The Pledge of Allegiance

[Schweddy]

Interestingly enough, I just heard from a Teacher that all kids must stand in Texas.

*proud* to be here.:2usflag:

 

[shuamort]

I just found this article about the PoA with some interesting stuff in it:

Francis Bellamy (1855 - 1931), a Baptist minister, wrote the original Pledge in August 1892. He was a Christian Socialist. In his Pledge, he is expressing the ideas of his first cousin, Edward Bellamy, author of the American socialist utopian novels, Looking Backward (1888) and Equality (1897).

His original Pledge read as follows: 'I pledge allegiance to my Flag and (to*) the Republic for which it stands, one nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.' He considered placing the word, 'equality,' in his Pledge, but knew that the state superintendents of education on his committee were against equality for women and African Americans. [ * 'to' added in October, 1892. ]

Dr. Mortimer Adler, American philosopher and last living founder of the Great Books program at Saint John's College, has analyzed these ideas in his book, The Six Great Ideas. He argues that the three great ideas of the American political tradition are 'equality, liberty and justice for all.' 'Justice' mediates between the often conflicting goals of 'liberty' and 'equality.'

In 1923 and 1924 the National Flag Conference, under the 'leadership of the American Legion and the Daughters of the American Revolution, changed the Pledge's words, 'my Flag,' to 'the Flag of the United States of America.' Bellamy disliked this change, but his protest was ignored.

In 1954, Congress after a campaign by the Knights of Columbus, added the words, 'under God,' to the Pledge. The Pledge was now both a patriotic oath and a public prayer.

Bellamy's granddaughter said he also would have resented this second change. He had been pressured into leaving his church in 1891 because of his socialist sermons. In his retirement in Florida, he stopped attending church because he disliked the racial bigotry he found there.

If the Pledge's historical pattern repeats, its words will be modified during this decade. Below are two possible changes.

Some prolife advocates recite the following slightly revised Pledge: 'I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America and to the Republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all, born and unborn.'

A few liberals recite a slightly revised version of Bellamy's original Pledge: 'I pledge allegiance to my Flag, and to the Republic for which it stands, one nation, indivisible, with equality, liberty and justice for all.'

(And just in case you're wondering where I found this website, I linked it from here. The Texas police central website.)

 

[GarzaUK]

Interestingly enough, I just heard from a Teacher that all kids must stand in Texas.

*proud* to be here.:2usflag:

Quite oppressive, where is the choice?

Choice is what democracy and freedom is all about. Choice is the most valuble thing a person can have.

 

[sebastiansdreams]

LIGHTEN UP Sebastian! It's called FUN! It is a joke! You know like the theory of creation... a joke son! :2party:

Why is it that you feel the need to take a cut at my faith everytime you can? You have this notion that it is completely wrong for myself and others to try to "push" our faith on you, but then, you jump at every chance you get, make an attempt to call our faith "crap" and "a joke" and "lies." You talk about respect for a country? How about respect for the fact that I am intellegent enough to come to my own conclusions and that you only come off as a complete and utter jerk who is so convinced by his inability to have any faith or conviction towards something that he can't see or touch, that he has to mock those who stand in his opposition so that he can feel as though he is intellegent or right. You are a sad case of someone who is consumed with feeding his own ego and living in his own little lie. So really, the joke's on you.

 

[26 X World Champs]

You say that in a private ceremony, you'd stand up whether or not you believed in it. Why compromise your morals? You said that if someone has a problem with something, they can act how they please. Even if they might have the constitutional right to do so, it doesn't mean it's right.

I would never disrespect people in a private ceremony. Why go if my action would hurt their feelings and disrupt their thing?

Stand and be silent. A kid in my homeroom in high school would always stand and not say anything. He made his point that he respected out country, but he disliked the current administration. Other kids recited the pledge, but left out "under god." Just because you have the constitutional right to be an asshole doesn't mean you should.

1. I never said that I wouldn't stand up.
2. What I choose to do is my choice, and you calling me or anyone an asshole is flat out nasty and wrong.
3. If you get your panties in a bunch because someone does or doesn't do something in a public place that is legal and an expression of their right to free speech then that's your problem, and I think it's wrong to make someone feel that they've done something wrong because you disagree with it.
4. I will again suggest to all of you that in Nazi Germany EVERYONE stood and respected the Nazi government, and because people were afraid and/or prevented from saying NO the Nazis grew to become the evilest empire in human history. I'm not saying that is happening here. I am saying that what makes America different from Nazi Germany is the right to dissent, and the right to do so without someone calling them an asshole or in any way making them feel less than for speaking their mind.

