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The prisons are overcrowded BECAUSE there are so many ridiculous laws...



Do you ever intend to dazzle us with your brilliant commentary, an opinion, a setup to what we're watching...??

I mean, the guy who made the video did all the work, at least give him some introduction...

RE: Video - a lot of anecdotal stuff in his portrayal of parole violations.

And when he listed the 3-types of people he feels should be in jail, I'm not clear on who he thinks shouldn't be in jail. Non-violent offenders? Well, be more specific. Credit Card fraud is not a crime of violence. Personal drug use starts off as non-violent... Doesn't always stay that way.
 
No, its get rid of some laws that don't really need incarceration and or punishment. Either make them non custodial punishment, or abolish the laws entirely....

Tell me something. What's the difference between "abolish the laws entirely" and what I said?
 
The crime rate in the US has dropped quite a bit since 1990 and it started flatting out in 1980. In 1980 the incarceration rate started increasing. What happend? US started to take crime seriously.

It is much, much better to have more people in prison than having a high crime rate like South Africa. If people break laws, they should be behind bars, not out on the street even though that means less people in prison.

US could probably change the law somewhat and legalize for instance marihuana. But I don't think it will significantly decrease the number of prisoners and the reason why many European countries have very low incarceration rate is because criminals don't get caught. Sweden has a incarceration rate of 60 per 100K, against US who got 700. However, if you call police in Sweden because your house is getting robbed and you have evidence, the police won't come or help. If he get caught, he probably won't get punished. In best case scenario, he will be placed a couple of months in one of Swedens country resorts, (open prisons).

Not suprisingly, crime rate in Sweden is still increasing and except the murder rate, much higher than the US. Today the rape rate in Sweden is 63, US rate is 29. And Sweden has a resolve rate of 5%, while US rate is 25% That's 5 times more criminals behind bars, but is that bad for society?

Sorry, I have to side with individual liberty. I strongly support individual property rights as well as severe punishments for any infringement on a person's right to life, liberty, or property. With that said, I cannot support a drug war that kills thousands of innocent people in order to prohibit individuals from consuming a substance that they should be allowed to consume. You might prefer that the FDA have jurisdiction over your body and the choices you make with your body, but I don't.
 
I think we should make prisons labor camps, that way they can work and fund themselves. This gives the state more money to build more prisons, which solves the problem.

"Prison labor camps" can easily be made into concentration camps by the federal government. I'm not against using inmates to do manual labor in moderate-security prisons, but the system we have now is adequate. They have a choice to work (and hardly anyone gives up that choice in prison), but they are paid something like $1.25 an hour. And no, I don't believe the government should contract this prison work out to private businesses (for a variety of reasons).

I like the idea of having a self-sufficent prison system.
 
Do you ever intend to dazzle us with your brilliant commentary, an opinion, a setup to what we're watching...??

Sometimes. Like some of the other posters on DP, I am a political junkie and I'm here everyday. :) You'll read from me on more than occasion from now on, as I'm still a relatively newcommer. So, you'll get to enjoy all my commentary on a variety of subjects. But don't expect me to "dazzle" you everyday. Sometimes, I need to do other things in life in order to survive, and I can't make any money providing you with my political commentary. Sometimes, I'm in a hurry, or sometimes I'm just tired of typing. In those cases, you can expect an enticing title to the thread and (imho) an interesting video in the body of the thread. If you have a problem with that, see the complaint department:

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I mean, the guy who made the video did all the work, at least give him some introduction...

RE: Video - a lot of anecdotal stuff in his portrayal of parole violations.

My aunt is a federal probation officer and her anecdotal stories match up with this guy's "anecdotal stuff."

And when he listed the 3-types of people he feels should be in jail, I'm not clear on who he thinks shouldn't be in jail. Non-violent offenders? Well, be more specific. Credit Card fraud is not a crime of violence. Personal drug use starts off as non-violent... Doesn't always stay that way.

I'm sorry, I missed that point. In my worldview, a victimless act should never mean that someone goes to jail. Credit Card fraud is considered theft and theft is generally considered a violent (or coercive) act.

And when it is longer just about drug abuse, I will be on the side of the prosecuting attorney. But waging a war on drugs and prohibiting people from owning their own bodies is not, and should never be, a function of the federal government.
 
