The Pledge of Allegiance

[26 X World Champs]

It's called respect.
It's called loving your country.
It's called enjoying and living that freedom.
It's called appreciation for the gift of the US to its citizens.
It's called dignity and citizen self esteem.
It's called honoring the men and women whom have died defending this great nation.
Most of all, it's called integrity.

The same people that refuse to acknowledge the symbol of the flag are the same folks that are destroying this country.

Standing for the pledge is simply saying "Thank you".

HUH? You judge someone's integrity by standing and reciting a pledge?

In the USA you can do as you please, that is what's great about America. Telling someone that they lack integrity for not reciting a pledge is no different than telling them they lack integrity for not believing in GOD, for not joining the Army, for not supporting everything the government does, no matter what! After all, isn't it "DISRESPECTFUL" to disagree with our government? Aren't you doing all the things you list by questioning why our government does anything? Sounds stupid, doesn't it?

What did Forrest Gump say?

"Stupid is as Stupid does."

I can't believe that anyone would be so shallow as to judge someone's integrity over something as incredibly trivial as the pledge. It's mind boggling!

Let's see? A person joins the military, goes to war, sees hell in war, is disgusted, mentally blemished for the rest of his life, returns to the USA, becomes a cancer surgeon, saves thousands of people's lives, donates his time to healing, BUT because of his war experience he feels uncomfortable standing for and reciting the pledge so therefore he lacks integrity?

When I read trite like this it really reminds me of Nazi Germany, not the USA!

 

[Contrarian]

However, one point that seems to be shared by you people on that side of the pond is that people should stand and recite (presumably parrot-fashion) the pledge of allegiance because people died so that they could choose not to do that. In which case people died for nothing because they effectively don't have that choice.

Or am I misunderstanding (which is very possible).

I think you are being fed euro - :spin: . While I won't say that in certain areas of the country (probabily Texas etc) a poor kid would be intimidated into a pledge... but not in the enlightened states. 26X is right and an example of the percentage of us who realize that patriotism is based upon dissent. Because you don't feel comfortable reciting a prayer or pledge still enables you to be an American... and probabily a better one that those who fail to explore the reasons why they do what they do.

So no, Naughty... we're not all mindless lemmings even though our President seems to have convinced many via fear and "mandate from God"... I'll bet there are a bunch of ignorant souls on your side of the pond as well?

 

[Contrarian]

So if you claim that the pledge is fine, but the "under god" part is political, then why don't you just stand for the pledge, but not say "under god?"

The fact is that the pledge did not include "under God" until 1953 when it was added during the "Commie under your bed" McCarthy era... forced by the Catholic Knights of Columbus. So what we have today is merely a political convenience added to counter the godless communists... afterall if they didn't recite the pledge, they would be black listed and lose their jobs etc. Let's keep the history clear here.

 

[Schweddy]

HUH? You judge someone's integrity by standing and reciting a pledge?
[kersnip]
I can't believe that anyone would be so shallow as to judge someone's integrity over something as incredibly trivial as the pledge. It's mind boggling!

Let's see? A person joins the military, goes to war, sees hell in war, is disgusted, mentally blemished for the rest of his life, returns to the USA, becomes a cancer surgeon, saves thousands of people's lives, donates his time to healing, BUT because of his war experience he feels uncomfortable standing for and reciting the pledge so therefore he lacks integrity?ha

I call it equally mind boggling by arguing about something I did not say.

I was refering just to not standing in the arguement, not reciting it as well.

And yes, I judge someones integrity if they claim to be patriotic but do not acknowledge our forefathers by at least standing. Sing a Britney Spears song if you have too.

Just stand.

 

[Squawker]

Where I come from the way you live your life and the respect that you show other people is a better barometer of someone's respect. It's so Archie Bunker-like to suggest that the 'pledge' is a way to judge someone.

How did you go from “respect” to “judge’? It shows “respect” for others who died for freedom, to stand for the pledge.

