• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every persons position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!
  • Welcome to our archives. No new posts are allowed here.

The Peoples Republic of San Francisco strikes again:

Navy Pride

DP Veteran
Joined
Jul 11, 2005
Messages
39,883
Reaction score
3,070
Location
Pacific NW
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Very Conservative
http://today.reuters.com/news/newsA...0_US-ELECTION-SANFRANCISCO.xml&archived=False

San Francisco OKs bans on guns, army recruiters
Thu Nov 10, 2005 7:42 AM ET

SAN FRANCISCO (Reuters) - Voters in famously liberal San Francisco overwhelmingly approved measures banning handguns and encouraging schools to keep military recruiters off campus, according to election results on Wednesday.

With 100 percent of precincts reporting results from Tuesday's election, Measure H, which prohibits San Franciscans from owning handguns and bans the sale of all firearms and ammunition in the city, passed with 57.9 percent of the vote.

The National Rifle Association responded by filing a lawsuit challenging the measure in state court, noting it is preempted by federal and state laws and that the same state court had invalidated San Francisco's last attempt to impose a ban on handguns.

"Lawful residents of San Francisco are being stripped of their freedom because of an illegal measure that defies common sense," association vice-president Wayne LaPierre said in statement. "I believe that we will prevail,"

Measure I, a largely symbolic "declaration of policy that the people of San Francisco oppose the federal government's use of public schools to recruit students for service in the military," passed with 59.7 percent of votes.

The measure will have no effect on military recruiters as they are allowed on school grounds under federal law, according to U.S. Air Force Lt. Col. Ellen Krenke, a spokeswoman for the U.S. Department of Defense.
 

LaMidRighter

Klattu Verata Nicto
DP Veteran
Joined
May 19, 2005
Messages
30,534
Reaction score
10,682
Location
Louisiana
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Libertarian - Right
I say we step back and let San Francisco enjoy all of the "benefits" of their actions. We can simply use S.F. as an ideological testing ground to show proof of what pure liberalism truly solves.
Fact - Average response time of emergency units U.S. = approx. 8 min.
This is not bad and actually quite reasonable considering traffic, locating incident, assessing situation, and assigning appropriate units, but is no substitute for self sufficience in the primary response, especially during a crime in progress.
Libs, think about it, 8 min +/- and it only takes 8 sec. or less to kill the average human being if there is will to do so, but hey, if you want to put your life in someone else's hands then by all means, be my guest.
p.s.- Libs, if your house was on fire you would not stand around in the danger area until help arived, hopefully, I would assume that you would grab a fire extinguisher and clear a safe path to a safe zone, same with any danger, you would want to return to a state of safety quickly, so why entrust law enforcement officers on the way to the scene to keep a burgler, rapist, murderer, etc. from imposing their will on your person.:2usflag: :blastem: :smoking: :rwbelepha
 

shuamort

Pundit-licious
DP Veteran
Joined
Feb 4, 2005
Messages
7,297
Reaction score
1,000
Location
Saint Paul, MN
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
Good grief! I hope this is declared unconstitutional post haste. That's insane.
 

LaMidRighter

Klattu Verata Nicto
DP Veteran
Joined
May 19, 2005
Messages
30,534
Reaction score
10,682
Location
Louisiana
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Libertarian - Right
shuamort said:
Good grief! I hope this is declared unconstitutional post haste. That's insane.
I think it will all depend on how far it goes, if it stops at ninth circuit, S.F. wins, Supreme court should have to overturn the law but we never know these days if they hear the case at all. I think D.C. has a similar law, but am not quite sure, it isn't right to pass general gun bans though.
 

26 X World Champs

DP Veteran
Joined
Mar 6, 2005
Messages
7,536
Reaction score
429
Location
Upper West Side of Manhattan (10024)
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Liberal
LaMidRighter said:
I think it will all depend on how far it goes, if it stops at ninth circuit, S.F. wins, Supreme court should have to overturn the law but we never know these days if they hear the case at all. I think D.C. has a similar law, but am not quite sure, it isn't right to pass general gun bans though.
Funny that NYC has really strict gun control laws and violent crime is decreasing dramatically every year, yet Miami has really LIBERAL gun laws that allow people to carry guns almost anywhere and their crime rate is increasing every year and it is one of the most violent cities in America.