To me real Americans are tolerant and respectful to anyone who wants to peacefully express their opinion. Suggesting that ostracizing someone who's political statement makes you unhappy is against what America is all about.

If the worst thing that happened to you today is that someone next to you didn't stand up for the Pledge of Allegiance then I think you've had a pretty good day!

 

[anomaly]

I respecfully think this is wrong. Look at the opposite end, without that flag and the 'Republic for which is stands' - you would not be able to make that choice. Yes, the "good manners" argument applies. It is as though you are spitting in the face of all the soldiers that have died defending the ideas (not the flag itself) 'for which is stands'.

The flag is as you said is just a piece of cloth that will get old and moldy with age. If one does not respect the symbolism, our government and way of life will do the same. Your ability to make that choice will cease to exist.

While I do believe your intentions are indeed patriotic, they are equally shallow.

"I pledge allegience to the flag" is not neccesarily swearing loyalty, it is paying respect. A synonym for allegience is fidelity. Are you against the ideas of the US and more faithful toward another country? Infidelity is unpatriotic to any nation.

You know, another synonym for allegiance is loyalty! It is swearing loyalty. However, does one really need loyalty to mindlessly recite the pledge, as I do at school every Monday morning? I wouldn't say I have any loyalty to my country, because loyalty is too powerful a word. I love the USA, but to be loyal to it is to support its (the government's) actions, and this I cannot do. But to my fellow anti-pledgers here, I say why not just humor those ultra-patriots, and recite it? I'd rather do that than have some overly-loyal so called patriot yell at me for being 'anti-American'.

I think the more important idea of this forum is not the pledge, but patriotism itself. In post-9/11 America, the level of patriotism is scary. We should show respect to our home country, the true meaning of patriotism, and we should love our country, but sadly, this is not what patriotism in the 21st century is. Patriotism's definition has become fuzzy over the past 3 and a half years. Today, patriotism is love of one's government, not one's country. There are all too many examples of this today. I don't know how many times I've heard some self-professed 'patriot' call a leftist anti-American for not supporting Bush's wars. I myself have been told on this very forum by some obviously mentally troubled 'patriot' that my hatred for Bush means that I hate our soldiers. These developments are perhaps the most frightening thing in modern America. We must remember that this kind of patriotism is not good, in fact, it is extremely dangrous, since patriotism today is really about viewing American foreign policy as completely infallible. Remember that it was this kind of patriotism that led to the democratic election of Hitler and the Nazi party in Germany.

 

[RightinNYC]

1. I never said that I wouldn't stand up.

Good.

2. What I choose to do is my choice, and you calling me or anyone an asshole is flat out nasty and wrong.

I wasn't implying that you were an asshole, just making the point that just because someone has the constitutional right to do something, doesn't make it right.

3. If you get your panties in a bunch because someone does or doesn't do something in a public place that is legal and an expression of their right to free speech then that's your problem, and I think it's wrong to make someone feel that they've done something wrong because you disagree with it.

It's called social mores. I have the right to show my displeasure just the same as they have the right to not stand.

4. I will again suggest to all of you that in Nazi Germany EVERYONE stood and respected the Nazi government, and because people were afraid and/or prevented from saying NO the Nazis grew to become the evilest empire in human history. I'm not saying that is happening here. I am saying that what makes America different from Nazi Germany is the right to dissent, and the right to do so without someone calling them an asshole or in any way making them feel less than for speaking their mind.

People on the left keep making the ignorant claim that this or that is like Nazi Germany. "BUSH IS HITLER" and stupid **** like that. IN EVERY totaliarian govt, left or right, everyone has to salute the flag, etc. I'm not asking you to salute or die for it, just to stand when the Pledge is recited or the National Anthem is played. They ask it at every baseball game, so what's the problem?

To me real Americans are tolerant and respectful to anyone who wants to peacefully express their opinion. Suggesting that ostracizing someone who's political statement makes you unhappy is against what America is all about.

To me, real Americans are patriotic and stand for the flag. And as to the ostracizing, I get more than enough of that from the left. Are they against what America is all about too, or does it just apply to the right?

If the worst thing that happened to you today is that someone next to you didn't stand up for the Pledge of Allegiance then I think you've had a pretty good day!

Agreed.

 

[RightinNYC]

Remember that it was this kind of patriotism that led to the democratic election of Hitler and the Nazi party in Germany.

The next person who makes a completely ignorant claim associating the US with Nazi Germany, I will personally....well, be very unhappy with.

