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The Preamble

RealityNow

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In the case of the US Constitution, it is also the "Supreme Law of the Land" which government must abide at all times. I wouldn't expect a foreigner who has never read the document to comprehend, but you have the same attitude as Democrats. They don't give a shit about the Supreme Law of the Land either. As we see them deliberately violate the US Constitution on a regular basis.
Not only do you know your hyper partisan spin is objective based... you even have the audacity to print that crap. Its not unknown what behind your agenda.

Democrat Policies align extremely will with the Spirit, The Principles, The Values and The Function of the Constitution. I won't play into your spin cycle, but its best you invest to read and review the incessant oppositional position of Non Democrats, You willfully chose to ignore the Lying about Political Position such as what Lindsey Graham pushed, of "hold him to his word", and then supported violating exactly what he said. The Entire World watched an entire Republican Congress try and diminish and followed it up by Ignoring the Laws of the Land regarding Jan. 6th.

But, you know those things are True, but to put it bluntly to what you continue to write is very simple. In the partisan divide of Right Wing Republicanism which is comprised of mostly "white people", who can't digest the fact that they don't get to "control America as they did in the years and decades prior to 1964. They have been fighting against anything and everything and trying to "defeat and deny the principles and values of The Constitution, since they can no longer bastardize its words to back "White Nationalism and the White Supermacy Delusions of White Dominance.
Heck we saw it outright in Jan. 6, of "white people' pissed off and engaging seditious and subversive conduction followed by an insurrection against the U.S. Government in an attampt to enact a Coup D'etat in desperation of trying to keep a White Nationalist Divisive Bigot in office after he lost a free and fair election.

We who are aware, always knew White Nationalist would create and cause hell, when and as they see the continued downfall of White Nationalist dominance within America. That past of White Dominance will "never" return to America, and because of that fact. White Nationalist will try to rip the country apart if they can't dominate and control it. That has been the history of White Nationalism. Which is, attack, and try and destroy anything and everything they can't dominate.
Heck, from the days of slaughtering the Native America Indians out right to the Trail of Tears and the 100 yrs of Jim Crow follwing 100's of years of Slavery.

No other race and skin color people have evern do the type of damages to America that has been done by white skin people, and now they want to hide those truths and facts of history, while still amassing themselves under the Republican Banner, still trying to think their white skin grouping to try and cheat and bastardize future elections.
Your continued spin plays into promoting such an agenda with your type of narratives. ( Its not unknown what behind your agenda. )

The Preambe is "exactly as its words states' and your denialism means nothing, because you can't change a single word of it. Anyone who invest in learning and respecting The Preamble will not be misled by your attacks on the phrase "We The People"... Simply because deep within you can't digest to accept that it means "ALL OF US" and not just "white people'.

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The Preamble

We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.
 
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RealityNow

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__________________

Regardless of how much Right Wing Republican want to establish Trump as an Autocratic King... 'America's Republic Form of Government was chosen because "We DO NOT have a King". We have President. (Who is the Presiding Officer of The Executive Branch of The United States of America. )

and Article I, Section 1 is very clear, that Legislative Powers is vested in Congress, not the President.


Article I​

Section 1
All legislative Powers herein granted shall be vested in a Congress of the United States, which shall consist of a Senate and House of Representatives.
 

RealityNow

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Crap. The government violates the constitution with impunity. Somebody's interpretation of the constitution, anyway. You guys like to pretend that the constitution is somehow 'virgo intacta', never to be violated, but you accept violations without a squawk.
That's not true.. "Men as elected person" may make and have made efforts and acts to violate the Constitution, and many of such Men as elected person, have been caught and charged, and some have been jailed.
such Man, as an elected person, does not compose the entirity of what is the Government, which the Constitution's Articles Established.
There is nothing Perfect in This World, that is created by Man, its always a work in process and progress. Anyone expecting perfection, ignores that "man" is a flawed and fallable being, subjected to the vices and temptations within life, and such vices and temptation has led to the charge, prosecution and conviction, as well as the impeachment and removal of such men, by acts of forced resignation or removal from office.