Coincidence?
 

debate_junkie

Worst Nightmare
Joined
Jul 4, 2005
Messages
919
Reaction score
19
Location
Pennsylvania
Gender
Female
Political Leaning
Moderate
LaMidRighter said:
I think it will all depend on how far it goes, if it stops at ninth circuit, S.F. wins, Supreme court should have to overturn the law but we never know these days if they hear the case at all. I think D.C. has a similar law, but am not quite sure, it isn't right to pass general gun bans though.
But playing devil's advocate a moment, if the people of SF are STUPID enough to vote for such a ludicrous measure... shouldn't they be allowed to live in their own stupidity? And I don't know the SC would overturn it. They've decided to allow any state or municipal government in the country take property under the guise of "the public good" what's to stop them from finding a reason to uphold the law? And before you say it... anymore these days Constitution's don't always apply.. just ask the PA State Supreme Court and legislature. They've probably forgotten what that document is.
 

LaMidRighter

Klattu Verata Nicto
DP Veteran
Joined
May 19, 2005
Messages
30,534
Reaction score
10,682
Location
Louisiana
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Libertarian - Right
debate_junkie said:
But playing devil's advocate a moment, if the people of SF are STUPID enough to vote for such a ludicrous measure... shouldn't they be allowed to live in their own stupidity? And I don't know the SC would overturn it. They've decided to allow any state or municipal government in the country take property under the guise of "the public good" what's to stop them from finding a reason to uphold the law? And before you say it... anymore these days Constitution's don't always apply..
I understand where you are coming from here, California is basically becoming a write off state, but, the principle is the same in either case, Bill of Rights issues should be taken very seriously and certainly protected vigilantly, states have no right to violate legal gun ownership in the same way that they cannot censor harmless speech, unfortunately though you are right about the court and the eminent domain case, that was a joke, meaning we should fight it even more dilligently.
just ask the PA State Supreme Court and legislature. They've probably forgotten what that document is.
Sorry, which issue are you referring to?
 

LaMidRighter

Klattu Verata Nicto
DP Veteran
Joined
May 19, 2005
Messages
30,534
Reaction score
10,682
Location
Louisiana
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Libertarian - Right
26 X World Champs said:
Funny that NYC has really strict gun control laws and violent crime is decreasing dramatically every year, yet Miami has really LIBERAL gun laws that allow people to carry guns almost anywhere and their crime rate is increasing every year and it is one of the most violent cities in America.

Coincidence?
Come on Champs, it's more than gun control, look at New Orleans, they brought up suit against the gun companies and also have strict gun control policies, such as any city does, yet crime was already a problem before the after hurricane chaos. Most of the time you have to adress the criminal and not the means of commission, Miami doesn't exactly have ready access to firearms either. All banning guns will do is insure that the criminals have sole access to them, criminals don't follow the law, so therefore adding more laws means just one more statute to ignore, and getting street guns isn't exactly that hard to do, they are prevelant in fact anywhere you want them and even easier to obtain in shipping areas like the coast.
 

debate_junkie

Worst Nightmare
Joined
Jul 4, 2005
Messages
919
Reaction score
19
Location
Pennsylvania
Gender
Female
Political Leaning
Moderate
LaMidRighter said:
I understand where you are coming from here, California is basically becoming a write off state, but, the principle is the same in either case, Bill of Rights issues should be taken very seriously and certainly protected vigilantly, states have no right to violate legal gun ownership in the same way that they cannot censor harmless speech, unfortunately though you are right about the court and the eminent domain case, that was a joke, meaning we should fight it even more dilligently. Sorry, which issue are you referring to?
Some internal passage of legislation. They have resorted to "caucas" where they iron out the details of proposed legislation, and then pass them in the dead of night, with no public debate. A slots bill, a legislative payraise, including an "unvouchered" expense that they could take, when it's against the PA constitution for legislatures to take their pay hike during a current term.

The reason I used that reference, is because many people want to believe the Supreme Court, Federally and at the state level, uphold the consititutions of the states, and of the land... and yet, the PA Supreme Court has let the legislature of this state ignore the Constitution, and they simply look the other way.
 