I can't believe that anyone would be so shallow as to judge someone's integrity over something as incredibly trivial as the pledge. It's mind boggling!

This isn’t about judging, this is about respect and their isn’t anything “trivial” about our “ Pledge of Allegiance”. Hey vauge, I need my sign back. :toilet:

 

[Contrarian]

26X... these guys are right about having respect for those who faught and died to defend this country. You (or any individual) may not respect the current administration, but to disrespect 200+ years of our history and struggle to be the standard for democracy in the world is just wrong.

I think W is a joke, but I have the utmost respect for the office he holds. We are not perfect, and if we do not have respect for our way of life then we have nothing... it's just wrong.

 

[Naughty Nurse]

I think you are being fed euro - :spin: .

No, I've been fed vauge spin - but then he is from Texas!

So no, Naughty... we're not all mindless lemmings even though our President seems to have convinced many via fear and "mandate from God"... I'll bet there are a bunch of ignorant souls on your side of the pond as well?

Sadly, yes there are

 

[26 X World Champs]

26X... these guys are right about having respect for those who faught and died to defend this country. You (or any individual) may not respect the current administration, but to disrespect 200+ years of our history and struggle to be the standard for democracy in the world is just wrong.

Please tell me where I wrote that I do not have respect for soldiers? I never wrote that! I said that I do not have respect for anyone who tells someone else they're not patriotic if they do not stand for the pledge!

To be frank, I think it's a ridiculous argument! Getting your panties in a bunch over someone standing or sitting of their own free will seems to me to be a colossal waste of energy.

I agree that if you're attending a private ceremony in a house of worship that you oblige your hosts by following the mores. That is very different than saying someone is anti-American and anti-veteran by choosing to not stand up.

There are many people who are against the Iraq war. To protest, some people choose to not stand up for the pledge, it's their expression of their feelings, period, and for someone else to read into their expression endless insults and really believing they are un-American and EVIL is just absurd, sorry.

I can't believe that the old 60's Hard Hat mentality of Love it or Leave It is being defended, it really does shock me.



FYI - I can think of a million better ways to respect our military veterans, i.e. fighting for better VA benefits! You think it's insulting to not stand up for a silly pledge and that means "I hate veterans" but cutting VA benefits, especially medical ones is OK?

That, my friends, is really F'd up!

:blastem:

 

[ShamMol]

26X... these guys are right about having respect for those who faught and died to defend this country. You (or any individual) may not respect the current administration, but to disrespect 200+ years of our history and struggle to be the standard for democracy in the world is just wrong.

I think W is a joke, but I have the utmost respect for the office he holds. We are not perfect, and if we do not have respect for our way of life then we have nothing... it's just wrong.

So am I wrong, theoretically, to not say the pledge of alleigence for something that was added 60 years ago for purely political reasons? I have the upmost respect for what the pledge stands for-unity, morality, and strength-but i have no respect for two words that I absolutely refuse to say. Can you guess? Under god was only added because we were fighting the Godless commies...no reason to have it now especially considering it impinges on the first amendment rights of those who are not of the christian faith because when they put it in, that was the one they were talking about, if they had meant a general one, they would have said one above or something.

 

[sebastiansdreams]

"...one nation, under CANADA, indivisible..." = perfect solution
In reality I agree with the argument to take "under God" out of the pledge, but for an entirely different reason. I feel it is an exercise of reciting a statement regarding God that is not giving Him reverence. In other words, many people who say those lines either don't believe in God or have never asked that our country be led by God. Furthermore, a greater number of people simply recite the words, under God, without having any true intentions of seeking God's leadership in the country. While God may continue to bless us because of those who pray for our country, I do not feel it necessary for us to defimate His holy name in a pledge for a country who does not, as a whole seek his guidance. God can see to the heart of those speaking the pledge. He can defirientiate between those of us who truly seek His guidance and those of us who do not, so why then is it necessary to keep it in the pledge of allegience to a country? It is not wrong to ask the blessings of God for America. It is not at all wrong to believe that we are still a nation, under God. But to force non-believers into saying a psuedo-half-prayer in a pledge to our nation is not only pointless, but it, in a way, takes away from the importance of our true prayers for guidance for the nation.