Sorry, I have to side with individual liberty. I strongly support individual property rights as well as severe punishments for any infringement on a person's right to life, liberty, or property. With that said, I cannot support a drug war that kills thousands of innocent people in order to prohibit individuals from consuming a substance that they should be allowed to consume. You might prefer that the FDA have jurisdiction over your body and the choices you make with your body, but I don't.

I've never understood the far-Libertarian view on narcotics. I understand the economics of prohibition, legalize something and the illegal trade will die off, but Libertarians always talk as if all drugs are the same as marijuana (non-addictive, mild hallucinogenic) But that is just not the case.

So tell me how you would purpose handling the leagization of:

Opiates, heroine, morphine:

Methamphetamine:

Cocaine in its various forms:

LSD, PCH, and other synthetic narcotics:

How would they be dispensed?

How would work safety be maintained?

How would employment laws be handled? Would cocaine users have the right to work, and therefore make drug-testing illegal?

Do you acknowledge that addicts will engage in crimes, robbery, theft to support a habit? Even if the price does down, they still have to pay for it, and if they use so often they can't work...etc.
 
I think you said before that you are a cop so I am thinking perhaps you are taking your own limited personal experience, or perhaps some individual case you hear about, and generalizing on the entire country, which is just plain stupid.
Ookay... Its much worse as far as what they allow kids to get away with in California. It takes multiple offenses, or an offense of GREAT danger (murder, assault with gun, etc.) to get someone into juvenile detention on first offense.



So they go to prison as a result of making moonshine but not for making moonshine? Gotcha.
Typical. This is why folks get the generalization that "users" of drugs are doing prison time. Because they fail to realize the charge that got them prison time was not USER levels of drugs at all. There is a SIGNIFICANT difference between being a 'user' and being involved in the trafficking and trade of such substances.




How do most of them get on probation and why is their probation revoked? From what I can find drug offenses are the biggest reason for getting on probation. If I look am I going to find it is also the biggest reason for people having their probation revoked?
They were provided the opportunity to not to to prison. Their refusal to obey judicial orders in compliance with their probation period is what got them in prison. Telling the courts, "HEY **** YOU" after they let you off with a steal is not the same as just being a user. Just being a user gets you probation.... refusal to comply with non custodial punishments get you prison time. Significant differences. But unfortunately the commoner fails to recognize and analyze this.



Does it really matter what you call the cage a person is locked in?
Yes. It does.




This one's a bit old and limited, but it gives you a good idea:

Who Goes to Prison for Drug Offenses?

Mind you most of the people in federal prison are there for more than possession. The people guilty of possession go mostly to state prison.

Funny, Considering a guy I recently got convicted of Possession with Intent to Sell/Deliver Cocaine only served about 20 days... and he is a repeat drug offender......

What I found interesting about your link was that they lumped The group as "most were street-level dealers selling small quantities, bit-players in the drug trade, addicts trying to support their habit... interesting enough.
However, lower in the article discussing this same matter... they stated "There are currently 22,386 men and women in New York prisons convicted of drug offenses 6,383 were first offenders and 15,922 were repeat offenders."
Repeat offenders need to be in prison.. they haven't learned **** through the "nice guy" way to handling business. Saying otherwise it to send a message that its "okay" to have a drug habit.
Then it also said, "One in four incarcerated drug offenders was convicted of simply possessing drugs. The rest were convicted of possession with intent to sell, attempted sale or sales. Whether guilty of possession or sales-related offenses, most of the incarcerated offenders were low-level offenders involved with small amounts of drugs." I would be willing to bet that alot of these one in four types are probation violators. I have no sympathy for someone who says "**** YOU" to the criminal justice system when we are trying to give them a slap on the wrist.... again.. its not "okay" nor should a drug problem be encouraged.

Then it follows it up with " New York has a much greater proportion (28.5%) of first time drug offenders with no prior convictions behind bars than the national average". Which tells me that, looking at the data here, the rest of the nation is not so bad if this is all New York has to offer.

I could go on with a bunch of other arguments about lower points in the article, but the article IS posted on a special interest group website.

Also, I do agree that Cocaine Possession and other minor possession of user level amounts of drug shouldn't be felonies.

However, your posting of the article has done wonders for showing the lack of misdemeanor drug possessors (Marijuana, which is a huge argument by stoners about pot possessors doing prison time) that are in prison. Did you see anything about misdemeanors in there? I didn't.
 
