• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every persons position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

The prisons are overcrowded BECAUSE there are so many ridiculous laws...

digsbe

Truth will set you free
Moderator
DP Veteran
Joined
May 13, 2009
Messages
20,222
Reaction score
14,219
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Other
Jails are too crowded because people brake laws, not because there are too many of them. How many guys in the prison didn't know what they did to get in there was illegal?
 

Technocratic

Active member
Joined
Sep 7, 2010
Messages
359
Reaction score
103
Location
Soviet Technate
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Conservative
Well, one problem is that plenty of those people shouldn't be in prison because what they are in there for shouldn't be illegal, anyway. That, and puttiing people in prison for minor crimes is counter productive.
 

Caine

DP Veteran
Joined
Sep 28, 2005
Messages
23,344
Reaction score
7,210
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
Well, one problem is that plenty of those people shouldn't be in prison because what they are in there for shouldn't be illegal, anyway. That, and puttiing people in prison for minor crimes is counter productive.
So, how should we actually enforce punishments for these 'minor' crimes then?

Those in prison for 'minor crimes' are there for those 'minor crimes' because they didn't have the god damned decency to abide by the terms of their probation, which is essentially their non-custodial punishment for said crime.

If you beat the **** out of your wife, and you get probation, and a part of that probation is to not go near the residence of the now ex- wife or communicate with her, and you do it. Then what the **** should the courts do? Shake a finger at someone? Or lock them up?
 

Technocratic

Active member
Joined
Sep 7, 2010
Messages
359
Reaction score
103
Location
Soviet Technate
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Conservative
So, how should we actually enforce punishments for these 'minor' crimes then?
Fines, Corporal Punishment, Community Service, namely. Those ar all more effective than having to pay for people to sit in prison, around other innames, where they can learn to be better criminals at public expense.

Many other countries have much lower incarceration, namely due to less ridiculous laws and much more effective non-prison punishments.

For example, I support the Singapore Solution :mrgreen:

If you beat the **** out of your wife, and you get probation, and a part of that probation is to not go near the residence of the now ex- wife or communicate with her, and you do it. Then what the **** should the courts do? Shake a finger at someone? Or lock them up?
I really wouldn't onsider spousal abuse and beatings to be a minor crime, would you? I am talking about crimes wherein the perps don't actually pose a threat to the life or body of anyone.
 

Caine

DP Veteran
Joined
Sep 28, 2005
Messages
23,344
Reaction score
7,210
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
Fines, Corporal Punishment, Community Service, namely. Those ar all more effective than having to pay for people to sit in prison, around other innames, where they can learn to be better criminals at public expense.

Many other countries have much lower incarceration, namely due to less ridiculous laws and much more effective non-prison punishments.

For example, I support the Singapore Solution :mrgreen:
When we start beating people, then there will be an outcry about that.

You know damn well that would never fly in our "touchy-feely" society we've created.




I really wouldn't onsider spousal abuse and beatings to be a minor crime, would you?
Its a misdemeanor, which is a crime that results in less than one year maximum punishment incarcerated.
I am talking about crimes wherein the perps don't actually pose a threat to the life or body of anyone.
AKA, Drugs and Prostitution......

How did I know...

Every single prison thread turns into OMFG DRUGS DRUGS!

I honestly think these prison threads are just a way to discuss legalization of marijuana without creating another 'obvious' legalization thread, since we've beat that dead horse and its really become an uninteresting debate.
 

Technocratic

Active member
Joined
Sep 7, 2010
Messages
359
Reaction score
103
Location
Soviet Technate
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Conservative
When we start beating people, then there will be an outcry about that.

You know damn well that would never fly in our "touchy-feely" society we've created.
How touchy feely is it to put people in prisons?

People probably wouldn't like it, but it's a better alternative to cane people for the low level crimes.

AKA, Drugs and Prostitution......

How did I know...

Every single prison thread turns into OMFG DRUGS DRUGS!

I honestly think these prison threads are just a way to discuss legalization of marijuana without creating another 'obvious' legalization thread, since we've beat that dead horse and its really become an uninteresting debate.


Well, I didn't create the thread ;)
 

Demon of Light

Bohemian Revolutionary
DP Veteran
Joined
May 7, 2010
Messages
5,095
Reaction score
1,544
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
AKA, Drugs and Prostitution......
Don't forget gambling, simulated child pornography, underage sexting, making moonshine, and a long list of regulatory violations. If we limited crimes only to those things that actually hurt people who do not choose to be at risk of harm then we would find prison getting a lot more spacious.
 

Caine

DP Veteran
Joined
Sep 28, 2005
Messages
23,344
Reaction score
7,210
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
Don't forget gambling, simulated child pornography, underage sexting, making moonshine, and a long list of regulatory violations. If we limited crimes only to those things that actually hurt people who do not choose to be at risk of harm then we would find prison getting a lot more spacious.
Most of that **** you talked about isn't making anyone do prison time either......

