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The Obamacare irony

ReformCollege

ReformCollege

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When millions of uninsured Americans go shopping for health plans in the Obamacare marketplaces opening on Oct. 1, many are expected to choose high-deductible plans. These policies are often the cheapest available, but they come with a tradeoff: Patients pay low premiums in exchange for shouldering the cost of most care until they reach deductibles of $1,000 or more. It’s a model Democrats have long deplored and one that Republicans, who this summer voted to repeal the Affordable Care Act for the 40th time in the House, have spent two decades promoting.
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Oh the irony. Don't get me wrong, I deplore some provisions of the ACA, especially the ones about restrictions of medical underwriting as well as the expansion of Medicaid. But I was always quite partial to the idea of medical marketplaces and this, this is pure gold.

http://www.businessweek.com/articles/2013-09-05/what-the-gop-has-to-love-about-obamacare
 
ReformCollege said:
Oh the irony. Don't get me wrong, I deplore some provisions of the ACA, especially the ones about restrictions of medical underwriting as well as the expansion of Medicaid. But I was always quite partial to the idea of medical marketplaces and this, this is pure gold.

What the GOP Has to Love About Obamacare - Businessweek
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I didn't realize Democrats were steadfastly against even $1,000 deductibles. Bastards.

It is the lack of deductibles that has driven healthcare through the roof. The idea that our own politicians object to market forces is scandalous. But.

Why am I not surprised?
 
ReformCollege said:
Oh the irony. Don't get me wrong, I deplore some provisions of the ACA, especially the ones about restrictions of medical underwriting as well as the expansion of Medicaid. But I was always quite partial to the idea of medical marketplaces and this, this is pure gold.

What the GOP Has to Love About Obamacare - Businessweek
Click to expand...

Yup, conservatives often argue against ideas that are actually conservative ideas. Thats why I post my lean as "independent", I don't want to feel tied into any particular political platform, especially when the platforms are almost random sets of ideas that are often self defeating or seemingly go against what they claim they are for.

The concept of the insurance mandate IS a conservative idea, thunk up by conservatives, and advocated by conservatives, until democrats said "sure, thats a reasonable compromise, let's do it", then suddenly it became a bad idea to most conservatives.

It's a crazy world we live in. I prefer my fantasy world.
 
MaggieD said:
I didn't realize Democrats were steadfastly against even $1,000 deductibles. Bastards.

It is the lack of deductibles that has driven healthcare through the roof. The idea that our own politicians object to market forces is scandalous. But.

Why am I not surprised?
Click to expand...

AFAIK, democrats aren't against $1000 deductibles.

If someone wants to take that risk, it's fine with me. It's their money

What I don't like is people who can't afford to pay high medical bills and go without any insurance. When they get something serious, they lay the bill on everyone else.
 
imagep said:
Yup, conservatives often argue against ideas that are actually conservative ideas. Thats why I post my lean as "independent", I don't want to feel tied into any particular political platform, especially when the platforms are almost random sets of ideas that are often self defeating or seemingly go against what they claim they are for.

The concept of the insurance mandate IS a conservative idea, thunk up by conservatives, and advocated by conservatives, until democrats said "sure, thats a reasonable compromise, let's do it", then suddenly it became a bad idea to most conservatives.

It's a crazy world we live in. I prefer my fantasy world.
Click to expand...

You're such as clown.

;) ;) ;)
 
More lies of the RW.

See these fake plans are specificly banned.

Coverage must be usefull and meet min, standards. And you can only pay so much to a HC event (in a year), eliminated the "high deductable" plans.

See your max pay out here. It also means no more HC bankruptcys.

Subsidy Calculator | The Henry J. Kaiser Family Foundation
 
274ina said:
More lies of the RW.

See these fake plans are specificly banned.

Coverage must be usefull and meet min, standards. And you can only pay so much to a HC event (in a year), eliminated the "high deductable" plans.

See your max pay out here. It also means no more HC bankruptcys.

Subsidy Calculator | The Henry J. Kaiser Family Foundation
Click to expand...

Under Obamacare, one can have a deductible as high as $2,000. Yet Another White House Obamacare Delay: Out-Of-Pocket Caps Waived Until 2015 - Forbes

What "fake plans"?
 
MaggieD said:
I didn't realize Democrats were steadfastly against even $1,000 deductibles. Bastards.

It is the lack of deductibles that has driven healthcare through the roof. The idea that our own politicians object to market forces is scandalous. But.

Why am I not surprised?
Click to expand...

Your not surprised because you understand that most people are economic idiots.