The prisons are overcrowded because the system is designed for you to fail on the outside and go back to prison. Granted people do change their lives around after prison but they are the exception not the rule.
Yes... the "don't blame the person who has control over whether or not to be a criminal, blame society" approach. How twinkle-toed and amusing.


Think of it this way. You can't find a job that pays good so you sell drugs or whatever other crime that pays good.
There IS a solution to that. Don't break the ****ing law and go to prison. :roll:
 
As Lao Tzu once said, "the more laws you create, the more criminals you create." It makes sense. Care to offer your solution to the overcrowded problem? Is it to just simply build more walls and more bars?

Tell me something. What's the difference between "abolish the laws entirely" and what I said?

You said the above quote.....
Care to show me the similarity between "abolish the laws entirely" and what you said???????
 
Who Goes to Prison for Drug Offenses?

Mind you most of the people in federal prison are there for more than possession. The people guilty of possession go mostly to state prison.

No, they don't. HRW considers distribution to be a "low level felony." I don't think you even understand your own source.

Here's a current, unbiased source. See if you can figure out why you're wrong.

http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/index.cfm?ty=tp&tid=132

Most drug possession charges are MISDEMEANORS. That means that those convicted of those crimes will generally get probation and/or community service hours. If they are a repeat offender, they may go through a drug court or do time in a local county jail.

The problem is that many times, drug possession is charged simultaneously with other, more serious crimes. Drug possession doesn't send you to prison, the prisons are already overcrowded as it is.

Hell, in my former county, even on possession with intent to distribute, they wouldn't hold you in the county pokey long enough to run your fingerprints through the national system.


How about drugs? Those arrested on drug-related charges represented 20.9% of those incarcerated at the state level, up from just 6.5% in 1980. More people are arrested for possession of drugs than for trafficking, but more are imprisoned for trafficking. A drug trafficker received an average sentence of 69 months in 2001, just under 6 years, and down from the 83 months (7 years) he served in 1996. A sentence for drug possession has increased from a 6 month to a 7 month sentence. But not all drugs are equal under the law. Legislation passed by Congress in 1986 takes a harsher approach to crack over powder cocaine. Simple possession for powder cocaine is a misdemeanor; simple possession for crack cocaine is a felony. The average sentence length for powder cocaine is 77 months, compared to 119.5 for crack cocaine. That's nearly as long as the current sentences for murder (203.4 months), kidnapping/hostage taking (181.5 months), robbery (93.5 months), and arson (82.1 months). In May 2001, legislation increased sentencing around the drug Ecstasy. Possession of 800 Ecstasy pills is now a 61 month sentence, up from 18 months before the law. An Ecstasy related crime now receives a 60 month sentence, up from 25 months. (Ecstasy and other club drugs are examined in Chapter 6).

Read more: Lesser Crimes Offenses - Sentencing: Drugs And Public Order Crimes - Months, Sentence, Sentences, Average, Cocaine, and Rights http://social.jrank.org/pages/1286/...-Drugs-Public-Order-Crimes.html#ixzz0zVfJCEDp

The charges listed above are for possession with intent to distribute. (see 800 ecstasy pills...who would ever have that kind of quanity, other than a dealer?).
 
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...Corporal Punishment... namely. Those ar all more effective than having to pay for people to sit in prison, around other innames, where they can learn to be better criminals at public expense.

.
For example, I support the Singapore Solution :mrgreen:



I.

hell yeah, public canings for all minor crimes.
 
I've never understood the far-Libertarian view on narcotics. I understand the economics of prohibition, legalize something and the illegal trade will die off, but Libertarians always talk as if all drugs are the same as marijuana (non-addictive, mild hallucinogenic) But that is just not the case.

So tell me how you would purpose handling the leagization of:

Opiates, heroine, morphine:

Methamphetamine:

Cocaine in its various forms:

LSD, PCH, and other synthetic narcotics:

How would they be dispensed?

What do you mean, how would they be dispensed? I don't propose that any sort of government body dispenses the drugs to its citizens. I believe it is not the role of the federal government to dictate what we choose to put in our own bodies. If you don't own your own body, you don't own anything. I have no thoughts or ideas on how the market should satisfy the wants of drug consumers, only that it is not a role of government to intervene, in order to save us from ourselves.

How would work safety be maintained?

