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The other side of abortion

bowerbird

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A friend who works in a Maternity oriented ICU told me that last year they had 3 women who were diagnosed as terminal cancer whilst pregnant and every one of them chose to continue the pregnancy even if it meant their own lives would be shortened. This caused some ethical re-thinking as usually the mother's life is paramount (it is a catholic hospital).

So, the question is - if this were your loved one would you support her no matter what her choice was - to terminate and survive longer or to try and live long enough to give the baby a chance?

How would you react?
 

Johnny

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It's their decision and I'd give them 100% support either way.
 

tacomancer

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How would you react?

My wife and I have previously discussed all sort of possibilities, and we both came to the conclusion that we would never consider abortion, even in a horrible situation, such as this. I don't believe that this decision is more ethical than that of the women who have cancer, its just what is right for us.
 

Your Star

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It's up to the person, not some third party to decide.
 

Laila

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So, the question is - if this were your loved one would you support her no matter what her choice was - to terminate and survive longer or to try and live long enough to give the baby a chance?

How would you react?

If my life was in danger, I would terminate but if anyone else does the opposite. I wish them all the luck in the world. Individuals choice.
 

digsbe

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I would say the woman having an abortion to lengthen her terminally ill self is more "justified" in it. But it's still murder and still wrong.
 

Aunt Spiker

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A friend who works in a Maternity oriented ICU told me that last year they had 3 women who were diagnosed as terminal cancer whilst pregnant and every one of them chose to continue the pregnancy even if it meant their own lives would be shortened. This caused some ethical re-thinking as usually the mother's life is paramount (it is a catholic hospital).

So, the question is - if this were your loved one would you support her no matter what her choice was - to terminate and survive longer or to try and live long enough to give the baby a chance?

How would you react?

To each their own - every couple should discuss it, make decisions - and if their heart goes against their previous decision that they've come to it shouldn't make them *feel* bad.

What an aweful situation to be in, though - ugh - I really couldn't imagine having to be in such a situation and make any type of a choice.

Personally - I see no point in risking my life when that might me all of my other children might be without a mother :shrug: but thankfully I'm not actually in that situation - who knows- maybe if it ever came around I'd feel differently.
 

mac

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A friend who works in a Maternity oriented ICU told me that last year they had 3 women who were diagnosed as terminal cancer whilst pregnant and every one of them chose to continue the pregnancy even if it meant their own lives would be shortened. This caused some ethical re-thinking as usually the mother's life is paramount (it is a catholic hospital).

So, the question is - if this were your loved one would you support her no matter what her choice was - to terminate and survive longer or to try and live long enough to give the baby a chance?

How would you react?

IT wouldn't be an issue for us. My wife would definitely want to have the child. Children are immortality.
 

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A friend who works in a Maternity oriented ICU told me that last year they had 3 women who were diagnosed as terminal cancer whilst pregnant and every one of them chose to continue the pregnancy even if it meant their own lives would be shortened. This caused some ethical re-thinking as usually the mother's life is paramount (it is a catholic hospital).

So, the question is - if this were your loved one would you support her no matter what her choice was - to terminate and survive longer or to try and live long enough to give the baby a chance?

How would you react?


It's amazingly difficult to put myself in that hypothetical situation, since I don't have any female loved ones.
I mean, I have friends, I have a new daughter-in-law, I'll soon have a granddaughter.
But I don't feel close enough to any of these females that I would feel I had any say- or any real stake- in whether they chose to abort or not.

I think it's their choice, obviously. That's what being pro-choice is all about.
Further, I think people with terminal cancer should have the right to cease all treatment beyond palliative care, and do whatever they feel like, and not worry about whether this is shortening or lengthening their lives. In other words, since death is inevitable, focus on quality of life, not quantity.
And more than simply having the right, I think they should be encouraged to do just that.
My husband's dad is in the hospice, dying of cancer right now. We've been visiting him.
So I've been thinking about it a lot lately, and I really think we as a society have the wrong attitude toward terminal illness.
People who are terminally ill should do whatever they want with their remaining days, whether that be bungee jumping or remaining drugged into unconsciousness with morphine 24/7, giving birth or having an abortion and traveling to Tahiti instead.
It is my belief that this life is all there is- nothing beyond it- and when you're terminally ill, that means your jig is up. Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law.
 
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1069

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IT wouldn't be an issue for us. My wife would definitely want to have the child. Children are immortality.

No, they're not.
Children are as pitifully mortal as we are.
You have no idea how easy it is to wipe out an entire bloodline, or how often, in the past, this has happened.
I mean, I get the concept, but don't fool yourself.
With as few children as people in industrialized nations have these days, it's both easy and common for a bloodline to dead-end.
 

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I am not surprised it's a Catholic hospital.

If one of my sister's made that choice I wouldn't be happy about it... I wouldn't be happy about them risking their lives, because I love them.... but I am pro choice.

I don't have to agree. I just have to respect their choice and that means not forcing them to do what I want... and that is what I would do
 

Orion

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I would support her decision either way, even though I would be saddened if it meant having to say goodbye sooner.

Her body, her choice.
 

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I am not surprised it's a Catholic hospital.

If one of my sister's made that choice I wouldn't be happy about it... I wouldn't be happy about them risking their lives, because I love them.... but I am pro choice.

I don't have to agree. I just have to respect their choice and that means not forcing them to do what I want... and that is what I would do

The hospital in question tries very hard NOT to let it's biases influence it and usually the dictum is that the woman's life is paramount - even in the Catholic hospital if it came to a choice between the foetus and the woman the woman is chosen - and yes even in late pregnancy (thank god we no longer have to do it but at one time, if it was an obstructed labour (baby stuck in the pelvis) the baby would be killed to save the mother.)