LaMidRighter

Klattu Verata Nicto
DP Veteran
Joined
May 19, 2005
Messages
30,534
Reaction score
10,682
Location
Louisiana
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Libertarian - Right
debate_junkie said:
LaMidRighter said:
Some internal passage of legislation. They have resorted to "caucas" where they iron out the details of proposed legislation, and then pass them in the dead of night, with no public debate. A slots bill, a legislative payraise, including an "unvouchered" expense that they could take, when it's against the PA constitution for legislatures to take their pay hike during a current term.
Thank you for the clarification. That surely isn't right, I believe the legislature has the duty to provide the public with a public outlet for information and discourse, an uninformed public has no power to select the proper path or representation and that is by it's nature unethical and improper if it is constitutional.

The reason I used that reference, is because many people want to believe the Supreme Court, Federally and at the state level, uphold the consititutions of the states, and of the land... and yet, the PA Supreme Court has let the legislature of this state ignore the Constitution, and they simply look the other way.
I believe this is a failure to properly educate the masses as to the role of the court, I feel that we as a society have developed a blind trust in the high court because we are taught the principles and protocol of the court, yet not the scope of their authority and the consequences of their interpretations or overreach of authority.
 

debate_junkie

Worst Nightmare
Joined
Jul 4, 2005
Messages
919
Reaction score
19
Location
Pennsylvania
Gender
Female
Political Leaning
Moderate
LaMidRighter said:
debate_junkie said:
Thank you for the clarification. That surely isn't right, I believe the legislature has the duty to provide the public with a public outlet for information and discourse, an uninformed public has no power to select the proper path or representation and that is by it's nature unethical and improper if it is constitutional.

I believe this is a failure to properly educate the masses as to the role of the court, I feel that we as a society have developed a blind trust in the high court because we are taught the principles and protocol of the court, yet not the scope of their authority and the consequences of their interpretations or overreach of authority.
Well, the sleeping electorate in PA finally woke up. 1 of 2 Justices was denied retention for the SC. He is done in January. The legislature is on notice. Next year... GAME OVER!
 

UtahBill

DP Veteran
Joined
Sep 30, 2005
Messages
18,265
Reaction score
6,648
Location
Utah
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Moderate
26 X World Champs said:
Funny that NYC has really strict gun control laws and violent crime is decreasing dramatically every year, yet Miami has really LIBERAL gun laws that allow people to carry guns almost anywhere and their crime rate is increasing every year and it is one of the most violent cities in America.

Coincidence?
Funny, the links I find say just the opposite......
Cities favoring strict gun control have higher crime rates, while those areas where the average citizen is likely to own a gun, the crime rate is low in comparison.
Besides, increasing, or decreasing rate is not the issue. It is the comparison of crime events between cities that matters.
 

Navy Pride

DP Veteran
Joined
Jul 11, 2005
Messages
39,883
Reaction score
3,070
Location
Pacific NW
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Very Conservative
It only makes sense that in states when there are restrictions on hand guns that the crime rate would be higher........The restrictions mean nothing to the criminals........They are not going to abide by them or turn in their hand guns..............

These laws only make it easier for criminals to commit crimes on law abiding citizens.......

It does not surprise me that this was passed in SF.
 

26 X World Champs

DP Veteran
Joined
Mar 6, 2005
Messages
7,536
Reaction score
429
Location
Upper West Side of Manhattan (10024)
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Liberal
UtahBill said:
Funny, the links I find say just the opposite......
Cities favoring strict gun control have higher crime rates, while those areas where the average citizen is likely to own a gun, the crime rate is low in comparison.
Besides, increasing, or decreasing rate is not the issue. It is the comparison of crime events between cities that matters.
Oh really? Well since you chose to not post any facts at all, I've chosen to post the facts about crime in NYC vs. the national average. Keep in mind that for those of you living outside of NYC you most likely believe that NYC is crime ridden, a scary place, dangerous, etc. The truth is that NYC has become one of the safest cities in America. When you send your children away to college in another city you have to warn them about crime because living in Manhattan they are not exposed to it very often, if it all.

FACTS re NYC:
Murder:
Is 0.96 times the National Average
Forcible Rape:
Is 0.55 times the National Average
Robbery:
Is 1.47 times the National Average
Aggravated Assault:
Is 1.06 times the National Average
All Violent Crime:
Is 1.23 times the National Average
Burglary:
Is 0.41 times the National Average
Larceny or Theft:
Is 0.52 times the National Average
Car Theft:
Is 0.49 times the National Average
Arson:
Is 0.00 times the National Average
All Property Crime:
Is 0.49 times the National Average

Data Source:
2003 FBI Report of Offenses Known to Law Enforcement

Source: http://www.cityrating.com/citycrime.asp?city=New+York&state=NY

NYC is ranked the 16th SAFEST city in the USA. Surprised? Viriginia Beach is the safest city. Oh yeah....San Francisco is #15...coincidence?