What are you talking about? Alcohol is legal. If you get drunk before work and cause some accident, it's your fault. The same with any other substance.

How would employment laws be handled?

What do employment laws have to do with drug laws?

Would cocaine users have the right to work, and therefore make drug-testing illegal?

Everyone has a right to find work, and everyone has a right to private property. A business is a private property, and in that case the worker does not own his job. It is up to the employer whether or not he/she wishes to drug-test, just as it is up to the employer whether or not he/she wishes to check the credit report or a background check of the prospective employee. It is also the right of the prospective employee to find work elsewhere if a policy by a particular company is bothering him.

Do you acknowledge that addicts will engage in crimes, robbery, theft to support a habit? Even if the price does down, they still have to pay for it, and if they use so often they can't work...etc.

Hmmm, drugs are currently illegal and yet drug abuse remains the same, or increases. Crimes related to drugs continue to occur despite the illegal nature of drugs.

Yes, people will still do drugs and will still commit crimes. I have far more sympathy for the young innocent child that dies because they were a bystander to a drug gang fire fight as opposed to the individual who poisons himself, voluntarily, over a course of a lifetime.
 
What do you mean, how would they be dispensed? I don't propose that any sort of government body dispenses the drugs to its citizens. I believe it is not the role of the federal government to dictate what we choose to put in our own bodies. If you don't own your own body, you don't own anything. I have no thoughts or ideas on how the market should satisfy the wants of drug consumers, only that it is not a role of government to intervene, in order to save us from ourselves.

Thank you for being the first Libertarian to step up to the plate and answer the question, however...

Your answer ignores all public safety issues associated with use of various narcotics. Government has a compelling interest in protecting the health and safety of its citizenship as well as private property. All criminal codes are based on this idea of "compelling interest of the state"...

The state has a compelling interest in insuring that the roads are safe. Drunk driving is illegal.

Various types of narcotics can cause people to behave in an unsafe manner. That 'body is a temple' thing doesn't cut it. Your body may be yours, but if you wonder out into public while on PCP or if you fail to feed your children while on heroin--these are very legitimate issues the Libertarian across the board decriminalization of drugs doesn't address.



What are you talking about? Alcohol is legal. If you get drunk before work and cause some accident, it's your fault. The same with any other substance.

So, you purpose ending all laws concerning sale and possession and just focusing on use that negatively impacts society.

No more raids on private homes, but add an entirely new set of laws concerning public endangerment and improper use.

And the physical toll meth on heroin takes on users, that's a choice we're willing to live with as a society, no matter who gets hurt, children, families etc.



What do employment laws have to do with drug laws?

State employers are required to do mandatory drug testing in order to get Federal funds.

Many industries also require mandatory drug testing as part of their safety protocol - transportation, health services, trucking.

Everyone has a right to find work, and everyone has a right to private property. A business is a private property, and in that case the worker does not own his job. It is up to the employer whether or not he/she wishes to drug-test, just as it is up to the employer whether or not he/she wishes to check the credit report or a background check of the prospective employee. It is also the right of the prospective employee to find work elsewhere if a policy by a particular company is bothering him.

Good--so recreational drug users would not become a protected class.

But that would mean that most 'recreational users' would have very limited work options.



Hmmm, drugs are currently illegal and yet drug abuse remains the same, or increases. Crimes related to drugs continue to occur despite the illegal nature of drugs.

Yes, people will still do drugs and will still commit crimes. I have far more sympathy for the young innocent child that dies because they were a bystander to a drug gang fire fight as opposed to the individual who poisons himself, voluntarily, over a course of a lifetime.

Well, since you said the state would not handle or regulate the sale/dispensing of drugs, than the 'business' of drugs would still continue. So, children will still get killed in turf wars, probably more often.

Your solution would only lower the price of drugs and make them more available. You would still have all the crime, loss of work, cost to employers, plus the incidents of vehicle and industrial accidents would increate.

You're basically talking about creating a sub-economy, a Anarcho-capitalistic black market economy what would exist completely separate from ours.

However, the rest of society would still have to bear the cost of loss of life, damage to property, and an unpredictable, unreliable working class.

Am I missing something or are you ready to concede that it sounds good in the broad strokes, but the Libertarians really haven't thought it through.:peace
 
Typical. This is why folks get the generalization that "users" of drugs are doing prison time. Because they fail to realize the charge that got them prison time was not USER levels of drugs at all. There is a SIGNIFICANT difference between being a 'user' and being involved in the trafficking and trade of such substances.

