The next Zimmerman (almost)[W:65]

[FederalRepublic]

Re: The next Zimmerman (almost)

You are still not getting it. I'll try one more time. These are two separate issues.

Issue 1 Behavior
First of all no, I don't think that what these kids actually did was all that bad. I certainly would not make the assumption that someone who littered was destined to end up in prison. ( That's actually so ridiculous it is almost laughable) Nice effort on passing the racist hot potato to me but .... I don't think so. I think that assuming you have the authority to parent these kids, are qualified to parent these kids, or that they are not getting it at home is arrogant as hell. Tolerating inappropriate behavior from kids that are not your own is not something I would do. I just don't think that the behavior in this situation called for it.

So what you're saying is that these kids' behavior was not inappropriate, in your view. I don't know how you'd come that conclusion, but it explains your reaction to the story.

Issue 2 Racially influenced assumptions
Again, he added assumptions to where these kids were headed in life, how they were raised, what they needed etc., that were based in racial stereotypes. I stand by that and I am not the only one who got the same read on that part.

I understand you're not the only one who got the same read. I'm not the only one with mine either. Kids who don't have a positive adult influence in their lives are more likely to go down the wrong path. Black kids find themselves in that situation more often than other ethnic backgrounds. That's not an assumption. You & I didn't create that situation, but if we are to help, what should we do? Stand by and wait for someone else to do it? Personally, I'd rather not wait until it becomes the job of law enforcement

 

[opendebate]

Re: The next Zimmerman (almost)

My point is it doesn't matter if he used the word black to describe them, or whatever, because analysis of the scenario doesn't rely in any way shape or form. It doesn't matter what the skin tone of anyone in the situation was, the outcome would remain the same based on the actions of the kid.

It doesn't matter whether or not Mathematician made this about race, because it is incredibly simple to analyze this case without considering race. However, you have continued to keep this issue going, and that is the only reason we're still talking about race.

This is where we are my friend, this story was made about race by the OP. I thought race should have been irrelevant and challenged Maths inclusion of it and the subsequent racial stereotyping that peppered this story. He did not just use the word black, there was much more content that referenced race than that. If you fail to see the racial elements that he made front and center of this story I don't know what to say anymore.

If you would like to shift gears and make this about the disrespectful behavior of all teen boys (a derailment) and remove the element of race, that is a different conversation I am fine with having.

 

[opendebate]

Re: The next Zimmerman (almost)

My point is it doesn't matter if he used the word black to describe them, or whatever, because analysis of the scenario doesn't rely in any way shape or form. It doesn't matter what the skin tone of anyone in the situation was, the outcome would remain the same based on the actions of the kid.

It doesn't matter whether or not Mathematician made this about race, because it is incredibly simple to analyze this case without considering race. However, you have continued to keep this issue going, and that is the only reason we're still talking about race.

This is where we are my friend, this story was made about race by the OP. I thought race should have been irrelevant and challenged Maths inclusion of it and the subsequent racial stereotyping that peppered this story. He did not just use the word black, there was much more content that referenced race than that. If you fail to see the racial elements that he made front and center of this story I don't know what to say anymore.

If you would like to shift gears and make this about the disrespectful behavior of all teen boys (a derailment) and remove the element of race, that is a different conversation I am fine with having.

 

[Mathematician]

Re: The next Zimmerman (almost)

Issue 1 Behavior
First of all no, I don't think that what these kids actually did was all that bad. I certainly would not make the assumption that someone who littered was destined to end up in prison. ( That's actually so ridiculous it is almost laughable) Nice effort on passing the racist hot potato to me but .... I don't think so. I think that assuming you have the authority to parent these kids, are qualified to parent these kids, or that they are not getting it at home is arrogant as hell. Tolerating inappropriate behavior from kids that are not your own is not something I would do. I just don't think that the behavior in this situation called for it.

I'm still baffled by how much you consider continuous disrespectful actions normal. Are you in an abusive relationship or something? Did I say they were destined to go to prison? I was trying to get it through their heads that they're going to have a hard time getting out of the ghetto if they keep up their behavior. You're doing some pretty darn wishful thinking if you think the kids not being parented well are going to suddenly figure out how to act on their own. Furthermore, parents don't set all of the rules. There are things called laws, such as one called littering.