The bottom 4 are Las Vegas, Baltimore, Detroit & Atlanta. Gun control laws in those states are what compared to NY & California? Did I mention that SAn Jose is the the 2nd safest, San Diego #6.

Think Minneapolis is safe? Nope, #30. Chicago? #34. Philadelphia? #37. How about the home city of intelligent design, Kansas City? #38!

For murders, you know violent crimes with GUNS, NYC is #14, San Jose #1, San Francisco #16. Miami is #38, New Orleans #48, Dallas #36. Oh yeah, Boston, in the great state of Massachussetts with really strict gun control laws is #12. How about Phoenix in Arizona, another state that loves guns, is #33.

Source: http://www.citymayors.com/society/uscities_safest.html
 

26 X World Champs

DP Veteran
Joined
Mar 6, 2005
Messages
7,536
Reaction score
429
Location
Upper West Side of Manhattan (10024)
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Liberal
Navy Pride said:
It only makes sense that in states when there are restrictions on hand guns that the crime rate would be higher........The restrictions mean nothing to the criminals........They are not going to abide by them or turn in their hand guns..............

These laws only make it easier for criminals to commit crimes on law abiding citizens.......

It does not surprise me that this was passed in SF.
Did you forget my advice again Navy? Try posting the exact opposite of what your brain is telling you is the truth and you'll get it right! You see your post is again, totally wrong....:ws
 

UtahBill

DP Veteran
Joined
Sep 30, 2005
Messages
18,265
Reaction score
6,648
Location
Utah
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Moderate
26 X World Champs said:
FACTS re NYC:
NYC is ranked the 16th SAFEST city in the USA. Surprised? Viriginia Beach is the safest city. Oh yeah....San Francisco is #15...coincidence?

The bottom 4 are Las Vegas, Baltimore, Detroit & Atlanta. Gun control laws in those states are what compared to NY & California? Did I mention that SAn Jose is the the 2nd safest, San Diego #6.

Think Minneapolis is safe? Nope, #30. Chicago? #34. Philadelphia? #37. How about the home city of intelligent design, Kansas City? #38!

For murders, you know violent crimes with GUNS, NYC is #14, San Jose #1, San Francisco #16. Miami is #38, New Orleans #48, Dallas #36. Oh yeah, Boston, in the great state of Massachussetts with really strict gun control laws is #12. How about Phoenix in Arizona, another state that loves guns, is #33.

Source: http://www.citymayors.com/society/uscities_safest.html
Well, it seems that NYC is becoming safer. I wonder how it would look in a running 5 year average?
Part of the info is skewed a bit when you look at this kind of thing. I was asked how could I feel safe in the city where I live, and the answer was easy.
I don't hang around bars at any time, much less during the weekend when the drunks and crazies are out in full force. I don't mess with drugs or drug dealers. I don't go to certain parts of town at all. And I don't **** off my wife. Odds are, I will never be shot.
 

Navy Pride

DP Veteran
Joined
Jul 11, 2005
Messages
39,883
Reaction score
3,070
Location
Pacific NW
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Very Conservative
I personally have 2 hand guns and 2 rifles in my home.......I use the rifles for hunting......I have taught my family how to use the handguns and would never give up my 2nd amendment right and turn them in.............I use the pistols for taget practice and to protect my family.........

God forbid if we ever have a natural disaster here and the scum of the earth come out of their holes and start looting and committing crimes they will have to answer to me if the invade my property.......If my wife is alone and someone trys to break into my home she knows how to use my handguns and will blow the scum heads off.............

Case closed............
 

26 X World Champs

DP Veteran
Joined
Mar 6, 2005
Messages
7,536
Reaction score
429
Location
Upper West Side of Manhattan (10024)
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Liberal
UtahBill said:
Well, it seems that NYC is becoming safer. I wonder how it would look in a running 5 year average?
Part of the info is skewed a bit when you look at this kind of thing.
New York has become safer every single year for about 15 years now. At one time in our not too distant past there were over 3000 murders committed in one year. In 2003 it was down to 597 and in 2004 under 500. This is dramatic, not an anamoly.
 