There is no difference at all honestly. It is not even remotely unusual for anyone in possession of anything in even remotely significant quantities to provide others with some of what they have and many will ask for something in return. According to you someone who sells a joint to a friend is a horrible threat and that notion is completely divorced from reality.

They were provided the opportunity to not to to prison. Their refusal to obey judicial orders in compliance with their probation period is what got them in prison. Telling the courts, "HEY **** YOU" after they let you off with a steal is not the same as just being a user. Just being a user gets you probation.... refusal to comply with non custodial punishments get you prison time. Significant differences. But unfortunately the commoner fails to recognize and analyze this.

Not submitting to authority on an unjust law does not make them a threat. I suppose you would argue that Martin Luther King Junior was a bad man who deserved to be in prison.

Yes. It does.

I doubt you would be feeling that way if you were put in either. The only meaningful difference is all about poor management or security and that can be true with both. You can get killed or abused in county jail just like in prison. If that is the big difference you seem to think exists then you are wrong.

Funny, Considering a guy I recently got convicted of Possession with Intent to Sell/Deliver Cocaine only served about 20 days...

An outright fallacious argument. You seem to think every one of your personal experiences represents the entire national trend. It doesn't.

Repeat offenders need to be in prison.. they haven't learned **** through the "nice guy" way to handling business. Saying otherwise it to send a message that its "okay" to have a drug habit.

Being an alcoholic doesn't mean a person should go to prison. Having a drug habit doesn't mean that either.

Then it also said, "One in four incarcerated drug offenders was convicted of simply possessing drugs. The rest were convicted of possession with intent to sell, attempted sale or sales. Whether guilty of possession or sales-related offenses, most of the incarcerated offenders were low-level offenders involved with small amounts of drugs." I would be willing to bet that alot of these one in four types are probation violators. I have no sympathy for someone who says "**** YOU" to the criminal justice system when we are trying to give them a slap on the wrist.... again.. its not "okay" nor should a drug problem be encouraged.

In other words you are conceding that you were in fact wrong to claim people are not put in prison for drug possession. Thanks.

However, your posting of the article has done wonders for showing the lack of misdemeanor drug possessors (Marijuana, which is a huge argument by stoners about pot possessors doing prison time) that are in prison. Did you see anything about misdemeanors in there? I didn't.

Why should it matter if a person put in prison only for possession committed a misdemeanor or a felony? The sole act of possession hardly justifies prison time.

No, they don't.

Maybe you misunderstood, I was saying of those who to prison people guilty only of possession go to state prison.

Here's a current, unbiased source. See if you can figure out why you're wrong.

Bureau of Justice Statistics (BJS) - Prison inmate characteristics

How the hell is the Department of Justice an unbiased source? Also, I am not sure what you are trying to say with that.

The charges listed above are for possession with intent to distribute. (see 800 ecstasy pills...who would ever have that kind of quanity, other than a dealer?).

The claim that people are not sent to prison for possession is wrong and I have already demonstrated this to be the case. However, do not think that somehow means I only think people guilty of possession should be kept out of prison. I don't care if a person is selling drugs or using them the government shouldn't deprive them of any liberties because of it.
 
Thank you for being the first Libertarian to step up to the plate and answer the question, however...

Your answer ignores all public safety issues associated with use of various narcotics. Government has a compelling interest in protecting the health and safety of its citizenship as well as private property. All criminal codes are based on this idea of "compelling interest of the state"...

I would rather not sacrifice freedom for safety. The government only has a few, very basic functions. To protect citizens from foreign entities; to protect citizens from one another; and to maintain a very basic public works program. It is not a constitutional role of the federal government to protect us from our own harmful decisions. We may just have to agree to disagree on this one, because I will always argue that the government should never be given the authority to sacrifice our liberty for our protection. "Compelling interests of the state" can turn into something very monstrous, indeed.

AND AGAIN, the underlying logic that implies the government must protect our health and wellness would ultimately mean a prohibition of ALL drugs, alcohol, tobacco, firearms, motorcyles, fast cars, the ability to rock climb, bungee jump, skydive, ride ATVs or dirt bikes, hiking in the Grand Canyon, etc, etc, etc, etc. You can't honestly sit there and claim that narcotics should remain illegal while alcohol kills far more than all other drugs combined!