 

[ShamMol]

"...one nation, under CANADA, indivisible..." = perfect solution
In reality I agree with the argument to take "under God" out of the pledge, but for an entirely different reason. I feel it is an exercise of reciting a statement regarding God that is not giving Him reverence. In other words, many people who say those lines either don't believe in God or have never asked that our country be led by God. Furthermore, a greater number of people simply recite the words, under God, without having any true intentions of seeking God's leadership in the country. While God may continue to bless us because of those who pray for our country, I do not feel it necessary for us to defimate His holy name in a pledge for a country who does not, as a whole seek his guidance. God can see to the heart of those speaking the pledge. He can defirientiate between those of us who truly seek His guidance and those of us who do not, so why then is it necessary to keep it in the pledge of allegience to a country? It is not wrong to ask the blessings of God for America. It is not at all wrong to believe that we are still a nation, under God. But to force non-believers into saying a psuedo-half-prayer in a pledge to our nation is not only pointless, but it, in a way, takes away from the importance of our true prayers for guidance for the nation.

Great solution, lol. I tend to agree with you on all but one point. I think that in a public setting it is very wrong for a public official to invoke god's name in asking for help. In a private, non-political setting, it is perfectly appropriate, but in a public setting when representing constituents, it isn't. While the majority of those consituents are believing, it doesn't take away the fact that some aren't. Rule of the majority but not at the expense of the minority... I really hadn't considered the reverence shown to him and the callousness with which we say it, but it is an interesting point, one i will have to think about.

 

[RightinNYC]

The fact is that the pledge did not include "under God" until 1953 when it was added during the "Commie under your bed" McCarthy era... forced by the Catholic Knights of Columbus. So what we have today is merely a political convenience added to counter the godless communists... afterall if they didn't recite the pledge, they would be black listed and lose their jobs etc. Let's keep the history clear here.

I understand exactly why it happened. It was political.

So, if you support the pledge, but disapprove of the political intersession, then why not stand, recite the pledge, and be silent for "under god?"

It seems to me like that would make the person's conscience clear.

 

[ShamMol]

I understand exactly why it happened. It was political.

So, if you support the pledge, but disapprove of the political intersession, then why not stand, recite the pledge, and be silent for "under god?"

It seems to me like that would make the person's conscience clear.

The fact that a person is forced to hear that part at such a young age is the issue with many of the cases. They don't necessarily understand what they are saying and many agnostic and atheist parents don't want to subject their children to having to hear it. They could just say, just sit down. But, consider the peer pressure that exists in lower grade school. They will be laughed at, jeered possibly, because their classmates won't understand. The kid is hurt possibly and its not a good thing. That is what they are arguing.

 

[RightinNYC]

Please tell me where I wrote that I do not have respect for soldiers? I never wrote that! I said that I do not have respect for anyone who tells someone else they're not patriotic if they do not stand for the pledge!

To be frank, I think it's a ridiculous argument! Getting your panties in a bunch over someone standing or sitting of their own free will seems to me to be a colossal waste of energy.

I agree that if you're attending a private ceremony in a house of worship that you oblige your hosts by following the mores. That is very different than saying someone is anti-American and anti-veteran by choosing to not stand up.

There are many people who are against the Iraq war. To protest, some people choose to not stand up for the pledge, it's their expression of their feelings, period, and for someone else to read into their expression endless insults and really believing they are un-American and EVIL is just absurd, sorry.

I can't believe that the old 60's Hard Hat mentality of Love it or Leave It is being defended, it really does shock me.



FYI - I can think of a million better ways to respect our military veterans, i.e. fighting for better VA benefits! You think it's insulting to not stand up for a silly pledge and that means "I hate veterans" but cutting VA benefits, especially medical ones is OK?

