The number of men enrolled in college this year trails women by record highs, part of a nationwide education gap. Nobody wants to talk about it.

[RealityChecker]

Ah! Men are victims! That's what you are writing.

So the Duke lacrosse players falsely accused of raping a black woman stripper were not victims then? The better qualified men applying for tenure track professorships who were systematically rejected by AA zealots who demanded (behind closed doors) less qualified women (and especially minority women) be hired in their stead was just in your opinion?

All of history is basically men being toxic to women. And to each other.

Actually history shows some men treating women very badly but not all men. Many men risked their lives to defend or protect women from the bad behavior of other men.

Women have been treated like 2nd class citizens for most of history.

Seems I recall back when I was drafted during the height of the Vietnam war women were not even obligated to register for the draft, let alone required to risk their lives fighting often unjust wars. Was that men being treated better than women in your opinion?

And it's not payback, it's just you feeling this: "after a lifetime of privilege, equality feels like oppression." You are just projecting all those negative emotions that you are feeling. I'm not.

Really, I had a life of privilege? Was I privileged when a drunk woman drove off the road and hit me while walking from behind leaving me with multiple injuries including a serious spinal cord injury? I have no problem with equal treatment of men and women but as far as I know I never was given a job I was less qualified instead of a better qualified women applicant. So tell me where is the evidence that I was privileged?

Your sob story doesnt work IMO. And look at you inventing crap about me, none of which I've displayed in this thread until this post...dont mistake my dismissal of YOUR post for an opinion of all men.

All I stated was that: "Lursa seems a tad too eager to blame her own apparent hostility and discrimination against men as perhaps some kind of "social justice". Whatever you call the growing hostility toward men and especially white men on college campuses it is hard to imagine it is not a contributing factor to why the % of white men is declining on most college campuses." RC

Seems your response is rather consistent with my take of your eagerness to condemn any man who happens to question you claims that men are privileged and women are still being oppressed by men so men need to shut up and support the growing hostility and discriminatory treatment against them. Your "intersectionality" or faith in "social justice" ideology is showing.

If men choose to reject higher education...that's their problem...lol you are using feelings of victimization as the reason. That's pathetic, who respects that? I

My point was that it is colleges that are rejecting and oppressing men and discriminating in favor of women. That is reality. Discrimination for or against individuals because of their gender and/or race/ethnicity is immoral. Deep down you must be aware your being a hypocrite and are angry I am pointing this out here. Your apparent support of the unfair and discriminatory treatment of men on colleges (and elsewhere) is what is pathetic IMO.

But dont forget...those are your opinions, not mine, I give men more credit.

Cry moar.

Not seeing much credit for my pointing out the rather obvious fact that men are all too often being treated unfairly on college campuses. That unfair treatment is likely one reason why today there are far fewer male than female students on colleges campuses. As I said you seem too eager to denigrate men when they question your dubious beliefs in what is and is not truth and justice.

 

[bomberfox]

I've posted many times over the DP years about the emergence of a two-year Associate of Applied Science as a marvelous opportunity for those drawn to hands-on careers, e.g. EMS, dental hygiene, radiology technology, network administration, fire science, law enforcement, and so on.

In my own longtime "ivory tower" observation, there are far too many students who are unprepared by their high school educations for academic rigor and who are enrolled, as once was I, for the wrong reasons. Too many have no interest whatsoever in learning for the sake of learning; they're enrolled because it's the "next step" in their parents' expectations or because a degree=money. A four-year institution should NOT be a glorified trade school, in my opinion.

One idea I wish the U.S. would embrace is a "gap year" between high school and college.

I know from experience and part of it is my fault i wasnt prepared even for college algebra. Fortunately my community college had a program that helped me catch up.

 

[Lursa]

So the Duke lacrosse players falsely accused of raping a black woman stripper were not victims then? The better qualified men applying for tenure track professorships who were systematically rejected by AA zealots who demanded (behind closed doors) less qualified women (and especially minority women) be hired in their stead was just in your opinion?

I know you only have a small number of incidents to support your victimization. Now multiply your Duke incident by 1000 and you have that history for women.