The state has a compelling interest in insuring that the roads are safe. Drunk driving is illegal.

The federal government has a role in ensuring the inter-state highway system and other massive transportation systems are well maintained. They are also responsible for the printing and engraving of money, the minting of coin, the establishment of a standardized system of weights and measures, and a few other basic functions. It is not the role of the federal government to lease out licenses to private entrepreneurs who wish to use these roads in order to make a living. It makes no sense to pay a man something like 100k a year to lease out a license to truckers. I say, let's legalize these cottage industries.

As for drunk driving, I have my own take on that (which you probably will not accept). I believe that drunk drivers should only be punished in the cases in which they injure or kill another and/or in the cases in which they damage property. In other words, I would adopt a more reactive policy measure as opposed to punishing, fining, and/or imprisoning someone for a victimless crime. I believe it also ridiculous that the police are allowed to set-up fake undercover prostitutes in order to lure men into a hotel room where they will be arrested and charged with soliciting. The same is true of setting up fake drug deals in order to be "proactive." They're not being proactive at all. They're punsihing people for a victimless crime.

Did you ever see the movie Minority Report with Tom Cruise? Who's to say that sort of reality would not materialize? We can't keep punishing people who have committed no real crime.

Various types of narcotics can cause people to behave in an unsafe manner. That 'body is a temple' thing doesn't cut it. Your body may be yours, but if you wonder out into public while on PCP or if you fail to feed your children while on heroin--these are very legitimate issues the Libertarian across the board decriminalization of drugs doesn't address.

And again, how does the illegal nature of PCP limit or prevent the harmful effects on society by people who are doped up on PCP? How does the illegal status prevent or limit crack mothers and meth fathers from taking care of their kids? It simply doesn't, and these unfortunate stories still occur.

You seem to think the government can legislate morality. Morality can and should never be imposed on society.

So, you purpose ending all laws concerning sale and possession and just focusing on use that negatively impacts society.

Why do you think I'm tip-toeing around the issue? I'm very openly in favor of legalization, across the board. Not just in simple drug use, but in nearly all matters of individual liberty.

No more raids on private homes, but add an entirely new set of laws concerning public endangerment and improper use.

I don't even know what you're talking about. Are you trying to meld my opinions and your opinions together as one?

And the physical toll meth on heroin takes on users, that's a choice we're willing to live with as a society, no matter who gets hurt, children, families etc.

Again, it already happens on a daily basis. And as stated above, alcohol takes a much larger toll. Would you like to go back to 1919?

State employers are required to do mandatory drug testing in order to get Federal funds.

Personally, I think it is crucial that certain jobs require drug testing, but ultimately I leave it up to the decision of the private business owner. Federal funding for such testing is nonsense.

Many industries also require mandatory drug testing as part of their safety protocol - transportation, health services, trucking.

Yes I know, but what is your point? What does this have to do with legalization?

Good--so recreational drug users would not become a protected class.

But that would mean that most 'recreational users' would have very limited work options.

I don't know where or how you draw your conclusions, but I think your understanding of the situation is quite inaccurate. "Recreational users" can easily have very limited work options, whether or not the substance is controlled. Many businesses abstain from hiring interviewees with obvious signs of recreational drug use (track marks on the arm, meth mouth, poor hygiene, etc). Their options are already limited because of their decision to use, not because of any legality issue. In fact, my proposal might actually lead to more jobs for users. For starters, they won't have a criminal record because it is legal. Second of all, as a distinct possibility, less businesses will drug-test because there would be no federal funding available (and this policy of distributing largesse to businesses in order to promote greater testing ultimately means businesses that have no significant reason to test will start to test in order to receive the funding).

Well, since you said the state would not handle or regulate the sale/dispensing of drugs, than the 'business' of drugs would still continue. So, children will still get killed in turf wars, probably more often.

This is absolute nonsense! Are children killed in turf wars after we legalized alcohol? Legalization would mean an end to the black market.

Your solution would only lower the price of drugs and make them more available. You would still have all the crime, loss of work, cost to employers, plus the incidents of vehicle and industrial accidents would increate.

There's no evidence of that, but I won't argue it. Again, my mind is set on allowing individuals to own their own bodies. If that means an end to the drug wars and to the gangs that live on the profit of these black markets, I say good riddance!