26 X World Champs

DP Veteran
Joined
Mar 6, 2005
Messages
7,536
Reaction score
429
Location
Upper West Side of Manhattan (10024)
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Liberal
Navy Pride said:
I personally have 2 hand guns and 2 rifles in my home.......I use the rifles for hunting......I have taught my family how to use the handguns and would never give up my 2nd amendment right and turn them in.............I use the pistols for taget practice and to protect my family.........

God forbid if we ever have a natural disaster here and the scum of the earth come out of their holes and start looting and committing crimes they will have to answer to me if the invade my property.......If my wife is alone and someone trys to break into my home she knows how to use my handguns and will blow the scum heads off.............

Case closed............
Yeah, case closed alright....:shock:
 

Binary_Digit

DP Veteran
Joined
May 21, 2005
Messages
4,145
Reaction score
1,637
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Libertarian
This is one area where I couldn't disagree more with the liberals. As corrupt as our government is today, it's laughable that people want to let them take away our right to bear arms too. I think it's a stretch to compare crime rates in different cities and say that strict gun laws are the reason. By that logic, San Francisco is "safer" because more gays live there.
 

26 X World Champs

DP Veteran
Joined
Mar 6, 2005
Messages
7,536
Reaction score
429
Location
Upper West Side of Manhattan (10024)
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Liberal
Binary_Digit said:
By that logic, San Francisco is "safer" because more gays live there.
Dude, you might want to rethink that remark or do you think that Gays are less criminally inclined than heteros?

Comparing laws as a measure of safety is logical, comparing sexual preference, however, is just not smart, sorry.
 

Deegan

DP Veteran
Joined
Aug 1, 2005
Messages
5,528
Reaction score
2
Location
Chicago
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Conservative
Well you can still own a rifle right, what's the problem then, you can still protect your property, and family?
 

26 X World Champs

DP Veteran
Joined
Mar 6, 2005
Messages
7,536
Reaction score
429
Location
Upper West Side of Manhattan (10024)
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Liberal
Deegan said:
Well you can still own a rifle right, what's the problem then, you can still protect your property, and family?
Right! The Gun Lobby doesn't even want you to have to register your gun or go through a background check before buying one!

I do not know anyone that owns a gun, nor do I know anyone whose ever committed a crime with a gun or had the need to prevent a crime with a gun. The convoluted logic of 'defending' my home with a gun is psycho IMHO, but that's just me.

I really think it's a penis envy thing....
 

Deegan

DP Veteran
Joined
Aug 1, 2005
Messages
5,528
Reaction score
2
Location
Chicago
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Conservative
26 X World Champs said:
Right! The Gun Lobby doesn't even want you to have to register your gun or go through a background check before buying one!

I do not know anyone that owns a gun, nor do I know anyone whose ever committed a crime with a gun or had the need to prevent a crime with a gun. The convoluted logic of 'defending' my home with a gun is psycho IMHO, but that's just me.

I really think it's a penis envy thing....
I would disagree with it being "psycho", there are bad, crazy, and sick people out there, and they have been known to break in peoples homes, and abduct their children, rape their women, or just rob you then kill all the witnesses! If a gun makes you feel more safe, you should be able to keep one, I just don't think you need a hand gun. Sure, some folks just have guns to boost their ego's, some use them to intimidate, and that's why I don't like hand guns, because you never know when someone has one.
 
Last edited:

26 X World Champs

DP Veteran
Joined
Mar 6, 2005
Messages
7,536
Reaction score
429
Location
Upper West Side of Manhattan (10024)
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Liberal
Deegan said:
I would disagree with it being "psycho", there are bad, crazy, and sick people out there, and they have been known to break in peoples homes, and ubduct their children, rape their women, or just rob you then kill all the witnesses! If a gun makes you feel more safe, you should be able to keep one, I just don't think you need a hand gun. Sure, some folks just have guns to boost their ego's, some use them to intimidate, and that's why I don't like hand guns, because you never know when someone has one.
I think it's fair to say that there's a direct correlation to violent gun deaths and guns. In the USA we have more guns than anywhere else, and way more murders per capita than anywhere else.

Simply put, more guns = more murders. Do you realize how few gun murders there are in countries like England, France or Japan? We "kill" them when it comes to the amount of people killed each year, it's a slaughter.
 
Top Bottom