 

[26 X World Champs]

People on the left keep making the ignorant claim that this or that is like Nazi Germany. "BUSH IS HITLER" and stupid **** like that.

Read what I wrote, please? I never called Bush Hitler, I never said this or that is like Nazi Germany. The only stupid sh*t is that you're twisting my words to be something that I never wrote. I'm guessing that you learned that from your Republican heroes who make a living telling people things that Democrats said, but actually never said. Repeat it enough and people start to believe the lie as truth..

Just to rebut your untrue (aka lie) about what I wrote this is exactly what I wrote:

I will again suggest to all of you that in Nazi Germany EVERYONE stood and respected the Nazi government, and because people were afraid and/or prevented from saying NO the Nazis grew to become the evilest empire in human history. I'm not saying that is happening here. I am saying that what makes America different from Nazi Germany is the right to dissent, and the right to do so without someone calling them an asshole or in any way making them feel less than for speaking their mind

Maybe you need to read it again so it sinks in? What I wrote is PRO-America. It celebrates our freedoms. Only when someone twists these words into BS Republican talking points do we disrespect America. If you think what I wrote meant that Bush is a Nazi or America is like Nazi Germany then, to be blunt, you are 100% wrong.

You said people on the left make ignorant claims! The TRUTH is the only ignorant claim made in the last few posts came from someone who heard what he wanted to hear and then lashed out and called a group of people ignorant. You know?

IN EVERY totaliarian govt, left or right, everyone has to salute the flag, etc. I'm not asking you to salute or die for it, just to stand when the Pledge is recited or the National Anthem is played. They ask it at every baseball game, so what's the problem?

I would love to see how YOU would react if you were pressured into not excercising your Constitutional right to dissent? When you go to a baseball game and someone doesn't stand does it ruin your day? How about the guy who stands but doesn't take off his hat and put it over his heart? Is he spitting on the grave of all war veterans too?

The concept that standing or sitting while a pledge or song is being played defines your patriotism is just dumb! Really dumb!

To me, real Americans are patriotic and stand for the flag.

Then you would be very, very wrong, and IMHO, very, very twisted. Real Americans aren't so shallow that their patriotism is judged solely on their ability to stand and salute! :ind:

 

[RightinNYC]

Read what I wrote, please? I never called Bush Hitler, I never said this or that is like Nazi Germany. The only stupid sh*t is that you're twisting my words to be something that I never wrote. I'm guessing that you learned that from your Republican heroes who make a living telling people things that Democrats said, but actually never said. Repeat it enough and people start to believe the lie as truth..

Just to rebut your untrue (aka lie) about what I wrote this is exactly what I wrote:

Maybe you need to read it again so it sinks in? What I wrote is PRO-America. It celebrates our freedoms. Only when someone twists these words into BS Republican talking points do we disrespect America. If you think what I wrote meant that Bush is a Nazi or America is like Nazi Germany then, to be blunt, you are 100% wrong.

I didn't say you said that. Bit defensive much? I said that I'm sick of people on the left saying that. It was mostly directed at the post after yours, by anomaly, where he associated Bush with Hitler.

I would love to see how YOU would react if you were pressured into not excercising your Constitutional right to dissent? When you go to a baseball game and someone doesn't stand does it ruin your day? How about the guy who stands but doesn't take off his hat and put it over his heart? Is he spitting on the grave of all war veterans too?

If I was pressured to not excercise my right to dissent, I would keep dissenting, if I had any principles. If someone wants to protest, I can't stop them. But I can disapprove. If they really care, they should be strong enough to stand for their beliefs. And no, when I go to a baseball game and see someone refuse to stand up for the pledge, it doesn't ruin my day. I just laught to myself and think "What a douchebag." And that is my constitutional right.

The concept that standing or sitting while a pledge or song is being played defines your patriotism is just dumb! Really dumb!

Well! I guess we know how you feel about that! Really!

Then you would be very, very wrong, and IMHO, very, very twisted. Real Americans aren't so shallow that their patriotism is judged solely on their ability to stand and salute! :ind:

It's just a simple part of being an American. You can go your way, and I'll go mine.

 

[ShamMol]

To me, real Americans are patriotic and stand for the flag. And as to the ostracizing, I get more than enough of that from the left. Are they against what America is all about too, or does it just apply to the right?