You're basically talking about creating a sub-economy, a Anarcho-capitalistic black market economy what would exist completely separate from ours.

Where do you come up with this? The black market is the sub-economy. A black market exists only because a product is illegal and/or taxed to an outrageous level. Legalization would mean an end to this market, the drug war, and it would serve a crushing blow to the various gangs that rely almost exclusively on the illegal drug trade. If that means an increase in the overall number of users, I'd say that's an exchange I'm willing to live with.

However, the rest of society would still have to bear the cost of loss of life, damage to property, and an unpredictable, unreliable working class.

They already are, to an extroadinary degree! Not only does the drug laws do little to hamper the overall addiction rates across the country, but it also has devastating consequences that are felt throughout all segments of society, and beyond.

Am I missing something or are you ready to concede that it sounds good in the broad strokes, but the Libertarians really haven't thought it through.:peace

Judging from this poorly written excuse for a thorough analysis, I'd say you really need to examine the issue more carefully.
 
You said the above quote.....
Care to show me the similarity between "abolish the laws entirely" and what you said???????

Actually, I quoted Lao Tzu, so it wasn't exactly something I said. However, I still contend that they are nearly identical Lao Tzu once said that the more laws you create, the more criminals you create. And I agree. You said we should abolish the laws entirely, in some cases, and I agreed with this sentiment, claiming it was identical to the sentiment made earlier (and the point of this entire thread). We want to reduce the number of criminals, don't we? And what better way to do it then to abolish certain laws entirely?
 
The claim that people are not sent to prison for possession is wrong and I have already demonstrated this to be the case.

I provided you with evidence that people are only rarely sent to prison for possession, and then, only in cases where they possessed large enough quantities to be charged with possessin with intent. Prisons are not overcrowded because John Jackson has a joint in his car. I know that NORML wants you to believe that, but the facts don't support that.

However, do not think that somehow means I only think people guilty of possession should be kept out of prison. I don't care if a person is selling drugs or using them the government shouldn't deprive them of any liberties because of it.

Sounds like a personal problem.
 
I provided you with evidence that people are only rarely sent to prison for possession, and then, only in cases where they possessed large enough quantities to be charged with possessin with intent. Prisons are not overcrowded because John Jackson has a joint in his car. I know that NORML wants you to believe that, but the facts don't support that.

From what I understand most consider it possession with intent based on the amount and in the case of marijuana it need be only over an ounce. It is actually quite likely someone with more than an ounce only has it for personal use. This is without consideration of the possibility a person may have more than just he or she might use because said person would share it with friends free of charge.

Sounds like a personal problem.

People being deprived of their liberties is not a personal problem.
 
From what I understand most consider it possession with intent based on the amount and in the case of marijuana it need be only over an ounce. It is actually quite likely someone with more than an ounce only has it for personal use. This is without consideration of the possibility a person may have more than just he or she might use because said person would share it with friends free of charge.

People being deprived of their liberties is not a personal problem.

Who here feels sorry for the pot smokers?
 
Who here feels sorry for the pot smokers?

What do you mean? Are you saying we shouldn't care if people are thrown in prison just for getting high?

Did they know it was illegal???????
Did they know it was illegal before they first ever did it?????

Then no, I don't have a damn bit of sympathy for them.
 
1. Tell all of the bedwetters to shut the hell up.

2. Stop waiting 20 years to execute somebody. If you're found guilty of a capital crime by a jury of your peers then you shouldn't have time for a last meal.

3. Fewer prisoners will mean more room.

4. Problem solved.
 
1. Tell all of the bedwetters to shut the hell up.

2. Stop waiting 20 years to execute somebody. If you're found guilty of a capital crime by a jury of your peers then you shouldn't have time for a last meal.

3. Fewer prisoners will mean more room.

4. Problem solved.

This common kill-all draconion worldview is the reason why I'm not a conservative.
 
"This common kill-all draconion worldview is the reason why I'm not a conservative." - ElijahGalt

Sorry I can't relate to your point of view because:

1. I'm a man,

2. I understand there is a difference between right and wrong and when you do wrong you should be punished. That's how the world works.

Welcome to a man's world.

 
1. I'm a man,

2. I understand there is a difference between right and wrong

Feel free to make any outlandish claim you want, B, but try not to get too disappointed if people disbelieve your assertions based on their casual observations.
 
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