Issue 2 Racially influenced assumptions
Again, he added assumptions to where these kids were headed in life, how they were raised, what they needed etc., that were based in racial stereotypes. I stand by that and I am not the only one who got the same read on that part.

If I stated what I did to just some random black kid, that would be racial stereotyping. Criticizing a black kid for acting inappropriately and letting them know where that behavior is likely to lead them is a different story.

 

[opendebate]

Re: The next Zimmerman (almost)

You're right that it's about race. Where you're wrong is that you think I'm criticizing them because of their race. I'm trying to teach them that their behavior is what is holding back so many blacks from prospering. As I already stated, my friends and I aren't going to hire, tutor or help anyone who acts like this. You're lying to yourself if you think this type of behavior isn't most common among blacks.

I'm saying you are assigning additional blame for things that you have no way of knowing about these kids and that they are nothing more than racial stereotypes. You can stop at the behavior and judge it unacceptable if you chose but to go beyond that and talk about how poorly they were raised, or that they are gonna end up stuck in the ghetto or whatever...has no basis in anything other than your own prejudice.

 

[opendebate]

Re: The next Zimmerman (almost)

Do me a favor. Try ordering the music genres according to what percentage of the songs would be reasonably deemed a negative influence and tell me where rap falls on your list.

So what books do you wan to ban?

 

[ThePlayDrive]

So I'm downtown at the basketball court just shooting around when a couple of black teens (16 or 17) I've seen a few times there arrive. Interestingly, their drink of choice was a cup of water from Starbucks loaded with packets of sugar they took. I mention the drink, because the first thing one does before wanting to shoot with me is pour four more packets of sugar into his drink and drop the empty packets right in the middle of the court. Before shooting again, I said to him with a stern tone "Excuse me, are you going to pick up your trash? There is a trash can right by where you entered." He picked up a few pieces, not quite all, crumpled them up and then I saw him drop it on the edge of the court. While this was incomplete, he at least got the message that I was annoyed by his sense of entitlement to litter.

Two minutes later he suggests playing a game called 50, which I accepted since I wanted to burn a few calories. Throughout two games, the same guy who was littering was spewing disrespectful remarks continuously, including insults every time I scored and perverted remarks at just about every female who was walking by and under the age of 40. After I won the first game, he takes out his cell phone with some pocket speakers, turns on some (c)rap thug music and says he's going to win the next game.

Getting increasingly annoyed at his disrespectful behavior, I picked up my game and smacked the ball pretty hard on a couple of blocks in the second game. With an attitude, he cries foul and says "nigga, cool yo azz." That's when I went off and told the kid that if he wants respect then he needs to show it. Avoiding profanity, I told him that everything about his behavior is going to make him destined to live in the ghetto if he keeps it up, recapping what he had done wrong. He says "I don't have to listen to this ****" and proceeds to leave. I told him to take his Starbucks cup with him, for which he replies "if you so worried about it then you do something about it."

Thinking it's over, I resume shooting around, only to have him dropkick my basketball as soon as I miss. Luckily, it stayed within the fence, so I walked over to get it. I noticed the other guy then wandering towards where my bag was, despite the fact that they were already by the exit, thus I walk over towards my bag as well. Low and behold, he immediately starts accusing me of only going towards my bag because he's black. I asked why in the heck he expected my to trust them near my things when his buddy had just attempted to punt my ball as far as he could. I resumed telling them their behavior was going to get them into trouble when the main punk then approaches wanting to fight.

While trying to get in my face and start a fight, he hilariously accuses me of trying to initiate contact for having my arm extended as I'm backing away. I warned him that if he threw any punches that I'd make sure he was arrested, especially since I didn't want any legal issues for an altercation with a minor. Then some teen girl he knew who was in the area tells him to cut it out. He tells me "you lucky she here" to which I reply "wow, such a gentleman."