To you. They are not against what america is all about, they might be showing their disdain for being forced to pledge alleigence. They might not be standing because they don't want to swear loyalty to anyone but god. They may not be standing on principle. They may not be standing because they just don't want to. But honestly, there is nothing wrong with any of those. We live in a free country and with that freedom comes responsibility, and they choose their own path. If they don't want to stand, they don't have to. And whoever mentioned that texas thing, that is being challenged in court already, lol.

 

[RightinNYC]

To you. They are not against what america is all about, they might be showing their disdain for being forced to pledge alleigence. They might not be standing because they don't want to swear loyalty to anyone but god. They may not be standing on principle. They may not be standing because they just don't want to. But honestly, there is nothing wrong with any of those. We live in a free country and with that freedom comes responsibility, and they choose their own path. If they don't want to stand, they don't have to. And whoever mentioned that texas thing, that is being challenged in court already, lol.

I agree with you. They have the right to do whatever they want.

And I will be there, standing and thinking "What a douchebag," just like I said.

 

[ShamMol]

I agree with you. They have the right to do whatever they want.

And I will be there, standing and thinking "What a douchebag," just like I said.

But would you say that?

 

[RightinNYC]

But would you say that?

I'd think it. Depends on the person as to whether or not I'd say it.

 

[argexpat]

The real debate isn't whether to strike "under God" from the pledge. The real debate is whether it's the state's job to indoctrinate our children. Indoctrination should be done by parents, not the state. In that respect we're no different than North Korea. Therefore, there should be no recitation of the pledge of allegiance in public schools.

Here's a pledge I think everyone can live with:

I [robotically mouth the words to a loyalty oath I was forced to memorize during government-sponsored childhood indoctrination out of fear of being ostracized] to [a multi-colored cloth representing territories acquired through warfare and genocide] and to the [corporate plutocracy] for which it stands, one [arbitrarily bordered land mass occupied by racially diverse people ruled by an entrenched white elite] under [a mythical being with supernatural powers believed in by humans in order to ease the fear that they are insignificant specks hurdling toward eternal oblivion in a cold, uncaring universe], indivisible [except during the Civil War], with liberty and justice for [those who can afford it].

 

[ShamMol]

The real debate isn't whether to strike "under God" from the pledge. The real debate is whether it's the state's job to indoctrinate our children. Indoctrination should be done by parents, not the state. In that respect we're no different than North Korea. Therefore, there should be no recitation of the pledge of allegiance in public schools.

Here's a pledge I think everyone can live with:

I [robotically mouth the words to a loyalty oath I was forced to memorize during government-sponsored childhood indoctrination out of fear of being ostracized] to [a multi-colored cloth representing territories acquired through warfare and genocide] and to the [corporate plutocracy] for which it stands, one [arbitrarily bordered land mass occupied by racially diverse people ruled by an entrenched white elite] under [a mythical being with supernatural powers believed in by humans in order to ease the fear that they are insignificant specks hurdling toward eternal oblivion in a cold, uncaring universe], indivisible [except during the Civil War], with liberty and justice for [those who can afford it].

Well, however funny it is to read, it is completely innappropriate to suggest that be the pledge. The pledge is an oath of loyalty and respect, not one of mocking tones.

The real debate about the pledge was brought about thanks to the words "Under God" so that is where the debate begins. I just odn't think that something that was put in for purely politcal reasons 50 years ago should stay in the pledge.

 

[26 X World Champs]

The pledge is an oath of loyalty and respect

Why do people feel that they have to make an oath of loyalty?

Whatever happened to "actions speak louder than words?"

To me, the reason it's inane is that not saying it or any loyalty oath does not mean for one second that you're disloyal, disrespectful, or unpatriotic.

Last point? Forcing someone to say something due to peer pressure dilutes the value of it, doesn't it? If we are so myopic that it is necessary to judge one's patriotism by reciting 30 or so words what does that say about us? Is our patriotism so precarious that the simple act of sitting down while someone is reciting an oath means that we have traitors amongst us? I think not!

:2no4:

 

[ShamMol]

Why do people feel that they have to make an oath of loyalty?

Whatever happened to "actions speak louder than words?"

To me, the reason it's inane is that not saying it or any loyalty oath does not mean for one second that you're disloyal, disrespectful, or unpatriotic.

Last point? Forcing someone to say something due to peer pressure dilutes the value of it, doesn't it? If we are so myopic that it is necessary to judge one's patriotism by reciting 30 or so words what does that say about us? Is our patriotism so precarious that the simple act of sitting down while someone is reciting an oath means that we have traitors amongst us? I think not!

:2no4:

I agree with you, I was just restating what people on the board were saying.