Most people who don't have a good understanding of economics or business really dislike the idea of high insurance deductables. The average person on the street believes that insurance exists to save them money in their normal monthly budget. Of course you and I know that insurance doesn't do that, and can't do that. All it can do is spread risk, which in itself has some value, but we don't need to pay hundreds of dollars a month to spread the risk that we are going to have to pay a $100 doctors bill in any one given month, any more than we need to pay an insurance company hundreds of dollars to pay for a tank of gas.

Years ago I was paying $800 a month for a "good" insurance policy with a low deductible and a $20 copay. Then I discovered that I could get a high deductible major medical policy for a fraction of the price, and use the $650/mth savings to pay for my normal monthly medical expenses and still have money left over to save for the rare occasion when my medical care costs might exceed that amount.

When I have tried to explain this to people that I personally know, their first reaction is that I am making this up. They don't believe that it's possible to get a $150 a month major medical policy. Even after I have shown them my bill and paperwork, they still don't believe it. I think that they don't WANT to believe it, because if they did, they would realize how much money that they (or their employer) has been wasting for all of these years. What they want to believe is that the $500 deductable $20 copay insurance policy has been saving them money.

It's kind of like a 10 year old believing in Santa Clause, even though they know deep in their heart that the concept of Santa is not logical.
 
sangha said:
AFAIK, democrats aren't against $1000 deductibles.

If someone wants to take that risk, it's fine with me. It's their money

What I don't like is people who can't afford to pay high medical bills and go without any insurance. When they get something serious, they lay the bill on everyone else.
Click to expand...

A $1000 deductable isn't much of a risk when a family can save hundreds of dollars a month by having a $1000 deductable instead of a $500 deductable. As a matter of fact, it's possible to save the entire cost of that deductable each month just by the savings in the cost of the insurance policy (considering that the difference is actually only $500).
 
274ina said:
More lies of the RW.

See these fake plans are specificly banned.

Coverage must be usefull and meet min, standards. And you can only pay so much to a HC event (in a year), eliminated the "high deductable" plans.

See your max pay out here. It also means no more HC bankruptcys.

Subsidy Calculator | The Henry J. Kaiser Family Foundation
Click to expand...

My high deductible major medical policy is useful to me. I just hope that it isn't gonna get taken away from me. Even if it doesn't qualify to meet the Obamacare standards, it will still be to my advantage to keep it, and just pay the fine/tax.
 
imagep said:
My high deductible major medical policy is useful to me. I just hope that it isn't gonna get taken away from me. Even if it doesn't qualify to meet the Obamacare standards, it will still be to my advantage to keep it, and just pay the fine/tax.
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All plans allowed must meet the standards. And they better enforce it.

Paying the fine is for NOT having insurance, not for not having a new plan.
 
274ina said:
$2000 is payable.

$450,000 is not payable ...............

But still allowing life time limits is still allowing dumping.

Fake plans
High deductable plans
Covers $100 of any ER visit.
Cover $1000 max.
etc etc etc all fake.
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Sure, I've seen those plans. But thats not the type of plan that we are talking about. Those are backwards plans.

My major medical policy has a $5000 deductable, it then pays 60% up to a $10,000 out of pocket per year expense. So if I have a $50 doctors visit, I pay for that out of pocket (from my HSA). If I have a $500 doctor bill, I also pay for that out of pocket. If I have a $5000 total annual medical expense, I pay for that out of pocket. All of that is less than the cost of a typical low deductable insurance policy annually.

If I have a $10000 annual health care expense, then I have to pay $5000 plus 40% of the extra five thousand, so that would be $7000 total, which is still less than the cost of my old 80/20 plan with a $500 deductable and $20 copay.

if I have a $500,000 medical bill, then I pay exactly $10k, which is about the same as I was paying for my "good" policy, before I switched to my high deductible policy, so including the cost of my high deductable, I would spend a grand total of $11,800 that year. If I had kept my old policy, I would have spent $500 (the deductable), plus 20% of $500k which is $100,000, plus $9600 on the policy, totaling $110,100. Now THATS a cost that I can't afford.
 
ReformCollege said:
Oh the irony. Don't get me wrong, I deplore some provisions of the ACA, especially the ones about restrictions of medical underwriting as well as the expansion of Medicaid. But I was always quite partial to the idea of medical marketplaces and this, this is pure gold.
Click to expand...

Not so ironic. The ACA is full of ideas from across the ideological spectrum. There just happens to be a certain slice of that spectrum that chooses not to recognize or acknowledge this.