Right after all this crap was over, I was thanking God I didn't become the next Zimmerman. Fortunately, had the situation escalated, I would have had an even more solid defense than Zimmerman. It turns out, in the adjacent playground, a father had been recording the event on his phone, which easily would have shown that I made attempts to avoid physical confrontation. Wanting to play basketball in a respectful atmosphere, I saw this as an opportunity to teach some teens the same points Bill O'Reilly has been trying to get across this past week about this culture. The kid clearly sees nothing wrong with disrespectful behavior. What more can I do to straighten out black youth besides adopting?

None of the characters in this story are sympathetic. The teen seems like an average teen douche with a short fuse. He also seems like a sexist given the comments you claim he made about women. You come across as an entitled racist adult with an unreasonable temper who should have known better than to engage with an immature teen.

Also, like others, I doubt this story is true. It sounds like a racist fantasy made up to support racist beliefs.

EDIT: Also, on the your question. It doesn't sound like you need to be concerned with "straightening out black youth" so much as you need to be concerned with straightening out yourself. And please, dear God, do not adopt a black child. I'm not even saying that to be snarky. I'm saying that because your attitudes towards black people are so unhealthy and hostile that a black child raised around them (and thus, internalizing them) would have serious issues with self-worth.

 

[Hypersonic]

Re: The next Zimmerman (almost)

LOL so it's "bad attitudes that causes poverty" that is such bogus bull crap.

 

[Hypersonic]

Re: The next Zimmerman (almost)

If I walk away then the neighborhood is dirtier than when I arrived and the teens clearly learn nothing.

Again how does this story relate to the Zimmerman case? I'm starting to think your story is a farce. I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt here. There are too many loop holes in your story and the only one who is quite foolish to defend you is repeter so I ask, how does this relate to the Zimmerman case?

 

[Mathematician]

Re: The next Zimmerman (almost)

So what books do you wan to ban?

Answer my music question first. This group we're debating listens to music significantly more frequently than they read. Heck, some of them can't even read.

 

[opendebate]

Re: The next Zimmerman (almost)

I'm still baffled by how much you consider continuous disrespectful actions normal. Are you in an abusive relationship or something? Did I say they were destined to go to prison? I was trying to get it through their heads that they're going to have a hard time getting out of the ghetto if they keep up their behavior. You're doing some pretty darn wishful thinking if you think the kids not being parented well are going to suddenly figure out how to act on their own. Furthermore, parents don't set all of the rules. There are things called laws, such as one called littering.

If I stated what I did to just some random black kid, that would be racial stereotyping. Criticizing a black kid for acting inappropriately and letting them know where that behavior is likely to lead them is a different story.

I didn't say the behaviors were okay, I said they were normal. Meaning that they didn't do anything to warrant jumping to the absurd conclusion that they were doomed to end up in prison. The idea that you are this worked up over littering is absolutely comical. What is it....a gateway crime or something??

Also, what made you think they even lived in the ghetto to begin with? You already established that you were not playing on a basketball court located in the "ghetto" right?

I don't know if I am expressing myself poorly or you are just not hearing. You all keep accusing me of saying things I am not say and you are making it about whether or not an adult should acknowledge and redirect a teen who is misbehaving but really, that's not what I was most concerned about. That is a separate conversation and one that demands no racial element. My concern here, once again, was these kids who you knew nothing about were assigned all of the stereotypes (warranted or not) applied to black youth. If you met their parents, saw where they lived, knew how they performed is school, whether or not they did drugs, etc., owned a weapon, were gang members maybe you would have more authority to make judgments. But based on the information you provided in this story you had nothing to go on besides that fact that they were black and they littered and spoke disrespectfully. I do not believe that if a white kid had littered and mouthed off that you would have made the same set of assumptions.

 

[Mathematician]

Re: The next Zimmerman (almost)

I'm saying you are assigning additional blame for things that you have no way of knowing about these kids and that they are nothing more than racial stereotypes. You can stop at the behavior and judge it unacceptable if you chose but to go beyond that and talk about how poorly they were raised, or that they are gonna end up stuck in the ghetto or whatever...has no basis in anything other than your own prejudice.