Actually history shows some men treating women very badly but not all men. Many men risked their lives to defend or protect women from the bad behavior of other men.

Actually, MOST history shows it and it was legal and even approved of. Until the 1900s in the US, women were still practically property, with many laws preventing us from birth control, opportunities, jobs, voting, the ability to make medical decisions, owning some property, etc.

Seems I recall back when I was drafted during the height of the Vietnam war women were not even obligated to register for the draft, let alone required to risk their lives fighting often unjust wars. Was that men being treated better than women in your opinion?

I object to men being drafted.

Really, I had a life of privilege? Was I privileged when a drunk woman drove off the road and hit me while walking from behind leaving me with multiple injuries including a serious spinal cord injury? I have no problem with equal treatment of men and women but as far as I know I never was given a job I was less qualified instead of a better qualified women applicant. So tell me where is the evidence that I was privileged?

How does your description of victimization affect this particular discussion?

Try reading the quote again. Try to actually understand it instead of continuing to picture yourself/men as victims.

All I stated was that: "Lursa seems a tad too eager to blame her own apparent hostility and discrimination against men as perhaps some kind of "social justice". Whatever you call the growing hostility toward men and especially white men on college campuses it is hard to imagine it is not a contributing factor to why the % of white men is declining on most college campuses." RC

That's their problem then, if they want to be snowflakes. Women had to face all that kind of hostility, resistance, discrimination from the 1940s after WW2 until the 1980s and even now. In colleges, in workplaces, in all opportunities. And what did we do? We persevered.

Cry moar.

Seems your response is rather consistent with my take of your eagerness to condemn any man who happens to question you claims that men are privileged and women are still being oppressed by men so men need to shut up and support the growing hostility and discriminatory treatment against them. Your "intersectionality" or faith in "social justice" ideology is showing.

That's their problem then, if they want to be snowflakes. Women had to face all that kind of hostility, resistance, discrimination from the 1940s after WW2 until the 1980s and even now. In colleges, in workplaces, in all opportunities. And what did we do? We persevered.

Cry moar.

My point was that it is colleges that are rejecting and oppressing men and discriminating in favor of women. That is reality. Discrimination for or against individuals because of their gender and/or race/ethnicity is immoral. Deep down you must be aware your being a hypocrite and are angry I am pointing this out here. Your apparent support of the unfair and discriminatory treatment of men on colleges (and elsewhere) is what is pathetic IMO.

Please source that colleges are rejecting and oppressing men. Please source that colleges are discriminating against men.

Not seeing much credit for my pointing out the rather obvious fact that men are all too often being treated unfairly on college campuses. That unfair treatment is likely one reason why today there are far fewer male than female students on colleges campuses. As I said you seem too eager to denigrate men when they question your dubious beliefs in what is and is not truth and justice.

That's their problem then, if they want to be snowflakes. Women had to face all that kind of "unfairness," hostility, resistance, discrimination from the 1940s after WW2 until the 1980s and even now. In colleges, in workplaces, in all opportunities. And what did we do? We persevered.

Cry moar.

 

[noonereal]

the growing systemic discrimination and hostility toward young white men seen on college campuses that is likely one of the main reason their numbers are declining on most college campuses. That appears to be reality.

Don't be naive.

This is white trash making no attempt to better themselves because Donny told them they were great as is.

 

[Cynical]

But he did make a point tho...relating to the OP. It does seem to be serving females much better. Why?


I agree.

What exactly seems to be serving the female students much better?

 

[Lursa]

What exactly seems to be serving the female students much better?

Your claim that it is. And your claim that it's not serving men.

 

[Cynical]

Your claim that it is. And your claim that it's not serving men.

I've made no such claims about anything serving anyone better. The only thing I said is that men have other professional opportunities that they choose to pursue outside of 4 year academic college. Let's see a statistic that includes trade school as well.

 

[nota bene]

I know from experience and part of it is my fault i wasnt prepared even for college algebra. Fortunately my community college had a program that helped me catch up.

I find your acknowledgment of your own responsibility refreshing. Kudos.

