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The No-Fly Zone Delusion in Ukraine

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An analysis in regards to the reality of the situation in Ukraine.

In Ukraine, Good Intentions Can’t Redeem a Bad Idea

Faced with a brutal Russian invasion of Ukraine, many Americans and Europeans are pushing for their governments to provide as much military support as possible to Kyiv. One idea that a number of prominent observers and commentators have seized on is the establishment of a no-fly zone—that is, using force (or the threat of force) to keep Russian aircraft out of some segment of the airspace above Ukraine, in order to prevent Russian air strikes on Ukrainian military forces and civilians in the area. Creating such a zone would involve a combination of day-to-day intelligence collection, observations from the ground, rotating aerial patrols with large numbers of planes and pilots—and, crucially, the threat to physically prevent adversary aircraft from entering the designated airspace.

Proposals for a no-fly zone are inspired by the concept's application by U.S. and NATO forces in Iraq after the Persian Gulf War, in Bosnia in the mid-1990s, and in Libya during its civil war in 2011. Notably, those cases did not involve imposing an exclusion zone on a major power; instead, they featured a mighty great power, the United States, dictating demands to weak local adversaries that were in no position to contest them. There are no examples of something called a “no-fly zone” being imposed on a major power outside the context of battles for air superiority in regular warfare.

The idea of establishing a no-fly zone reflects a humane urge to relieve Ukrainian suffering and to "do something" in the face of Russian aggression. But doing so would risk stumbling into a far worse tragedy. This applies even to a limited no-fly zone of the kind floated earlier this week by more than two dozen experts and former officials—an idea that may sound reasonable but is in fact profoundly reckless.


Full analysis: https://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles/ukraine/2022-03-10/no-fly-zone-delusion
 
An analysis in regards to the reality of the situation in Ukraine.

In Ukraine, Good Intentions Can’t Redeem a Bad Idea

Faced with a brutal Russian invasion of Ukraine, many Americans and Europeans are pushing for their governments to provide as much military support as possible to Kyiv. One idea that a number of prominent observers and commentators have seized on is the establishment of a no-fly zone—that is, using force (or the threat of force) to keep Russian aircraft out of some segment of the airspace above Ukraine, in order to prevent Russian air strikes on Ukrainian military forces and civilians in the area. Creating such a zone would involve a combination of day-to-day intelligence collection, observations from the ground, rotating aerial patrols with large numbers of planes and pilots—and, crucially, the threat to physically prevent adversary aircraft from entering the designated airspace.

Proposals for a no-fly zone are inspired by the concept's application by U.S. and NATO forces in Iraq after the Persian Gulf War, in Bosnia in the mid-1990s, and in Libya during its civil war in 2011. Notably, those cases did not involve imposing an exclusion zone on a major power; instead, they featured a mighty great power, the United States, dictating demands to weak local adversaries that were in no position to contest them. There are no examples of something called a “no-fly zone” being imposed on a major power outside the context of battles for air superiority in regular warfare.

The idea of establishing a no-fly zone reflects a humane urge to relieve Ukrainian suffering and to "do something" in the face of Russian aggression. But doing so would risk stumbling into a far worse tragedy. This applies even to a limited no-fly zone of the kind floated earlier this week by more than two dozen experts and former officials—an idea that may sound reasonable but is in fact profoundly reckless.


Full analysis: https://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles/ukraine/2022-03-10/no-fly-zone-delusion
Indeed,
NATO Enforced No-Fly Zone = Spectacularly Bad Idea!

Any effort to enforce a no-fly zone over Ukraine will effectively a declaration of war against Russia. This is easily explained by former Ambassador to Russia Michael McFaul in a segment or two of this interview. Don't even bother with the show opening - the first 2-1/2 minutes. The meat of the interview begins about 2:30 and continues in the following segment.



 
It appears to have completely lost sight of the aggression suffered by Russians and Russian speaking people in the New Republics over a period of eight years and with total disregard to the 2014 Minsk agreements .

Up to 15,00 killed , let alone billions in damage .

Different story when the terrorist state of Gaza is rebuked .

It also skirts over the effect of the US installing double figures of Bio Labs on Ukrainian territory, let alone the intent to progress Ukraine toward NATO membership --a red line which Russia has warned on innumerable occasions must never be crossed.

All a bit like sticking out your chin every day for many years and then whining and bleating over eventually taking a good hiding .