And I'm say that you're assigning a stereotype of someone who assigns stereotypes on me. For Christ's sake, I'm an educator and came from the ghetto myself! I'm trying to teach these kids because people like Dr. Carson and I know how to go from ghetto to doctorate degree. :roll:

 

[repeter]

Re: The next Zimmerman (almost)

This is where we are my friend, this story was made about race by the OP. I thought race should have been irrelevant and challenged Maths inclusion of it and the subsequent racial stereotyping that peppered this story. He did not just use the word black, there was much more content that referenced race than that. If you fail to see the racial elements that he made front and center of this story I don't know what to say anymore.

I said he used the word black to derisively include what you discuss here. The progression and outcome in the scenario is entirely independent of considerations of race.

Do you understand that? My entire point is, regardless of what anyone said, race is irrelevant

If you would like to shift gears and make this about the disrespectful behavior of all teen boys (a derailment) and remove the element of race, that is a different conversation I am fine with having.[/QUOTE]

It was hardly a derailment; it constitutes the profoundest portion of this thread, though for a short time before that was derailed. A few conclusions were reached, though I'm not so sure that the discussion was complete.

 

[repeter]

Re: The next Zimmerman (almost)

So what books do you wan to ban?

Asinine slippery-slope fallacy.

 

[Mathematician]

None of the characters in this story are sympathetic. The teen seems like an average teen douche with a short fuse. He also seems like a sexist given the comments you claim he made about women. You come across as an entitled racist adult with an unreasonable temper who should have known better than to engage with an immature teen.

An entitled racist, you say? Why am I not surprised to hear that from you?

N
Also, like others, I doubt this story is true. It sounds like a racist fantasy made up to support racist beliefs.

Believe what you want. eace

EDIT: Also, on the your question. It doesn't sound like you need to be concerned with "straightening out black youth" so much as you need to be concerned with straightening out yourself. And please, dear God, do not adopt a black child. I'm not even saying that to be snarky. I'm saying that because your attitudes towards black people are so unhealthy and hostile that a black child raised around them (and thus, internalizing them) would have serious issues with self-worth.

Don't worry about the adoption. We've all heard from Oscar about how negative of a reaction he has gotten from the black community for being seen with his adopted black kids, so I'll heed his warning.

 

[MarineTpartier]

Re: The next Zimmerman (almost)

Take a look at the martin and zim group and all the BS that flies around there to justify whatever narrative they are writung. Then there is the reality everyone lies about their confrontations to make themselves look good. Finally, there has to be about 90 percent BS on the internet. So yes, I have many reasons to doubt the sincerity of some guy on the internet. If you want to believe everything you read on the internet feel free, and i have a great deal on a bridge.

So, if you doubt the sincerity of some guy on the internet, why even post on this forum? Just move along with your life and pay no attention to this stuff.

 

[Mathematician]

Re: The next Zimmerman (almost)

LOL so it's "bad attitudes that causes poverty" that is such bogus bull crap.

Besides athletes and entertainers, how many people with disrespectful attitudes have you rise to a much higher status?

 

[Mathematician]

Re: The next Zimmerman (almost)

Again how does this story relate to the Zimmerman case? I'm starting to think your story is a farce. I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt here. There are too many loop holes in your story and the only one who is quite foolish to defend you is repeter so I ask, how does this relate to the Zimmerman case?

1. a non-black adult and black teen
2. adult tries to keep the neighborhood clear from trouble
3. teen calls the adult racial slurs
4. teen reacts aggressively when confronted
5. the left doubts the adult's testimony and calls him a racist

Do I need to go on?

 

[MarineTpartier]

So I'm downtown at the basketball court just shooting around when a couple of black teens (16 or 17) I've seen a few times there arrive. Interestingly, their drink of choice was a cup of water from Starbucks loaded with packets of sugar they took. I mention the drink, because the first thing one does before wanting to shoot with me is pour four more packets of sugar into his drink and drop the empty packets right in the middle of the court. Before shooting again, I said to him with a stern tone "Excuse me, are you going to pick up your trash? There is a trash can right by where you entered." He picked up a few pieces, not quite all, crumpled them up and then I saw him drop it on the edge of the court. While this was incomplete, he at least got the message that I was annoyed by his sense of entitlement to litter.