No one can find any country on any Continent of this World, that has a "Perfect System of Governances", not because of the Documents of Government, but by the actions of Man/Woman, as an elected person who is an individual.

World Leaders who have been removed from Office.

________________________________

Anyone trying to pass a claim that "government are perfect"... only bring themselves to disrespect the same system that has provided the governance that makes a nation. It is not the "government that is of fault' but "elected person, as individual" that one should look at as the fault maker.
  • Man/woman, as elected person, who is an Individual, have a history of "Abusing Power"

People are much to blame in the abuses, because it people who should be more knowledgeable of whom they "elect"...

Ignorance and Uninformed Individuals, blame "Government", rather than blame the:
  • Man/Woman, as elected person, who is an Individual, who engage themselves in the act of "Abusing Power"
  • Groups of Man/Woman, as elected person, who is Each an Individual, who engage themselves "collectively" in the acts of "Abusing Power"
 
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bluesmoke

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You can try all you want to diminish, or ignore the phrase "We The People"... unto yourself, but you can't make it not exist in the Constitution. So... you may certainly enjoy your choice to try to diminish that phrase, because it changes nothing. Those words were there long before you came to life, and once life leaves you, those words will still be there.

It is becoming more and more True over the centuries and decades, because it is becoming "More Inclusive of All Multiracial, Multicultural Diversity of People who is, as individual person".

The People were, among others, the citizen neighbors that would select, by vote, the delegates who would ratify the Constitution to become a federal union of states. The very first action of representative democracy taken by what was being made the United States of America.
 

bluesmoke

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Again, nobody living today is morally bound by a 200+ year old document.



Might doesn't make right. It never has and it never will.

No one is morally bound to anything and can take any action they are able to as long as they understand they must be willing to face the consequences of their actions. You can exercise your individual might, but others will decide what is right, and the ultimate reference for what is right is the Constitution.
 

bluesmoke

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His name, as I mentioned in post #32, was Gouverneur Morris and he was the delegate from Pennsylvania at the Constitutional Convention in 1787. He was born in New York, but never elected Governor. He was also a Federalist, like Washington and Adams. It would appear that your grasp of the facts are tenuous at best. No wonder you imagine words that don't actually exist in the US Constitution.


So minor an error of mine doe not change the substance of the facts I've informed you of in our prior exchanges that you fail to wrap your mind around.

Morris represented PA from NY. That is fact.

It's easy for me to admit to a non-affective minor error. It's obviously difficult for you to admit to a major misunderstanding of the Preamble and Constitution, and the relationship btx the 2.
 

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Not only do you know your hyper partisan spin is objective based... you even have the audacity to print that crap. Its not unknown what behind your agenda.

Democrat Policies align extremely will with the Spirit, The Principles, The Values and The Function of the Constitution.
Do you actually believe this garbage that you spew? The Democratic Party has been willfully violating the "Spirit, The Principles, The Values and The Function of the Constitution" since their inception in 1828. Or do you think intentionally slaughtering innocent Americans fits in with the "Spirit, The Principles, The Values and The Function of the Constitution?" The Democratic Party has intentionally killed more Americans than all the foreign wars the US has ever fought - combined.

There has been no greater threat to the nation than the Democratic Party, and you want to pretend that they are somehow moral and law abiding when they slaughter innocent Americans and seek to violate the law at every opportunity? Boy, that takes self-delusion to a whole new level.

There is no lower form of life on this planet than leftist pieces of shit. They are mentally diseased sub-humans.
 

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So minor an error of mine doe not change the substance of the facts I've informed you of in our prior exchanges that you fail to wrap your mind around.
You mean the facts that you had absolutely no clue about, until I pointed it out? You have no substance, as I demonstrated. You don't even know your own history, as you plainly demonstrated.

Morris represented PA from NY. That is fact.

It's easy for me to admit to a non-affective minor error. It's obviously difficult for you to admit to a major misunderstanding of the Preamble and Constitution, and the relationship btx the 2.
You called the man Governor of a State where he never ran for office because you had absolutely no clue who he was. That is hardly a "minor error." That demonstrates a lack of education. Like your inability to grasp that the word "democracy" doesn't exist anywhere within the US Constitution. You are truly clueless.
 