Thanks US for your imbecilic provocations in order to deflect from other matters .
 
The probability of the United States of America attempting to establish a 'no fly zone' over Ukraine using the United States Air Force to do so is, at this juncture, effectively zero.

Regards, stay safe 'n well 'n remember the Big 5.
 
An analysis in regards to the reality of the situation in Ukraine.

In Ukraine, Good Intentions Can’t Redeem a Bad Idea

Faced with a brutal Russian invasion of Ukraine, many Americans and Europeans are pushing for their governments to provide as much military support as possible to Kyiv. One idea that a number of prominent observers and commentators have seized on is the establishment of a no-fly zone—that is, using force (or the threat of force) to keep Russian aircraft out of some segment of the airspace above Ukraine, in order to prevent Russian air strikes on Ukrainian military forces and civilians in the area. Creating such a zone would involve a combination of day-to-day intelligence collection, observations from the ground, rotating aerial patrols with large numbers of planes and pilots—and, crucially, the threat to physically prevent adversary aircraft from entering the designated airspace.

Proposals for a no-fly zone are inspired by the concept's application by U.S. and NATO forces in Iraq after the Persian Gulf War, in Bosnia in the mid-1990s, and in Libya during its civil war in 2011. Notably, those cases did not involve imposing an exclusion zone on a major power; instead, they featured a mighty great power, the United States, dictating demands to weak local adversaries that were in no position to contest them. There are no examples of something called a “no-fly zone” being imposed on a major power outside the context of battles for air superiority in regular warfare.

The idea of establishing a no-fly zone reflects a humane urge to relieve Ukrainian suffering and to "do something" in the face of Russian aggression. But doing so would risk stumbling into a far worse tragedy. This applies even to a limited no-fly zone of the kind floated earlier this week by more than two dozen experts and former officials—an idea that may sound reasonable but is in fact profoundly reckless.


Full analysis: https://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles/ukraine/2022-03-10/no-fly-zone-delusion
The reality is that to have a no fly zone requires total control of the airspace and much control on the ground. We have neither. It would be totally unenforceable

Aside from an act of war it totally unrealistic.
 
Does anyone know, or has anyone heard if Russia has declared the skies over Ukraine as a "no fly zone"?

Can the United States or any other NATO country fly in supplies etc? From the west obviously.

We should be executing something like the Berlin air drops to help with humanitarian needs at a minimum.
 
It appears to have completely lost sight of the aggression suffered by Russians and Russian speaking people in the New Republics over a period of eight years and with total disregard to the 2014 Minsk agreements .

Up to 15,00 killed , let alone billions in damage .

Different story when the terrorist state of Gaza is rebuked .

It also skirts over the effect of the US installing double figures of Bio Labs on Ukrainian territory, let alone the intent to progress Ukraine toward NATO membership --a red line which Russia has warned on innumerable occasions must never be crossed.

All a bit like sticking out your chin every day for many years and then whining and bleating over eventually taking a good hiding .

Thanks US for your imbecilic provocations in order to deflect from other matters .

Wow, some Russian trolls don't even try to pretend not to be Russian trolls.
 
Can the United States or any other NATO country fly in supplies etc? From the west obviously.

We should be executing something like the Berlin air drops to help with humanitarian needs at a minimum.
Convoys of weapons are transiting Poland, Slovakia, Romania (since Hungary refused to allow transports of weapons).

Humanitarian help is also being sent to assist Ukraine via these corridors. Aside from the EU government that is helping with millions, citizens from those countries are helping too. Thousands line up at the border to help.

So NATO, US, and the west is helping Ukraine. Risking nuclear war or an insurgent war is not help. Can you imagine what unrest will be in Europe if the refugee crisis escalades ? Poland already said there is no more room in some cities.

Diplomacy is help, find a deal to get them out of western Ukraine or else is a high risk of russians breaching and installing a puppet government in Kyiv. Once the FSB gets into the political system, is hard to get them out.

My 5th time sharing this video :D, a reasonable position away from other emotional outbursts:

 
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The only way to defeat the Russians is to kill the Russians. A nuclear exchange in the very near future is more likely than not. Check out the Doomsday Clock.
 
It appears to have completely lost sight of the aggression suffered by Russians and Russian speaking people in the New Republics over a period of eight years and with total disregard to the 2014 Minsk agreements .

Up to 15,00 killed , let alone billions in damage .

Different story when the terrorist state of Gaza is rebuked .