That, my friends, is really F'd up!

:blastem:

You say that in a private ceremony, you'd stand up whether or not you believed in it. Why compromise your morals? You said that if someone has a problem with something, they can act how they please. Even if they might have the constitutional right to do so, it doesn't mean it's right.

If I hated the actions of the Japanese government, but was meeting two businessmen to do business, and they bowed to me, I would bow back. I would place a sense of respect for the many faceted culture that was behind the action, and place aside my apprehension about the administration, actions, or manipulation of the "bow" system.

Stand and be silent. A kid in my homeroom in high school would always stand and not say anything. He made his point that he respected out country, but he disliked the current administration. Other kids recited the pledge, but left out "under god." Just because you have the constitutional right to be an asshole doesn't mean you should.

 

[RightinNYC]

The fact that a person is forced to hear that part at such a young age is the issue with many of the cases. They don't necessarily understand what they are saying and many agnostic and atheist parents don't want to subject their children to having to hear it. They could just say, just sit down. But, consider the peer pressure that exists in lower grade school. They will be laughed at, jeered possibly, because their classmates won't understand. The kid is hurt possibly and its not a good thing. That is what they are arguing.

I know, God forbid that a child would have to do something in school that might make him think. Claiming that because a child doesn't understand what he's saying, shouldn't have to say it, is a copout. Do you really feel that a child's freedom is being impinged upon by a teacher making him hear a 15 second verse?

 

[ShamMol]

I know, God forbid that a child would have to do something in school that might make him think. Claiming that because a child doesn't understand what he's saying, shouldn't have to say it, is a copout. Do you really feel that a child's freedom is being impinged upon by a teacher making him hear a 15 second verse?

Honestly, you should read that i said that is what they argue....

But in my personal opinion, copout or no copout, you have to understand that as taxpayers, parents actually have the right to say, hell my money technically pays for them to hear something i don't support and something that impinges on the seperation between church and state and also technically goes against my first amendment rights. They have that right to say that and frankly, they are right.

 

[Contrarian]

26x - I for one did not say "Love it or Leave it"... as one of those dissident college students who got the crap kicked out of him by construction workers, in the early 70's, I can tell you... I agree. However - I have learned that respect and dissent are not mutually exclusive. The basis for this forum is to debate / disagree with others yet respect who they are. I am not asking for more than that.

If someone feels strongly enough to turn their back to this symbol, then we as Americans should respect that freedom, but we also have the right to peacefully register our distain for their disrespect of the country.

and Sebastian, I think your idea has merit because we can prove that on a map... we are "under Canada"... we can't say that for "God"

 

[sebastiansdreams]

and Sebastian, I think your idea has merit because we can prove that on a map... we are "under Canada"... we can't say that for "God"

Can we? Are we under Canada? What if you don't see the world from a north is up perspective? We are not technically under Canada. Your means of "proof" are incredibly elementary and common. You accept the general public's definition of "proof", but fail to realize that if you actually held to each of your methods of proof consistantly, you wouldn't really believe anything to be true at all.

 

[shuamort]

Can we? Are we under Canada? What if you don't see the world from a north is up perspective? We are not technically under Canada.

Well, it'd additionally be screwy for Detroit and Niagara Falls which are both North of Canada. :mrgreen:

 

[sebastiansdreams]

Well, it'd additionally be screwy for Detroit and Niagara Falls which are both North of Canada. :mrgreen:

And the whole state of Alaska for cryin' out loud!

 

[GarzaUK]

Naughty and Garza.... what is scary or outdated about respect? Frankly I don't understand what is wrong with holding a door, standing when an older person or some other deserving individual enters the room?

Nothing is scary or wrong about respect.

I am obviously one of the most outspoken anti-religion people on this forum, yet if I must go to a wedding or funeral at a church I will stand when required out of respect for the person(s) I am there supporting. I don't believe the crap they are spewing, but I believe in my friends and respect their feelings.