MaggieD said:
Under Obamacare, one can have a deductible as high as $2,000. Yet Another White House Obamacare Delay: Out-Of-Pocket Caps Waived Until 2015 - Forbes

What "fake plans"?
Click to expand...

The limitation of deductibles to $2,000 (for an individual, $4,000 for families) is only for employer-sponsored coverage in the small group market.

In the individual market, which is what the new marketplaces are, deductibles can be higher if that's what people want to buy. Bronze plans in California's exchange, for instance, generally have $5,000 deductibles.
 
imagep said:
Yup, conservatives often argue against ideas that are actually conservative ideas. Thats why I post my lean as "independent", I don't want to feel tied into any particular political platform, especially when the platforms are almost random sets of ideas that are often self defeating or seemingly go against what they claim they are for.

The concept of the insurance mandate IS a conservative idea, thunk up by conservatives, and advocated by conservatives, until democrats said "sure, thats a reasonable compromise, let's do it", then suddenly it became a bad idea to most conservatives.

It's a crazy world we live in. I prefer my fantasy world.
Click to expand...

I'm not against an individual mandate, but I am against restriction of medical underwriting. If you force certain people to pay higher premiums then what they would get in an unrestricted market place AND force them to buy health insurance.... then yeah suddenly I'm against individual mandates.
 
274ina said:
All plans allowed must meet the standards. And they better enforce it.

Paying the fine is for NOT having insurance, not for not having a new plan.
Click to expand...

But I like my old plan better. It fits me perfectly. Why should I be forced to take something that isn't as good (for me) as what I already had? Why should I be forced to drop something that was already working for me well? I don't mind paying the fine, as long as it's a modest and affordable fine, but I will be furious if I am no longer allowed to keep my current plan.
 
Greenbeard said:
Not so ironic. The ACA is full of ideas from across the ideological spectrum. There just happens to be a certain slice of that spectrum that chooses not to recognize or acknowledge this.
Click to expand...

The irony is more or less that Democrats, without meaning to in my opinion, created a healthcare model that favors insurance plans that they don't agree with.
 
MaggieD said:
I didn't realize Democrats were steadfastly against even $1,000 deductibles. Bastards.

It is the lack of deductibles that has driven healthcare through the roof. The idea that our own politicians object to market forces is scandalous. But.

Why am I not surprised?
Click to expand...

I agree. Republicans need to stop being idiots when it comes to Obamacare and trying to repeal the entire thing wholesome. Instead, they need to try to repeal select provisions of it. Like the cap on deductibles for example.
 
imagep said:
Sure, I've seen those plans. But thats not the type of plan that we are talking about. Those are backwards plans.

My major medical policy has a $5000 deductable, it then pays 60% up to a $10,000 out of pocket per year expense. So if I have a $50 doctors visit, I pay for that out of pocket (from my HSA). If I have a $500 doctor bill, I also pay for that out of pocket. If I have a $5000 total annual medical expense, I pay for that out of pocket. All of that is less than the cost of a typical low deductable insurance policy annually.

If I have a $10000 annual health care expense, then I have to pay $5000 plus 40% of the extra five thousand, so that would be $7000 total, which is still less than the cost of my old 80/20 plan with a $500 deductable and $20 copay.

if I have a $500,000 medical bill, then I pay exactly $10k, which is about the same as I was paying for my "good" policy, before I switched to my high deductible policy, so including the cost of my high deductable, I would spend a grand total of $11,800 that year. If I had kept my old policy, I would have spent $500 (the deductable), plus 20% of $500k which is $100,000, plus $9600 on the policy, totaling $110,100. Now THATS a cost that I can't afford.
Click to expand...

Those "backward" plans are all people are offered. So they have no choice.

And you plan is not affordable to 90% of American workers. $10,000 or $500,000 bill is the same. Not payable.
 
ReformCollege said:
The irony is more or less that Democrats, without meaning to in my opinion, created a healthcare model that favors insurance plans that they don't agree with.
Click to expand...

The ACA explicitly tags out-of-pocket limits for insurance plans to the existing standards for high deductible health plans that can be paired with HSAs. I don't think it really gets more deliberate than that.

HDHPs are explicitly allowed (and in some ways encouraged) by the law. People, of course, can also choose to buy more generous plans with lower deductibles if they want. There's a whole spectrum of plans available in the new marketplaces. But people with low incomes who choose silver plans (which probably have deductibles around $2,000) can get financial assistance that effectively scales their cost-sharing to their income so that, while they're still encouraged to shop wisely, the burden is not unmanageable.

Like I said, the ACA crosses ideological boundaries and that isn't an accident. It incorporates ideas from all over the place.
 
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