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The Plague of Success by Victor Davis Hanson.

Trajan Octavian Titus

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If you mods get on me for copyright infringement I'm going to site this in MLA format at the bottom for you ok?



Hanson, Victor. "The Plague of Success." National Review 29 Dec 2005, http://www.nationalreview.com/hanson/hanson200512290821.asp
 
It's not a matter of expecting too much progress in Iraq. We aren't making any. See my post on the other thread you made.

We simply don't have the time or resources to wait around in Iraq for the insurgency to magically go away, when Iran is building nuclear weapons.
 

We aren't making any progress read the other article I posted and tell me again how we're not making any progress. Seriously, what more does it take to convince you that we're winning? What more could possibly be done to qualify as the American's winning and the insurgency losing?
 
Kandahar said:
It's not a matter of expecting too much progress in Iraq. We aren't making any. See my post on the other thread you made.

What exactly would just a sign of progress be to you?
 
Stinger said:
What exactly would just a sign of progress be to you?

For the insurgency to become merely a nuisance, so that Bush is able to grow a spine and deal with Iran before they get nukes. Does anyone seriously believe that Iran would be this belligerent if we WEREN'T bogged down in Iraq?

If Iran acquires nukes, it will be because of the mess in Iraq. This president's "success" in Iraq will be responsible for the start of nothing less than a new Cold War (or a nuclear war) between the West and the Islamic world.
 

So if Iran acquires nukes it will be Bush's fault and not the fault of the Iranians themselves or how about the impotence of the U.N.? God is there anything that happens in this world that Bush isn't responsible for?
 
Trajan Octavian Titus said:
So if Iran acquires nukes it will be Bush's fault and not the fault of the Iranians themselves or how about the impotence of the U.N.?

It'll be the fault of the Iranians themselves, but it'll also be the fault of George Bush for not stopping them. Just like crime is the criminal's fault, but it can also be the fault of spineless law enforcement.

As for the UN, I can't really blame them for being impotent. There are two dictatorships with veto power, and no one (other than Germany) truly cares what the UN says about anything.

Trajan Octavian Titus said:
God is there anything that happens in this world that Bush isn't responsible for?

He's only responsible for things that he should act on and doesn't. Stopping Iran from getting nukes is pretty high on that list.
 

So what do you suggest... war? So that in two months when the going gets a little rough and we haven't found nuclear war heads and ICBM's the left starts up with their montra: "Bush lied kids died!" And start demanding that we cut and run. We stopped Saddam from getting WMDs no one ever has denied that he had weapons programs it's the stockpiles that are unaccounted for and look where it's gotten the President. Now you want us to go into Iran and start this game all over again.
 
Trajan Octavian Titus said:
So what do you suggest... war?

Yes. Duhh.

Trajan Octavian Titus said:
So that in two months when the going gets a little rough and we haven't found nuclear war heads and ICBM's the left starts up with their montra: "Bush lied kids died!"

Let them scream their heads off for all I care. I'm more concerned about the security of the United States and our allies, and the president should be too.

Trajan Octavian Titus said:
And start demanding that we cut and run.

A cut-and-run strategy would probably be the most effective for dealing with Iran. After we overthrow the government, thus ensuring the end of their nuclear program, I certainly have no interest in leaving American troops there to fight an insurgency or help them establish a democracy.

Trajan Octavian Titus said:
We stopped Saddam from getting WMDs no one ever has denied that he had weapons programs it's the stockpiles that are unaccounted for and look where it's gotten the President.

Yeah, making **** up is bad for credibility. That doesn't change the fact that Iran has an active nuclear program.

Trajan Octavian Titus said:
Now you want us to go into Iran and start this game all over again.

So what's your solution? Let Iran get nukes?
 
Kandahar said:
Yes. Duhh.



Let them scream their heads off for all I care. I'm more concerned about the security of the United States and our allies, and the president should be too.
You'll be one of them when we don't find a nuclear warhead on a ICBM pointed at the U.S. you'll be crying: "false intel, Bush lied, off with his head."

So you want us to overthrow the Iranian regime and then leave a stateless nation as a haven for AlQaeda and terrorists? That's exactly what O.B.L. wants. Good plan. :roll:
Yeah, making **** up is bad for credibility. That doesn't change the fact that Iran has an active nuclear program.
And Iraq had a WMD program that could have been put right back into operations within two weeks after the weapons inspectors left.
So what's your solution? Let Iran get nukes?