The pledge does smack of a quasi "prayer", but if left in it's original form - without "Under God", it is nothing more than an affirmation of ones citizenship. As Vauge said, quite possibly a symbol of thanks for the benefits afforded by living in a successful democracy. Garza, I am particulary suprised at you since you were quick to jump on me when I made a snied comment about "God save the Queen"... is your nationalism anymore valid that Americas? Why is you anthem imploring "God" to save an antiquated mediveal feudal symbol, more rational that the Pledge of Allegiance? I think your Queen should retire and the "royal" family should take their lazy as*es and get a job!

It's not scary that the word God is in the pledge, I couldn't care less to be honest, it's a person's choice.

The clockwork pledge of allegience every Monday in some schools is very scary, very alien to me. It reminds me of the ultra-patriotism and nationalism that swept Germany in the 1930's. Whats worse as some members have said if they don't stand up their are called unpatriotic or ingrate, like that THEY HAVE to swear loyality to their country.

I think it is better to swear loyality to your ideals as a person than a state. I sing my national anthem with pride, but I would never swear blind loyalty to my state, coz I know that my state might get in wrong and go against my beliefs.

Respect the dead, fair enough. The only time I go to chuch is Rememberance Sunday to pay respect for the war dead, but systemnatically swearing (in public) loyalty to your country, seems scary.

What other countries do this? China maybe, Nazi Germany defintely did, not that I'm comparing United States to these countries, but it just seems so militaristic.

Maybe us Europeans are still twitchy about ultra-patriotism after world war 2, it led to fascism.

 

[Schweddy]

If someone feels strongly enough to turn their back to this symbol, then we as Americans should respect that freedom, but we also have the right to peacefully register our distain for their disrespect of the country.

It would simply be impossible write a better statement.

:applaud

 

[Contrarian]

Can we? Are we under Canada? What if you don't see the world from a north is up perspective? We are not technically under Canada. Your means of "proof" are incredibly elementary and common. You accept the general public's definition of "proof", but fail to realize that if you actually held to each of your methods of proof consistantly, you wouldn't really believe anything to be true at all.

LIGHTEN UP Sebastian! It's called FUN! It is a joke! You know like the theory of creation... a joke son! :2party:

 

[Contrarian]

Nothing is scary or wrong about respect.

I think it is better to swear loyality to your ideals as a person than a state. I sing my national anthem with pride, but I would never swear blind loyalty to my state, coz I know that my state might get in wrong and go against my beliefs.

Maybe us Europeans are still twitchy about ultra-patriotism after world war 2, it led to fascism.

I'm glad you agree about the respect part, because respect for the countries and democracies that were preserved at the cost of millions of lives (many of them Brits and Americans) is the reason we convey our respect in this way. It makes no difference if you are singing the national anthem or covering your heart with your hand when your flag passes. It is merely a sign of respect... or as your rightly put it... "pride".

 

[GarzaUK]

I'm glad you agree about the respect part, because respect for the countries and democracies that were preserved at the cost of millions of lives (many of them Brits and Americans) is the reason we convey our respect in this way. It makes no difference if you are singing the national anthem or covering your heart with your hand when your flag passes. It is merely a sign of respect... or as your rightly put it... "pride".

I disagree however that these pledges of allegiance should be conducted in schools. If you choose not to stand up your called ingrate etc, high school is tough enough, let alone someone being singled out because they simply don't want to declare loyalty to it.

The love of one's country is in the heart and THERE it should remain, not in a classroom, not in a church, and it should NEVER EVER be blind.

You shouldn't give loyalty to anything, but your own ideals. Me? My loyalities are family and friends and freedom, not Blair, not the Queen, not even the United Kingdom.
A country is a piece of land, a government is a group of people, neither of these things are worth fighting and dying for, ideals are. In the end you have to fight for yourself.

Personally speaking I think this pledge of alleigance in school is wrong, it tells the children, love your country - if you don't - your not worthy to be an American. That is plain wrong.