Being arrested and "going to prison" are two completely different things.
County Jail isn't prison, its county jail.

And, if people would just ****ing abide by their god damned probation conditions, many wouldn't go to prison.
 

Mensch

Mr. Professional
DP Veteran
Joined
Jul 12, 2010
Messages
3,715
Reaction score
751
Location
Northern Virginia
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
Jails are too crowded because people brake laws, not because there are too many of them. How many guys in the prison didn't know what they did to get in there was illegal?
As Lao Tzu once said, "the more laws you create, the more criminals you create." It makes sense. Care to offer your solution to the overcrowded problem? Is it to just simply build more walls and more bars?
 

Caine

DP Veteran
Joined
Sep 28, 2005
Messages
23,344
Reaction score
7,210
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
You are simply wrong, my friend.
Underage sexting (because underage don't go to prison).......
Making Moonshine. Because its not the act of making a single bottle of moonshine, its making and selling mass quantities of moonshine... they get you on the liquor tax violations.
"Other "regulatory" "... if you can't even define it, it probably isn't punishable by longer than one year incarceration, which means no prison.
 

Caine

DP Veteran
Joined
Sep 28, 2005
Messages
23,344
Reaction score
7,210
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
As Lao Tzu once said, "the more laws you create, the more criminals you create." It makes sense. Care to offer your solution to the overcrowded problem? Is it to just simply build more walls and more bars?
No, its get rid of some laws that don't really need incarceration and or punishment. Either make them non custodial punishment, or abolish the laws entirely....

By doing so, we free up enough funds to take even first time felony offenders who need to serve time and put them in the prisons. Thereby maybe effecting a corrective approach to the rest of their lives that they just don't seem to get when they keep getting probation on top of probation on top of probation.
 

Camlon

DP Veteran
Joined
Jul 3, 2009
Messages
2,854
Reaction score
567
Location
Oslo, Norway
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Slightly Conservative
The crime rate in the US has dropped quite a bit since 1990 and it started flatting out in 1980. In 1980 the incarceration rate started increasing. What happend? US started to take crime seriously.

It is much, much better to have more people in prison than having a high crime rate like South Africa. If people break laws, they should be behind bars, not out on the street even though that means less people in prison.

US could probably change the law somewhat and legalize for instance marihuana. But I don't think it will significantly decrease the number of prisoners and the reason why many European countries have very low incarceration rate is because criminals don't get caught. Sweden has a incarceration rate of 60 per 100K, against US who got 700. However, if you call police in Sweden because your house is getting robbed and you have evidence, the police won't come or help. If he get caught, he probably won't get punished. In best case scenario, he will be placed a couple of months in one of Swedens country resorts, (open prisons).

Not suprisingly, crime rate in Sweden is still increasing and except the murder rate, much higher than the US. Today the rape rate in Sweden is 63, US rate is 29. And Sweden has a resolve rate of 5%, while US rate is 25% That's 5 times more criminals behind bars, but is that bad for society?
 

digsbe

Truth will set you free
Moderator
DP Veteran
Joined
May 13, 2009
Messages
20,222
Reaction score
14,219
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Other
As Lao Tzu once said, "the more laws you create, the more criminals you create." It makes sense. Care to offer your solution to the overcrowded problem? Is it to just simply build more walls and more bars?
I think we should make prisons labor camps, that way they can work and fund themselves. This gives the state more money to build more prisons, which solves the problem.
 

Catz Part Deux

DP Veteran
Joined
May 19, 2009
Messages
28,728
Reaction score
6,742
Location
Redneck Riviera
Gender
Female
Political Leaning
Moderate
Fines, Corporal Punishment, Community Service, namely. Those ar all more effective than having to pay for people to sit in prison, around other innames, where they can learn to be better criminals at public expense.
Technocratic, you have zero idea who is incarcerated in state & federal prisons. People aren't there for possession of marijuana. Why don't you do a little research on the BJA website and see if you can figure out, for yourself, why your solution is stupid.

By the way, did you know that our murder rate is 10x that of most other civilized countries? The same holds true with other serious violent crimes.
 

Dezaad

DP Veteran
Joined
Feb 7, 2005
Messages
5,058
Reaction score
2,424
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Very Liberal
I think we should make prisons labor camps, that way they can work and fund themselves. This gives the state more money to build more prisons, which solves the problem.
Who would they do work for? Anyone they do labor for then becomes interested in assuring that there are enough prisoners to supply their labor needs. Do we really want to create additional business or gov't interests that need for people to be incarcerated for their ongoing prosperity?
 

Technocratic

Active member
Joined
Sep 7, 2010
Messages
359
Reaction score
103
Location
Soviet Technate
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Conservative
Technocratic, you have zero idea who is incarcerated in state & federal prisons. People aren't there for possession of marijuana. Why don't you do a little research on the BJA website and see if you can figure out, for yourself, why your solution is stupid.