RealityNow

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Do you actually believe this garbage that you spew? The Democratic Party has been willfully violating the "Spirit, The Principles, The Values and The Function of the Constitution" since their inception in 1828. Or do you think intentionally slaughtering innocent Americans fits in with the "Spirit, The Principles, The Values and The Function of the Constitution?" The Democratic Party has intentionally killed more Americans than all the foreign wars the US has ever fought - combined.

There has been no greater threat to the nation than the Democratic Party, and you want to pretend that they are somehow moral and law abiding when they slaughter innocent Americans and seek to violate the law at every opportunity? Boy, that takes self-delusion to a whole new level.

There is no lower form of life on this planet than leftist pieces of shit. They are mentally diseased sub-humans.
Thank you for "openly exposing your agenda" !!!!

Now, the rest of us can get back to discussing the beauty and progressive graces of the principles and values of "The Preamble" which is supported by "We The People".

_______________________​

We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.
 
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Glitch

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Thank you for "openly exposing your agenda" !!!!

Now, the rest of us can get back to discussing the beauty and progressive graces of the principles and values of "The Preamble" which is supported by "We The People".
Once again you are demonstrating you vast ignorance. There is nothing "progressive," or of any value, in the preamble of the US Constitution with which "We The People" had no involvement. But do continue with your mentally unbalanced rant, it is a fine demonstration of the massive ignorance of the left. Attaching significance to something that has no significance is because you clearly have no clue about reality, contrary to your nick. Now that is irony.
 

RealityNow

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Once again you are demonstrating you vast ignorance. There is nothing "progressive," or of any value, in the preamble of the US Constitution with which "We The People" had no involvement. But do continue with your mentally unbalanced rant, it is a fine demonstration of the massive ignorance of the left. Attaching significance to something that has no significance is because you clearly have no clue about reality, contrary to your nick. Now that is irony.
Hope you feel better about yourself.... Good bye to you
 

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You mean the facts that you had absolutely no clue about, until I pointed it out? You have no substance, as I demonstrated. You don't even know your own history, as you plainly demonstrated.


You called the man Governor of a State where he never ran for office because you had absolutely no clue who he was. That is hardly a "minor error." That demonstrates a lack of education. Like your inability to grasp that the word "democracy" doesn't exist anywhere within the US Constitution. You are truly clueless.

The only error I made, to which I admitted, did not change the substance of our debate nor the facts that supported what I said and refuted your claims.

"...where he never ran for office..." is another false claim of yours, though does not affect the substance of the debate. Morris became a US Senator from the state of NY.

There are many words/terms not in the Constitution that exist in the meaning of the Constitution. Representative democracy, not pure democracy, is supported by the Constitution. The Constitution allows representative democracy to exist. You, apparently, are against American democracy. You, apparently, are saying that because it is not literally stated in the Constitution, it is not allowed. I asked you questions about that before, but you wouldn't answer. Fair debate questions. But you don't debate fairly. You can only hurl insult and refuse the existence of the obvious. If you can't debate honestly nor acknowledge fact, see you on another thread.
 

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Once again you are demonstrating you vast ignorance. There is nothing "progressive," or of any value, in the preamble of the US Constitution with which "We The People" had no involvement. But do continue with your mentally unbalanced rant, it is a fine demonstration of the massive ignorance of the left. Attaching significance to something that has no significance is because you clearly have no clue about reality, contrary to your nick. Now that is irony.

Properly speaking, knowledge, or the amount of it, is what could be described as "vast", not a lack of it.
 

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And the nonsense that this means (from your table) "to make everything in our country as perfect as possible" is sheer, unadulterated BS.
Perhaps worded a little strongly, but essentially correct. The "more perfect union" means "more perfect than under the Articles of Confederation."

"The preamble is not technically a legal document, so the ideas contained within it are not enforceable in a court of law. But, it serves as a reminder of why the Constitution was written - to create laws around justice, defense, liberty, and prosperity for the United States."

True, the Preamble is not a legally binding statement. What it is, IMHO, is the finest short statement of the fundamental purposes of government in history.