Yes, that is very true, it dilutes it but peer pressure also makes it hard for those who don't want to or are asked not to by parents to not stand up. So, I agree with you, trust me, I was just restating what people on the board were stating the oath represents and also saying how unthoughtful that "pledge" he posted was...so that he could understand.

 

[anomaly]

The next person who makes a completely ignorant claim associating the US with Nazi Germany, I will personally....well, be very unhappy with.

I simply point out that massive 'nationalism' (Europe's word for patriotism) llowed the democratic election of Hitler. Do you deny this? And then I simply point out that there is a huge amount of patriotism today in America, not unlike the patriotism that existed in post WWI Germany. Do you deny this? I am not associating the US itself with Nazi Germany, I only point out the similar levels of patriotism, it's an example of what could happen, not what is happening. I never realized that citing a fact means I'm ignorant.

 

[Squawker]

I simply point out that massive 'nationalism' (Europe's word for patriotism) llowed the democratic election of Hitler.

I don't believe Hitler was "elected". Let's check it out.

 

[shuamort]

I don't believe Hitler was "elected". Let's check it out.

Here's a quick summation:

Myth: Democracy elected Hitler to power.

Fact: Hitler used backroom deals, not votes, to come to power.


Summary

Hitler never had more than 37 percent of the popular vote in the honest elections that occurred before he became Chancellor. And the opposition among the 63 percent against him was generally quite strong. Hitler therefore would have never seen the light of day had the German Republic been truly democratic. Unfortunately, its otherwise sound constitution contained a few fatal flaws. The German leaders also had a weak devotion to democracy, and some were actively plotting to overthrow it. Hitler furthermore enjoyed an almost unbroken string of luck in coming to power. He benefited greatly from the Great Depression, the half-senility of the president, the incompetence of his opposition, and the appearance of an unnecessary backroom deal just as the Nazis were starting to lose popular appeal and votes.



Argument

Critics of democracy often claim that Hitler was democratically elected to power. This is untrue. Hitler never had the popular votes to become Chancellor of Germany, and the only reason he got the job was because the German leaders entered into a series of back-room deals. Some claim that Hitler's rise was nonetheless legal under the German system. The problem is that what was "legal" under the German system would not be considered legal under a truer and better-working democracy. In a democracy along the lines of the United States or Great Britain, Hitler could have never risen to power.

On a side note, I just saw the movie "Der Untergang" (English Title, "Downfall")on Thursday night. It's a new German film about the final days of Hitler in the bunker. I really recommend anyone to see it but be prepared to be disturbed. The scene where Mrs Goebbels gives the children poison after drugging them to sleep because she doesn't want the children to grow up in a world with National Socialism (Nazism) is really chilling.

 

[Squawker]

:good_job: shuamort

 

[SpheryEyne]

Forcing someone to say something due to peer pressure dilutes the value of it, doesn't it? If we are so myopic that it is necessary to judge one's patriotism by reciting 30 or so words what does that say about us? Is our patriotism so precarious that the simple act of sitting down while someone is reciting an oath means that we have traitors amongst us?

Well said. True patriotism can't really be defined, and in my mind, actions mean far more than any words ever spoken or written. Where's the sincerity in talking of "liberty and justice for all" if we are not willing to stand up and fight for that liberty and justice for ALL -- for our friends, our neighbors, and those with whom we disagree?

I think it would be fair to say that the Pledge means something different to each person here, doesn't it? To me, it is not important that I state in words something that I can only feel in my heart and express through my actions. Even if the words of the Pledge were ones I agreed with wholeheartedly, I would not take them as more than words. To other people, of course, the Pledge is their own expression of the love and gratitude they feel toward our country, and I understand and respect that. But I still will not stand and I will not recite those words.

SE

 

[Deus Ex Machina]

Winning an American presidential election with only 37% is not inconceivable. As an example, the great Abraham Lincoln only carried 39.9% of the popular vote.

I don't know the details of the political field of Weimar-era Germany, but if they followed the typical European pattern, the Germans would have had quite a few parties from which to choose. So Hitler being democratically elected? Maybe.

The lesson from history is that, in the absence of vigilance in guarding our freedoms, it can happen here too.

 

[Schweddy]

But I still will not stand and I will not recite those words.

SE

Which do you have issue MORE with? Standing or reciting the words?
Both are not one in the same.

In previous posts in this thread it was split out - ok, don't say the words. Just stand for respect. But, descending points of view seem to have both even after the argument has been augmented to better fit the descents. Why is this?

Is this a lack of understanding the "just stand for respect" point of view? Or are you ignoring this part?