and when you do wrong you should be punished. That's how the world works.

Welcome to a man's world.

It's easy to do the right thing. It's difficult to define what is right and what is wrong (which is why we're all here today). Zealotry is the only reason why you 'know' what is right, and are willing to punish those who have done wrong.

How much punishment is enough, in your opinion? Do you admire the Saudi judicial system for their brutal treatment of evildoers?

And gender doesn't make a difference, unless you're chauvinist.

 

[Mensch]

And just who is it that you think is the one to be killing all them innocent people?

The same institution that always kills innocent people, legally. And yes, the drug war has cost the lives of at least a thousand people since its declaration in the 1970s-1980s. The illegal nature of the drugs kills innocent people. Simply look at how many people die from gang shootings (and many of those victims are not even directly related to the drug exchange). And where do the gangs get the large majority of their revenue?

I think I read, just recently, that the prime minister of Panama or Guatemala pleaded with the United States goverment to legalize drugs.

 

[Mensch]

I went to jail roughly 16 years ago. Guess what? I haven't committed anything more than a minor traffic violation since. If I can do it despite the hardships with getting decent paying jobs then by god so can everyone else. I understand the difficulties..it hasn't stopped me from trying to be an upstanding citizen.

Great for you. But regulating the decisions we make with our own bodies, and punishing people severly for trading in these illegal substances does not help anyone, not even the suburban population who are largely far removed from the drug trade (even though under the surface, you have just as many pot smokers and coke addicts in the suburbs).

We should stop pretending to "rehabilitate" the criminal population, because we do everything in our power to make sure these criminals always remain criminals, and always remain restricted to greater opportunity.

What is your opinion of the Three Strike Law?

 

[LaughAtTheWorld]

I believe that most federal prisons are a waste of money, effort, and time. Most federal prisoners (except spies, terrorists, infamous politicians, etc...) should be released with some fine, lots of community service, steep warnings about going to a state prison (which is a lot worse than federal ones), etc... Most of them are nonviolent people. I also believe that idiotic laws should be replaced, mostly homeless laws. They can't beg, camp under bridges, sleep on a public bench, can't store items in a public park, can't sit on a sidewalk, can't eat in public. They do these things to become self-sufficient, but the city in all its brilliance sees them committing a crime. The criminal justice system is already crowded, but the city decides it should be even more crowded.

Look at this statistics: It costs 25% more per day to keep a person in jail than to provide shelter, food, transportation, and counseling services, all of which has long term benefits. Also, the cost in keeping a person in jail doesn't include the costs of arrests, processing, and legal services to fight against the poor.

 

[snbl11225]

Most of that **** you talked about isn't making anyone do prison time either......

Being arrested and "going to prison" are two completely different things.
County Jail isn't prison, its county jail.

Yes, it's different. But you should realize that it to is over crowed and creating the same economic strain on local budgets. It houses a combination of offenses from those who are awaiting trial (many for serious offenses including murder, rape, etc.), and others doing time for misdemeanor offenses. The internal problems of violence, gangs, drugs, etc. that exist in prison are just as proportionally prevalent in jails. I spent almost 30 years in corrections and have worked in both environments and I know of what I speak.

 

[Aunt Spiker]

Yes, it's different. But you should realize that it to is over crowed and creating the same economic strain on local budgets. It houses a combination of offenses from those who are awaiting trial (many for serious offenses including murder, rape, etc.), and others doing time for misdemeanor offenses. The internal problems of violence, gangs, drugs, etc. that exist in prison are just as proportionally prevalent in jails. I spent almost 30 years in corrections and have worked in both environments and I know of what I speak.

Do you think that prison-overcrowding and funding/budget issues is new?

 

[snbl11225]

Do you think that prison-overcrowding and funding/budget issues is new?

Aunt Spike, I agree, but the question is whether prisons are the solution. If building prisons/jails were the answer we would have put a major dent in the problem years ago. Use the prisons for violent crimes. Secondly, a huge percentage of crimes are related to alcohol and drug issues. We need to get serious about dealing with those issues. Having worked in prisons, I can tell you that prisons only insure that people will have easier access to a higher quality of drugs with greater accountability of financial gain. If you want to diminish recidivism rates their are two significant areas to be addressed--education and addiction.

 

[Aunt Spiker]

Aunt Spike, I agree, but the question is whether prisons are the solution. If building prisons/jails were the answer we would have put a major dent in the problem years ago. Use the prisons for violent crimes. Secondly, a huge percentage of crimes are related to alcohol and drug issues. We need to get serious about dealing with those issues. Having worked in prisons, I can tell you that prisons only insure that people will have easier access to a higher quality of drugs with greater accountability of financial gain. If you want to diminish recidivism rates their are two significant areas to be addressed--education and addiction.

well - we don't agree on specifics but, generally, we agree that our system isn't really working and there are other functioning and more improved models to examine worldwide.