The preamble was written by Gouverneur Morris at the Constitutional Convention in 1787. He was the one who included the phrase "We The People" to a document that was written entirely in secret with absolutely no input by the people it was written to include. Which makes the phrase "We The People" more propaganda than actual fact.
Nope, not even. True, the Constitution was written entirely in secret, and with good reason. But it was ratified in the full light of day, with often long and rancorous public debate. And while it required nine of the thirteen states to ratify it for it to go into effect, in each state the question was decided by a simple majority vote of the delegates elected to the ratification conventions.

You mean like your propaganda "There is also no mention of democracy anywhere within the US Constitution"? The entire document, the Constitution, is the very construct of a representative democracy.
No, it is not. In a democracy, whatever the majority wants it gets--the less that is true, the less of a democracy that system of government is. What the Constitution creates is a constitutional federal democratic republic ("republic" defined as any system that mixes the three "pure" forms of government--monarchical, aristocratic, and democratic--into a Rube Goldberg device).
 

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Nope, not even. True, the Constitution was written entirely in secret, and with good reason. But it was ratified in the full light of day, with often long and rancorous public debate. And while it required nine of the thirteen states to ratify it for it to go into effect, in each state the question was decided by a simple majority vote of the delegates elected to the ratification conventions.

Not exactly democratic, huh ?
 

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Not exactly democratic, huh ?
As democratic as possible if they wanted to accomplish anything. Imagine if the firestorm of competing editorials that occurred during the ratification debates had happened during the Convention? It would never have worked, the pressure on state governments to yank their delegates and shut it down would have been unendurable.
 

Rich2018

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As democratic as possible if they wanted to accomplish anything. Imagine if the firestorm of competing editorials that occurred during the ratification debates had happened during the Convention? It would never have worked, the pressure on state governments to yank their delegates and shut it down would have been unendurable.

So the only way to "accomplish something" was to do it in secret and have a a few white, middle aged men speak for all of their respective states ?

So much for "We The People"

As if the "people" had anything to do with it.
 

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The Union is a federalist structure of governance. States' rights folk can't process that fact. The type of a states' rights that I understand they want is impracticable. Like the CSA was.

A note: That the Preamble comes before the Constitution doesn't mean it was written first. In fact, it was written after the great majority of the Constitution was written. The Preamble could not have been written without knowing the content of the Constitution to write what is in the Preamble.
 

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The Union is a federalist structure of governance. States' rights folk can't process that fact. The type of a states' rights that I understand they want is impracticable. Like the CSA was.
You're right, the Union is supposed to be a federalist structure--which, after the Founders got done redefining the term, means a form of government where you have a federal government with enumerated powers but lacking police power (except over its own directly-governed territory, such as Washington, D.C.). In this the states' rights folks are correct. Where many of them are--and the CSA was--wrong is asserting that among the powers reserved to the states is unilateral secession.
 

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You're right, the Union is supposed to be a federalist structure--which, after the Founders got done redefining the term, means a form of government where you have a federal government with enumerated powers but lacking police power (except over its own directly-governed territory, such as Washington, D.C.). In this the states' rights folks are correct. Where many of them are--and the CSA was--wrong is asserting that among the powers reserved to the states is unilateral secession.


Supposed to be? The US is a federal republic.

There are many fed departments with their own law enforcement (police). About 2 dozen.
 

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Supposed to be? The US is a federal republic.
Supposed to be. Here is the federal republic originally envisioned by the Federalists that supported the ratification of the Constitution, from The Federalist No. 45:

"The Constitution delegates a few, defined powers to the federal government. The remaining State powers are numerous and indefinite.​
"Federal powers will be principally exercised on external objects, like war, peace, negotiation, and foreign commerce. Taxation will be the primary federal power over foreign commerce.​
"The State powers extend to everything that, in the ordinary course of affairs, concerns the lives, liberties, property of the people, internal order, improvement, and the prosperity of the State.​
"The federal government’s operations will be most extensive and important in times of war and danger. Those of the State governments, in times of peace and security.​
"Since times of war will probably be small compared to peacetime, the State governments will enjoy another advantage over the federal government. Indeed, the more adequate the federal national defense, the less frequent the danger that might favor its ascendancy over the governments of the States."​

What we have now bears very little resemblance to that original vision, and the mere possibility that the Supreme Court might be guided by it in the case of something like, say, abortion is enough to have Liberals frothing at the mouth.
 