It also skirts over the effect of the US installing double figures of Bio Labs on Ukrainian territory, let alone the intent to progress Ukraine toward NATO membership --a red line which Russia has warned on innumerable occasions must never be crossed.

All a bit like sticking out your chin every day for many years and then whining and bleating over eventually taking a good hiding .

Thanks US for your imbecilic provocations in order to deflect from other matters .
The US has not actively pushed for NATO membership for Ukraine, nor would it matter considering that unanimous consent is required to join NATO and other member states have been very explicit about their position on the matter. Nor is there any evidence that there are bioweapons research labs in Ukraine or that the US had anything to do with it.
 
The only way to defeat the Russians is to kill the Russians. A nuclear exchange in the very near future is more likely than not. Check out the Doomsday Clock.
So what is stopping you to go into Ukraine and put on the uniform?

Zelensky removed the visa, pays you around 2,000$ and they even have a great website to sign a contract.

- > I think I will stick with economic sanctions which might lead to the average "Ivan" to revolt in Russia. People are loyal as long as they have something in their pocket.

Russians have been through this before, the Tsar times.
 
Convoys of weapons are transiting Poland, Slovakia, Romania (since Hungary refused to allow transports of weapons).

Humanitarian help is also being sent to assist Ukraine via these corridors. Aside from the EU government that is helping with millions, citizens from those countries are helping too. Thousands line up at the border to help.
That is good. I assumed this to be the case.

What I was specifically asking if anyone knew, is if ANY other planes can use Ukranian airspace, or is Russia enforcing a no-fly zone of it's own?

So NATO, US, and the west is helping Ukraine. Risking nuclear war or an insurgent war is not help. Can you imagine what unrest will be in Europe if the refugee crisis escalades ? Poland already said there is no more room in some cities.
To be clear, I am NOT calling for a NATO imposed "no-fly" zone.

Diplomacy is help, find a deal to get them out of western Ukraine or else is a high risk of russians breaching and installing a puppet government in Kyiv. Once the FSB gets into the political system, is hard to get them out.
I agree that diplomacy is key here, but it seems Russia's demands are mostly non-starters.
 
So what is stopping you to go into Ukraine and put on the uniform?

Zelensky removed the visa, pays you around 2,000$ and they even have a great website to sign a contract.

- > I think I will stick with economic sanctions which might lead to the average "Ivan" to revolt in Russia. People are loyal as long as they have something in their pocket.

Russians have been through this before, the Tsar times.
Where do you think I am writing from?!!
 
Where do you think I am writing from?!!
I have respect for idealogues that practice what they preach.

I am a practical person, don't like theories. So if you are there fighting, good for you. Just be careful with the contracts, I heard they don't make it clear that you are singing for an extended time.

The economic warfare however which I fully support is unprecedented that is why Putin is trying to make the internet as in North Korea in my view. Today they blocked all VPN access.

In my opinion he is starting to fear internal unrest which is the worst nightmare for an authoritarian.
 
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Any effort to enforce a no-fly zone over Ukraine will effectively a declaration of war against Russia.
Then i guess more civilians will die.

But hey...at least we won't be "escalating things" with Russia, right?
 
Not our problem
I had no idea you hated the Ukrainian people that much. I'm sure Putzin is looking for guys like you who don't care about innocent lives for his slaughter army.
 
I had no idea you hated the Ukrainian people that much. I'm sure Putzin is looking for guys like you who don't care about innocent lives for his slaughter army.
Not my problem


They are killing innocent people all over the world

Also not my problem
 
Then i guess more civilians will die.
Yep - they're bound to. Just like civilians that die in armed conflict everywhere else in the world where we don't intervene militarily. And much more importantly, just like civilians that die in armed conflict everywhere else in the world where we do intervene militarily!

"No one knows with certainty how many people have been killed and wounded in Iraq since the 2003 United States invasion. However, we know that between 184,382 and 207,156 civilians have died from direct war related violence caused by the U.S., its allies, . . . . "


The biggest differences of course are, it's okay if they die if they're not white Europeans, it's okay if they die if they're Muslims, it's okay if WE are the ones causing their deaths, and most important of all, it's okay if those deaths not called to our attention, day-in and day-out, in every broadcast news feed. Then I guess we can forget about them . . . . right?
But hey...at least we won't be "escalating things" with Russia, right?
Correct. And THAT is what's most important!
 
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