 

[Anarcho-fascist]

What are you talking about OP? Just build more prisons sheesh.

 

[Caine]

What are you talking about OP? Just build more prisons sheesh.

I always find it humorous how folks try to compare the US to other countries.
Like that means anything....

 

[Anarcho-fascist]

I always find it humorous how folks try to compare the US to other countries.
Like that means anything....

It means we lock up several times as many people per capita as other first world democracies. Saying things like e.g. "oh well do the crime do the crime" ignores facts like: In 1980 there were only 220 inmates per 100,000, our crime rate is higher than other first world democracies yet isn't as high proportionally as the incarceration rate, and you can get ridiculously long sentences for rather minor crimes.

 

[Aunt Spiker]

It means we lock up several times as many people per capita as other first world democracies. Saying things like e.g. "oh well do the crime do the crime" ignores facts like: In 1980 there were only 220 inmates per 100,000, our crime rate is higher than other first world democracies yet isn't as high proportionally as the incarceration rate, and you can get ridiculously long sentences for rather minor crimes.

I prefer it that way.
I like my schools to be safe for my kids to attend.
I don't want to have to deal with theives and drunks on an intricate level in my life.
I don't want to be paranoid.

I say, if anything, that other countries should STRIVE to be more like us - with LESS tolerance towards those that would disrupt the lives of others.

On top of that - the majority of people in the correctional system aren't there for menial crimes. They're there for heavier crimes that you, I - everyone - agrees they should be there for. Then they do *something else* and *get more time* - and a 13 month sentence quickly turns into 5 years or more.

I still support that we take different approaches to *how* we deal with them - we should *correct* not just *retain* . . repeat offender frequency should be reduced . . . and we should adopt more universal correctional regulations and laws - ALL other countries on that list have *uniform* codes and laws on their books that don't change province to province. . .we suffer from a serious differentiation state to state.

As well as how each state system *is* run - some in the US are more efficient and ideal than others.

 

[Caine]

It means we lock up several times as many people per capita as other first world democracies. Saying things like e.g. "oh well do the crime do the crime" ignores facts like: In 1980 there were only 220 inmates per 100,000, our crime rate is higher than other first world democracies yet isn't as high proportionally as the incarceration rate, and you can get ridiculously long sentences for rather minor crimes.

You know what happened between the 1980s and today?

Hip.... Hop..... Culture.......
"Thug Life"
Media Glorification of a Criminal Lifestyle.

Im not surprised.

 

[Mensch]

What are you talking about OP? Just build more prisons sheesh.

Or how about repealing more useless laws?

 

[Bodi]

What are you talking about OP? Just build more prisons sheesh.

If we put more people to death that number would go down drastically...
... and thus we would have a reduced prison population.

 

[Catz Part Deux]

Actually, Americans commit significantly more VIOLENT crimes per capita than do the residents of the European countries you've compared us to.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_the_United_States#Homicide

But, our crime rates have decreased since we started incarcerating more violent offenders, and for longer. I'm okay with that.

The most violent areas of the U.S. are places like Detroit, Memphis, Baltimore, and other urban areas. I wonder why crime rates are so much higher there than in London, for instance.

 

[Bodi]

Actually, Americans commit significantly more VIOLENT crimes per capita than do the residents of the European countries you've compared us to.

Crime in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

But, our crime rates have decreased since we started incarcerating more violent offenders, and for longer. I'm okay with that.

The most violent areas of the U.S. are places like Detroit, Memphis, Baltimore, and other urban areas. I wonder why crime rates are so much higher there than in London, for instance.

Ever watch Cops and then Night Patrol, or some other British "Cops" show? It is an amazing difference. The US Cops approach a car with either hand on gun or gun drawn. Screaming. Perps violent. Running. Helicopters chasing. Attack dogs freaking out.

You then go to the Britrish... cops walk up and call offender "mate". Calm, except for drunk fighting breakups, but then still no guns, not many arrests... certainly no freaking out dogs. No guns anywhere... Guy swears at cop and cop tells him to "calm down mate, or I'm gonna have to take you in" and the cop gets "I'm sorry mate, I'm just riled up at that wanker" or whatever...

Then you get to New Zealand Cops shows and cops and it is even more calm.

I swear... US cops have the hardest job and get absolutely nothing but **** for it too...