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That isn't propaganda. That is fact. Learn the difference, if you are able.


The US Constitution supports a republican form of government, it does not support democracy and never has. Try reading the damn document and get a clue.

The republican form of govt in the Constitution is that of a representative democracy. That is fact. You use the lack of stating “democracy” in the Constitution as meaning the US is not a democracy when, as I just pointed out, it is a representative democracy. Definition of Republic: “a government in which supreme power resides in a body of citizens entitled to vote and is exercised by elected officers and representatives responsible to them and governing according to law”

Republic Definition & Meaning - Merriam-Webster

What part of the definition of a republic is not that of a representative democracy?

Therefore, the information you give is misleading and bias towards promoting a particular political cause or point of view. Which is, definitionally, propaganda.
 

bluesmoke

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Supposed to be. Here is the federal republic originally envisioned by the Federalists that supported the ratification of the Constitution, from The Federalist No. 45:

"The Constitution delegates a few, defined powers to the federal government. The remaining State powers are numerous and indefinite.​
"Federal powers will be principally exercised on external objects, like war, peace, negotiation, and foreign commerce. Taxation will be the primary federal power over foreign commerce.​
"The State powers extend to everything that, in the ordinary course of affairs, concerns the lives, liberties, property of the people, internal order, improvement, and the prosperity of the State.​
"The federal government’s operations will be most extensive and important in times of war and danger. Those of the State governments, in times of peace and security.​
"Since times of war will probably be small compared to peacetime, the State governments will enjoy another advantage over the federal government. Indeed, the more adequate the federal national defense, the less frequent the danger that might favor its ascendancy over the governments of the States."​

What we have now bears very little resemblance to that original vision, and the mere possibility that the Supreme Court might be guided by it in the case of something like, say, abortion is enough to have Liberals frothing at the mouth.

The Federalist papers are not the Constitution. The framers were not bound to those papers. Otherwise, those papers would be the Constitution, which they are not in entirety nor as was changed and added in the Constitution.

"...While the original aim of the Constitutional Convention was to amend and improve the quality of the Articles of Confederation, the eventual result was the construction and ratification of what would become the Constitution of the United States. As such, there are many ideas that are present in the Articles of Confederation which differ starkly from the Constitution and this is largely the result of the influence of the Federalist Papers and the information that was propagated within these influential documents."

(See 1st para):
 

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Well, you are half right.


Only by morons who don't have the vaguest clue.


By people who actually have a clue.


Does it need to be mentioned more than once?


The Guarantee Clause just ensures a republican form of government, there is nothing about providing for a "majority rule."

The entire purpose behind the US government at the federal level was to limit popular elections as much as possible. Which is why, when originally created, both the Senate and the President were determined by the States and not the people. However, since the ratification of the Seventeenth Amendment, only the President is elected by the States today.

All you do is cast aspersion without supporting evidence.

We have a federalist govt balanced by certain rights given to states. The Constitution created a federal system in the United States. By the Constitution, there was nothing that prevented the country from choosing pop vote, as made so by 17A, which amendment was accomplished by a representative democracy, and gave add'l powers to the fed govt in requiring states to elect by pop vote of reps from the state, rather than by state legs.

"A chief aim of the Constitution as drafted by the Convention was to create a government with enough power to act on a national level, but without so much power that fundamental rights would be at risk."

https://www.whitehouse.gov/about-the-white-house/our-government/the-constitution/

There is no "... entire purpose behind the US government at the federal level was to limit popular elections as much as possible." in the Constitution., as you wrongly state.

You simply are incapable of accepting the fact of two things being correct at the same time, a republic and a representative democracy, nor that there can be a balance of powers, the fed govt and the states.
 

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The Preamble says to "form a more perfect union" not "form a perfect union". This might be the time to point out that Christians aren't always correct either. Nobody was ever promised a perfect world.
Then maybe you should stop seeking the perfect socialist utopia that you've been seeking.
 
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