I can't speak to other school districts, but in mine when a friend was teaching math at one of the high schools, the lowest grade that could be assigned was a 50--meaning that even if a student did zero work and had earned a zero, he or she could escape with a diploma. And then be enrolled in a "developmental" (remedial) match course at the two-year institution (even if attending the local four-year one) and do so poorly that this not-for-credit course would have to be repeated, to the fury of the parents paying for it.

 

[Lursa]

I've made no such claims about anything serving anyone better. The only thing I said is that men have other professional opportunities that they choose to pursue outside of 4 year academic college. Let's see a statistic that includes trade school as well.

Correct...it was the other poster that you quoted (or questioned my responses to) that did. My bad.

So please clarify those first.

As for your question, I dont remember challenging it and see no need to verify it.

 

[Cynical]

Correct...it was the other poster that you quoted (or questioned my responses to) that did. My bad.

So please clarify those first.

As for your question, I dont remember challenging it and see no need to verify it.

Let me put it like this. The statistics posted in the OP should not at all be surprising. More and more women are entering the workforce than ever before. Very few women today are viewing getting married shortly after high school as their means to a stable economic life. Most of the motivated women by and large view the four year college degree route as the means for a good job. Hence the steady increase in women going to college over the past few decades.

Economically motivated men on the other hand have been also attracted to trades and from what I can gather that trend has been increasing over the past few years especially as one considers the outrageous costs of the four year college degree as well as having to spend another 4 years of one's life sitting in classes learning a lot of useless information.

What if I made the following thread:
"Women make up less than 10% of Americans in trade schools"
What kind of responses do you think I would get?

 

[PeacefulWarrior]

A Generation of American Men Give Up on College: ‘I Just Feel Lost’

The number of men enrolled at two- and four-year colleges has fallen behind women by record levels, in a widening education gap across the U.S.

www.wsj.com

Women make up almost 60% of college students.


"In the next few years, two women will earn a college degree for every man."

Hmmmm. Interesting.

TBH I prefer academia over the "real world". I would go back for my Masters right now, but I'd basically only be doing it for shits and giggles and its pretty expensive so I don't think I'll spend the money on that. No real point anyway since I don't even work in that field.
But I enjoy academia, I'd probably make a pretty good professor actually. I don't have a PhD but there's lots of adjunct profs. that aren't doctorate.

I wonder why the difference in male/female is growing like that?

 

[Lursa]

Let me put it like this. The statistics posted in the OP should not at all be surprising. More and more women are entering the workforce than ever before. Very few women today are viewing getting married shortly after high school as their means to a stable economic life. Most of the motivated women by and large view the four year college degree route as the means for a good job. Hence the steady increase in women going to college over the past few decades.

Seems fine. You dont explain why men are no longer choosing college, but that's fine.

Economically motivated men on the other hand have been also attracted to trades and from what I can gather that trend has been increasing over the past few years especially as one considers the outrageous costs of the four year college degree as well as having to spend another 4 years of one's life sitting in classes learning a lot of useless information.

Smart IMO. For women as well. Trades and other skills can provide excellent careers. Not everyone is cut out for higher ed. Nor should they be expected to be.

What if I made the following thread:
"Women make up less than 10% of Americans in trade schools"
What kind of responses do you think I would get?

I wouldnt object. It's a neutral statement. If I cared, I'd ask for a source for the %.

Related: how do you classify careers as cops, EMTs, firefighters, nurses? Are they trades? Just curious.

 

[Cynical]

Seems fine. You dont explain why men are no longer choosing college, but that's fine.

I did provide some speculation on that in my post. I think more and more people are looking at the costs and time one has to spend getting a four year college degree and are deciding it's not worth it. I would also add that since the decline listed in the OP is 71% men is because men are more willing to choose the other options available like trade school.

 

[Cynical]

I wouldnt object. It's a neutral statement. If I cared, I'd ask for a source for the %.

Related: how do you classify careers as cops, EMTs, firefighters, nurses? Are they trades? Just curious.

I couldn't find one up to date source on that statistic. From reading through a few different sources I feel pretty comfortable saying over 90% of Americans in trade schools are men. Throughout the years between my homes and cars I’ve never seen any women doing any of that kind of work. I would assume many others have similar experiences regarding that.