This actually upset the staff that they had to basically had to put the baby first over the woman - and before the RTL'ers jump all over me - think yourself of interacting with someone, coming to like them but knowing that they are being threatened by something you have not yet met or seen. Intellectually we know what is happening -emotionally not so much so. Also it is ICU - we are about survival
 

cpwill

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A friend who works in a Maternity oriented ICU told me that last year they had 3 women who were diagnosed as terminal cancer whilst pregnant and every one of them chose to continue the pregnancy even if it meant their own lives would be shortened. This caused some ethical re-thinking as usually the mother's life is paramount (it is a catholic hospital).

So, the question is - if this were your loved one would you support her no matter what her choice was - to terminate and survive longer or to try and live long enough to give the baby a chance?

How would you react?

with mourning (i would be losing my wife); and probably by pouring everything i had into raising the only piece of her i had left (our children).
 

cpwill

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before the RTL'ers jump all over me - think yourself of interacting with someone, coming to like them but knowing that they are being threatened by something you have not yet met or seen. Intellectually we know what is happening -emotionally not so much so.

my second boy is due here in the next week or so :)D:D:D). in no way would i say that my wife and I don't already have a very deep emotional connection to him, and have for quite some time.

Also it is ICU - we are about survival

i remember we had a doc who refused to stop giving a Marine CPR... but the guy's head was blown. i mean, there there was absolutely no way, but he couldn't unlatch from the idea of if he could just keep the body alive long enough to get to the MEK..... :shrug: i get it that part - it's hard to give up on something you're that devoted to.
 
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mac

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my second boy is due here in the next week or so :)D:D:D). in no way would i say that my wife and I don't already have a very deep emotional connection to him, and have for quite some time.

Congrats!!
 

bowerbird

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my second boy is due here in the next week or so :)D:D:D). in no way would i say that my wife and I don't already have a very deep emotional connection to him, and have for quite some time.



i remember we had a doc who refused to stop giving a Marine CPR... but the guy's head was blown. i mean, there there was absolutely no way, but he couldn't unlatch from the idea of if he could just keep the body alive long enough to get to the MEK..... :shrug: i get it that part - it's hard to give up on something you're that devoted to.

Congrats on the baby

And yes, often it is very very hard to give up on someone even if you know it is helpless.

But this is what makes the abortion issue NOT a black and white one but one with an almost infinite number of shades of grey. When H1N1 (Swine Flu) hit it affected the pregnant women the hardest and with many pregnant women they ended up doing early caesareans hoping that the baby would survive but knowing that unless they did get that baby out NEITHER would survive.

By all accounts it was extremely difficult to care for these women in ICU as they had multiple issues relating to decreased absorption of gastric feeding with high insulin levels causing hypoglycaemia, high oxygen requirements but sick lungs etc etc. More than one pregnant woman did NOT survive because the dramatic physiologic changes during pregnancy. Experience has taught us that we might have to sacrifice one to save another

So many many many shades of grey and what is right for one is not right for another
 
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cpwill

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Congrats on the baby

:lol: still not yet - momma is very unhappy about this, but he will come in his own time :)

But this is what makes the abortion issue NOT a black and white one but one with an almost infinite number of shades of grey. When H1N1 (Swine Flu) hit it affected the pregnant women the hardest and with many pregnant women they ended up doing early caesareans hoping that the baby would survive but knowing that unless they did get that baby out NEITHER would survive.

i really don't see how that's a shade of grey; you are choosing to possibly save both lives as opposed to definitely losing both lives.

nor do i see a whole lot of shades-of-grey with the abortion issue; to me that's a human life; i don't recognize any more legitimate reasons to kill it than i do to kill you, or me, or my wife, or my child.

By all accounts it was extremely difficult to care for these women in ICU as they had multiple issues relating to decreased absorption of gastric feeding with high insulin levels causing hypoglycaemia, high oxygen requirements but sick lungs etc etc. More than one pregnant woman did NOT survive because the dramatic physiologic changes during pregnancy. Experience has taught us that we might have to sacrifice one to save another

my questions to you then would be A) what percentage of pregnancies is this, are you suggesting that there are endless shades of grey within an extremely small sample of circumstances and B) to what extend are you counting both one lives/the other dies decisions with one has greater risk/the other has lesser risk decisions.

as for that first set, that is the ****ty end of the stick; and then you spend the rest of your life trying not to wonder if you made the right call; if and maybe and but what about....

friends used to ask me if i killed anyone. man, if you've killed someone, you don't want to talk about it (unless that's your way of dealing).

but at the end of the day, as far as me and my wife are concerned, we love our children enough we would sacrifice our lives for them; and frankly i think (and if some see me as morally judgemental here i don't care), that all parents should feel the same way towards their kids; those who don't have that kind of near-agape love i look at as poor parents; unworthy of the blessing of a child that they have been given.
 

Demon of Light

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I would have great admiration for a woman who chooses the life of her child over her own no matter the circumstance, but I will not fault someone for choosing differently.
 

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I would say the woman having an abortion to lengthen her terminally ill self is more "justified" in it. But it's still murder and still wrong.

Murder is a legal term described for the unlawful killing of another human being. This is not an illegal act. In accordance with the legal system which you brought up, this seems much more inline with "Self-Defense", not murder.
 

nonpareil

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Murder is a legal term described for the unlawful killing of another human being. This is not an illegal act. In accordance with the legal system which you brought up, this seems much more inline with "Self-Defense", not murder.

Self-defence is a legal term too. According to the legal system, if the abortion occures in the first or some part of the second trimester, it's a private medical procedure in which the state does not have enough interest to interfere with.
 
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