Two minutes later he suggests playing a game called 50, which I accepted since I wanted to burn a few calories. Throughout two games, the same guy who was littering was spewing disrespectful remarks continuously, including insults every time I scored and perverted remarks at just about every female who was walking by and under the age of 40. After I won the first game, he takes out his cell phone with some pocket speakers, turns on some (c)rap thug music and says he's going to win the next game.

Getting increasingly annoyed at his disrespectful behavior, I picked up my game and smacked the ball pretty hard on a couple of blocks in the second game. With an attitude, he cries foul and says "nigga, cool yo azz." That's when I went off and told the kid that if he wants respect then he needs to show it. Avoiding profanity, I told him that everything about his behavior is going to make him destined to live in the ghetto if he keeps it up, recapping what he had done wrong. He says "I don't have to listen to this ****" and proceeds to leave. I told him to take his Starbucks cup with him, for which he replies "if you so worried about it then you do something about it."

Thinking it's over, I resume shooting around, only to have him dropkick my basketball as soon as I miss. Luckily, it stayed within the fence, so I walked over to get it. I noticed the other guy then wandering towards where my bag was, despite the fact that they were already by the exit, thus I walk over towards my bag as well. Low and behold, he immediately starts accusing me of only going towards my bag because he's black. I asked why in the heck he expected my to trust them near my things when his buddy had just attempted to punt my ball as far as he could. I resumed telling them their behavior was going to get them into trouble when the main punk then approaches wanting to fight.

While trying to get in my face and start a fight, he hilariously accuses me of trying to initiate contact for having my arm extended as I'm backing away. I warned him that if he threw any punches that I'd make sure he was arrested, especially since I didn't want any legal issues for an altercation with a minor. Then some teen girl he knew who was in the area tells him to cut it out. He tells me "you lucky she here" to which I reply "wow, such a gentleman."

Right after all this crap was over, I was thanking God I didn't become the next Zimmerman. Fortunately, had the situation escalated, I would have had an even more solid defense than Zimmerman. It turns out, in the adjacent playground, a father had been recording the event on his phone, which easily would have shown that I made attempts to avoid physical confrontation. Wanting to play basketball in a respectful atmosphere, I saw this as an opportunity to teach some teens the same points Bill O'Reilly has been trying to get across this past week about this culture. The kid clearly sees nothing wrong with disrespectful behavior. What more can I do to straighten out black youth besides adopting?

Before realizing there were 35 pages of posts on this thread, I just knew it would be turned into "you're just trying to justify Zimmerman" or "this is a lie" or "you aren't telling the whole story". I just knew it. Then, on post 2 no less, it had already started. Sorry bro, but in the current racial environment in this country, if you are white and successful, you are the enemy. No two ways about it. No person of color, no matter that color, can do wrong right now. They are all victims of the white race. Do all of them feel this way? I'm sure they don't. I'm sure there are quite a few black, Hispanic, etc people that feel perfectly content with the way their life is. However, if you listen to the hatemongers of the world; your Sharptons and Jacksons, then you get a whole different picture. In turn, idiots like the ones who have said those things on this thread, buy into the crap those guys and the media are selling and you get some sort of official race barometer. Bravo to you for posting this because I'm sure you knew what was coming before you even posted it lol.

 

[Unitedwestand13]

Re: The next Zimmerman (almost)

Besides athletes and entertainers, how many people with disrespectful attitudes have you rise to a much higher status?

certain politicians

 

[Hypersonic]

Re: The next Zimmerman (almost)

Besides athletes and entertainers, how many people with disrespectful attitudes have you rise to a much higher status?

I'll use myself as an example.....

I grew up in Compton California during the height of the war between the Bloods and Crips. My whole family, well at least on my dad's side were in gangs. In elementary school I was in fist fights all the time. Shortly after the "Rodney King riots" my mother moved me to Arizona where I got into more fights due to encountering racist white kids. It was ironic I was never expelled. I channeled all my energy into basketball where I eventually became All-State and recruited by Division I colleges. My mother and I weren't poor, but we weren't wealthy either.

My point is you cannot associate attitudes with socioeconomic status. A lot of Americans today are poor due to a variety of factors and those that do arise out of their socioeconomic status it depends on whether they will themselves out of those factors. Some people remain complacent in their impoverished status because of some psychological and or social factors. How do you tell someone who has a foreclosed home that their bad attitude is the reason why their home was foreclosed?