With respect to your question about the other careers you mentioned and whether to classify them as trades? I don't believe they are as trades traditionally are described as skilled hands-on labor involved in building or fixing things often using various tools.

 

[Lursa]

I did provide some speculation on that in my post. I think more and more people are looking at the costs and time one has to spend getting a four year college degree and are deciding it's not worth it. I would also add that since the decline listed in the OP is 71% men is because men are more willing to choose the other options available like trade school.

Yeah...and I agreed with it.

 

[Lursa]

I couldn't find one up to date source on that statistic. From reading through a few different sources I feel pretty comfortable saying over 90% of Americans in trade schools are men. Throughout the years between my homes and cars I’ve never seen any women doing any of that kind of work. I would assume many others have similar experiences regarding that.

Great. Is there a problem with that?

With respect to your question about the other careers you mentioned and whether to classify them as trades? I don't believe they are as trades traditionally are described as skilled hands-on labor involved in building or fixing things often using various tools.

Ok thanks. How would you classify them? For the most part they do not require higher education, altho nursing does.

And women are well represented in all of them, and that number is growing.

 

[Cynical]

Great. Is there a problem with that?

Not at all as far as I'm concerned. By and large women have little interests in trades and that's their prerogative. Nor should anyone think it's a problem that men are choosing other career paths than 4 year college, but that seems to be the position of the OP.

PS - I'm not claiming you do.

 

[CaughtInThe]

High School is what you make of it. One of my kids just skated by. Another got straight As and had many more options.

And I preached the same things to both. I then modified my approach. Then my wife modified her approach. And he still skated by.

Some kids just have to learn the hard way.

 

[Fiddytree]

I've posted many times over the DP years about the emergence of a two-year Associate of Applied Science as a marvelous opportunity for those drawn to hands-on careers, e.g. EMS, dental hygiene, radiology technology, network administration, fire science, law enforcement, and so on.

In my own longtime "ivory tower" observation, there are far too many students who are unprepared by their high school educations for academic rigor and who are enrolled, as once was I, for the wrong reasons. Too many have no interest whatsoever in learning for the sake of learning; they're enrolled because it's the "next step" in their parents' expectations or because a degree=money. A four-year institution should NOT be a glorified trade school, in my opinion.

One idea I wish the U.S. would embrace is a "gap year" between high school and college.

Sure is.

What I have always found fascinating though is that the conversation about career and education expectations can be vastly different depending on your demographics. Students with disabilities, for instance, are far less likely to enter any post-secondary institution of any sort than the general population, but if they are anywhere, they tend to be in the trades and community colleges. Where they have historically been shut out has been in four year institutions and graduate programs.

So I have spent much of my life encouraging more students to enter the four year programs, because we have devalued the ability for those students to complete those programs and have a fulfilling life. Overall, I want young people to get into careers that provide a fulfilling life, no matter how they achieve that. As a student with a disability, I was funneled into those STEM jobs (at best), but if you're someone who either can't do that because of their disability (me) or because that's really not something you want to do (also me), your only other socially-instructed career path was pushing grocery carts, being a Walmart greeter, janitors or maids. That's what you're taught from the time you get diagnosed till you graduate.

Likewise, the "gap year" thing is also interesting. It's become more fashionable for people without disabilities to talk about the gap year serving a functional purpose for young people. When I was growing up there was some discussion about that, but there was also discussion about how you have to strike while the iron was hot, because people get used to not being in school. At the time, too, it was stressed that it may be even more difficult as a student with a disability (for a variety of reasons). Nevertheless, when I was researching this the data shows that the percentage of young people entering post-secondary institutions substantially increased for one cohort over a five year period. Meaning, many students with disabilities took far longer than people without disabiliities to enter post-secondary education, but it was important to note how many of them did it 2-5 years after leaving high school rather than the first fall after they graduated. Now...however, in my state the data is bleaker on that front, with the vast majority of recently-former students with disabilities entering the workforce without any postsecondary education at all. Yeah, the money isn't all that bad now, but cost of living is still high and the good energy sector jobs still want post-secondary education credentials! Our post-secondary numbers plummeted over the last decade.