No I want to take out Iran but I don't think the Democrats that are calling for it are really behind it 100% they're just using Iran as a way to blame Bush for something else in a round about way. I think if Bush does deploy the troops you'll be hearing the same cut and run montra as they did with Iraq. Don't forget the Dems were 100% for the war in Iraq until the going got a little rough.
 
Sorry, but that's just ignorant.
 
Trajan Octavian Titus said:
You'll be one of them when we don't find a nuclear warhead on a ICBM pointed at the U.S. you'll be crying: "false intel, Bush lied, off with his head."

Umm no, ass.

There's no serious dispute that Iran is pursuing nuclear weapons. Compare that to pre-war Iraq, when people from all over the world were expressing great skepticism at the claims Iraq was pursuing nuclear weapons.

Trajan Octavian Titus said:
So you want us to overthrow the Iranian regime and then leave a stateless nation as a haven for AlQaeda and terrorists? That's exactly what O.B.L. wants. Good plan. :roll:

Let's see here...

Option A: A country with terrorist camps, controlled by mad mullahs with nuclear weapons that routinely supply these terrorists with weapons
Option B: A country with terrorist camps, occupied by American troops that are routinely attacked, kidnapped, and killed by these terrorists
Option C: A country with terrorist camps.

Which seems best to you? I prefer Option C.

Trajan Octavian Titus said:
And Iraq had a WMD program that could have been put right back into operations within two weeks after the weapons inspectors left.

Once again: Was Saddam Hussein 1-3 years from getting a nuclear bomb, and was Saddam Hussein a religious nut who believed it was his duty to bring about the apocalypse? No.


So what in the world are you disputing that I have written about Iran?
 
Kandahar said:
For the insurgency to become merely a nuisance,
Well that is about what they are. But THAT is the ONLY thing that would be a sign of progress throughout this whole thing? The elections are not? The constitution is not? The growing Iraqi forces are not?

so that Bush is able to grow a spine and deal with Iran before they get nukes.

Well wait a minute we are doing this in conjunction with the great governments or Europe, in fact THEY are the point men on this, remember the same governments the left says we should have listened to and deffered to over Iraq. Now we should act unilaterally against Iran? We should "bully" the Europeans?

Does anyone seriously believe that Iran would be this belligerent if we WEREN'T bogged down in Iraq?
Yes.

If Iran acquires nukes, it will be because of the mess in Iraq.
No it will be because the want them, have always wanted them, and tried to get them long before we were in Iraq.

This president's "success" in Iraq will be responsible for the start of nothing less than a new Cold War (or a nuclear war) between the West and the Islamic world.
So if we leave Iraq Iran will give up it's quest, which began long before were there, for nuclear arms? Absurd.

Had we not gone into Iraq and removed Saddam he would be well on HIS way to a nuclear weapon (if not having completed it) and you're saying in the face of this Iran would NOT have created their own? Folly.
 
Stinger said:
Well that is about what they are. But THAT is the ONLY thing that would be a sign of progress throughout this whole thing? The elections are not? The constitution is not? The growing Iraqi forces are not?

Not really, no. I'm interested in American security, not elections or constitutions in Iraq. And the Iraqi forces are only growing because we disbanded the entire army.

If the insurgency is just a nuisance, why don't we withdraw our troops and let the Iraqi government deal with the nuisance?


What you imagine some people believed about unilateralism in Iraq, is of little relevance to the reality of the situation facing us regarding Iran.

Stinger said:

Ridiculous. Iran is pushing for nukes now because they believe we're too weak to stop them. And if George Bush's actions are any indication, they're probably right.

Stinger said:
No it will be because the want them, have always wanted them, and tried to get them long before we were in Iraq.

But why is George Bush being such a ***** in stopping them, if not because of Iraq?

Stinger said:
So if we leave Iraq Iran will give up it's quest, which began long before were there, for nuclear arms? Absurd.

Not voluntarily. But we'll stop them.

Stinger said:
Had we not gone into Iraq and removed Saddam he would be well on HIS way to a nuclear weapon (if not having completed it) and you're saying in the face of this Iran would NOT have created their own? Folly.

That's ridiculous. Saddam was nowhere CLOSE to a nuclear bomb. Even if he wanted one it would've taken him at least ten years with no outside interference.

You guys would do a lot better in these debates over geopolitical strategy if you stopped lying, yes?
 
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