 

[opendebate]

Re: The next Zimmerman (almost)

And I'm say that you're assigning a stereotype of someone who assigns stereotypes on me. For Christ's sake, I'm an educator and came from the ghetto myself! I'm trying to teach these kids because people like Dr. Carson and I know how to go from ghetto to doctorate degree. :roll:

That makes no sense. I am making statement referencing specifically what I saw you did here. Stating that in this instance your judgments in this story appear to racially based. I even mentioned in previous emails that I am not labeling you a racist, because I don't know enough about you or know you really at all and that would be unjustified given the limited information I have.

You did not answer my question. Were you playing ball in the ghetto? If not and if you did not know these kids well enough to know that's where they came from then what was that forecast based on?

 

[Hypersonic]

Before realizing there were 35 pages of posts on this thread, I just knew it would be turned into "you're just trying to justify Zimmerman" or "this is a lie" or "you aren't telling the whole story". I just knew it. Then, on post 2 no less, it had already started. Sorry bro, but in the current racial environment in this country, if you are white and successful, you are the enemy. No two ways about it. No person of color, no matter that color, can do wrong right now. They are all victims of the white race. Do all of them feel this way? I'm sure they don't. I'm sure there are quite a few black, Hispanic, etc people that feel perfectly content with the way their life is. However, if you listen to the hatemongers of the world; your Sharptons and Jacksons, then you get a whole different picture. In turn, idiots like the ones who have said those things on this thread, buy into the crap those guys and the media are selling and you get some sort of official race barometer. Bravo to you for posting this because I'm sure you knew what was coming before you even posted it lol.

Why do you guys (and I'm using a racial generalization here based on white respondents of this forum) keep using Jesse Jackson and Al sharpton as if they speak for the entire black community? They don't. They don't speak for me. They don't speak for the black student union at my university, nor do they speak for the blacks down the street from me. I've never seen these two men in my life so please stop with the mentioning of Jesse and Sharpton as if they are representatives of the black community. As for being seen as the enemy this is the media portrayal based on recent events, and is not a realistic representative of what is going on "in the streets." But if it makes you sleep better you can keep thinking this way.

 

[AlabamaPaul]

Why do you guys (and I'm using a racial generalization here based on white respondents of this forum) keep using Jesse Jackson and Al sharpton as if they speak for the entire black community? They don't. They don't speak for me. They don't speak for the black student union at my university, nor do they speak for the blacks down the street from me. I've never seen these two men in my life so please stop with the mentioning of Jesse and Sharpton as if they are representatives of the black community. As for being seen as the enemy this is the media portrayal based on recent events, and is not a realistic representative of what is going on "in the streets." But if it makes you sleep better you can keep thinking this way.

I wasn't aware my color was visible on the forum. Which option do I need to set to see another poster's color?

 

[Hypersonic]

Re: The next Zimmerman (almost)

1. a non-black adult and black teen
2. adult tries to keep the neighborhood clear from trouble
3. teen calls the adult racial slurs
4. teen reacts aggressively when confronted
5. the left doubts the adult's testimony and calls him a racist

Do I need to go on?

Regarding points #2 and #3

Starting with #2

When they arrived on the court why did you perceive them to be trouble? It's a public basketball court. Your first mistake was your perception off the back as you highlighted in your first sentence of them putting sugar that "they took" (I imagine you made the accusation they stole it without actually witnessing them stealing it).

Point #3

He called you a "nigga" which is not a reference to your particular ethnicity (as I mentioned in my other thread) in street lingo the term nigga is often referred to as a term of endearment and/or a reference in calling someone a "dude" "bro" "man" in colloquial terms. So that theory fails.

Point #5

Who called you a racist? where did I say you are a racist? Please quote me.

As far as aggression is concerned you were no better than them. Judging by how you narrated your own story I'm sure your tone was not monotone nor was it something that was empathetic. Rather I believe based on how you present yourself here that you had a commanding nature. You were also aggressive based on in your story how you became annoyed and decided to play harder, not because of your competitiveness, but because they annoyed you (I should have been a lawyer).