By the way, did you know that our murder rate is 10x that of most other civilized countries? The same holds true with other serious violent crimes.
Actually, people who use drugs are placed into prisons.

You're misinformed. We place a lot of people into prisons who don't belong there, and often, with harder criminals.
 

Demon of Light

Bohemian Revolutionary
DP Veteran
Joined
May 7, 2010
Messages
5,095
Reaction score
1,544
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
Underage sexting (because underage don't go to prison).......
They go to kiddie prison a.k.a. juvenile detention.

Making Moonshine. Because its not the act of making a single bottle of moonshine, its making and selling mass quantities of moonshine... they get you on the liquor tax violations.
So wait, you agree people do go to prison for making moonshine?

"Other "regulatory" "... if you can't even define it, it probably isn't punishable by longer than one year incarceration, which means no prison.
I didn't define it because there are far too many to list. Also how does "one year incarceration" translate into "no prison" for you?
 

Catz Part Deux

DP Veteran
Joined
May 19, 2009
Messages
28,728
Reaction score
6,742
Location
Redneck Riviera
Gender
Female
Political Leaning
Moderate
Actually, people who use drugs are placed into prisons.

You're misinformed. We place a lot of people into prisons who don't belong there, and often, with harder criminals.
Prove it. What percentage of prison inmates are there for simple possession?
 

Caine

DP Veteran
Joined
Sep 28, 2005
Messages
23,344
Reaction score
7,210
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
They go to kiddie prison a.k.a. juvenile detention.
:rofl
How much do you actually know about the juvenile justice system????
From this statement... very, VERY ****ing little.

Can't even get kids put in juvenile detention for breaking into cars and stealing them at 14 years old, how the **** do you think they are going to do it for sexting?
Get real.




So wait, you agree people do go to prison for making moonshine?
No.. not for "making" moonshine. They go to prison for making mass quantities and then SELLING said moonshine, and avoiding the TAX to be paid on said moonshine.



I didn't define it because there are far too many to list. Also how does "one year incarceration" translate into "no prison" for you?
Misdemeanors are any crime that is punishable by less than one year in custody. These crimes are typically handled by local jails. Someone being sentenced to 30 days isn't going to a PRISON.
Also, many of the crimes that people do in which they eventually go to PRISON for, they were originally sentenced to some sort of probation, and because they couldn't abide by the ****ing terms and conditions of their probation like any normal human being with any value, they DESERVE to be in PRISON.

I think you are getting any punishment for which there could possibly be custodial sentencing, and actual PRISON mixed up.
 

Demon of Light

Bohemian Revolutionary
DP Veteran
Joined
May 7, 2010
Messages
5,095
Reaction score
1,544
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
:rofl
How much do you actually know about the juvenile justice system????
From this statement... very, VERY ****ing little.

Can't even get kids put in juvenile detention for breaking into cars and stealing them at 14 years old, how the **** do you think they are going to do it for sexting?
Get real.
I think you said before that you are a cop so I am thinking perhaps you are taking your own limited personal experience, or perhaps some individual case you hear about, and generalizing on the entire country, which is just plain stupid.

No.. not for "making" moonshine. They go to prison for making mass quantities and then SELLING said moonshine, and avoiding the TAX to be paid on said moonshine.
So they go to prison as a result of making moonshine but not for making moonshine? Gotcha.

Also, many of the crimes that people do in which they eventually go to PRISON for, they were originally sentenced to some sort of probation, and because they couldn't abide by the ****ing terms and conditions of their probation like any normal human being with any value, they DESERVE to be in PRISON.
How do most of them get on probation and why is their probation revoked? From what I can find drug offenses are the biggest reason for getting on probation. If I look am I going to find it is also the biggest reason for people having their probation revoked?

I think you are getting any punishment for which there could possibly be custodial sentencing, and actual PRISON mixed up.
Does it really matter what you call the cage a person is locked in?

Prove it. What percentage of prison inmates are there for simple possession?
This one's a bit old and limited, but it gives you a good idea:

Who Goes to Prison for Drug Offenses?

Mind you most of the people in federal prison are there for more than possession. The people guilty of possession go mostly to state prison.
 

Johnny

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 8, 2010
Messages
571
Reaction score
205
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Libertarian
The prisons are overcrowded because the system is designed for you to fail on the outside and go back to prison. Granted people do change their lives around after prison but they are the exception not the rule.

Think of it this way. You can't find a job that pays good so you sell drugs or whatever other crime that pays good. You get caught, get convicted and do you're time. You're released but now it's even harder to get a job with a criminal record. So you're in the sane position or worse than you were in the first place. So you're stuck slaving away for crap pay or you go back to crime.

But in the case of drugs they should be illegal anyway (at least not at the federal level) as we all learned with alcohol prohibition that prohibition makes more crime and makes the problem itself worse.
 
Top Bottom