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The next Zimmerman (almost)[W:65]

Re: The next Zimmerman (almost)

But given the recent trend of threads regarding race I wouldn't see opendebate's acknowledgment of the "why you mention that..." an irrelevant inquiry.

That's irrelevant, not to mention it would be completely presumptuous for her to do that, and rather ironically prejudicial (if it is what she thought, but I've no idea).
 
Re: The next Zimmerman (almost)

What's not objective about rap music videos being negative?

The lyrics, the lifestyle they portray, etc.

But rap music has several genres within itself?

Here are subgenres of hip-hop/rap music

Alternative hip hop – Turntablism – Christian hip hop – Conscious hip hop – Experimental hip hop – Freestyle rap – Gangsta rap – Homo hop – Hardcore hip hop – Horrorcore – Instrumental hip hop – Mafioso rap – Nerdcore – Political hip hop – Baltimore club – Bounce – Brick City club – Chicano rap – Native American hip hop – Jerkin'

Reference:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hip_hop_music
 
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Re: The next Zimmerman (almost)

That's irrelevant, not to mention it would be completely presumptuous for her to do that, and rather ironically prejudicial (if it is what she thought, but I've no idea).

No it's not irrelevant. You have not demonstrated that it is irrelevant. It is quite relevant as I said given the recent trend of several threads highlighting about race. I believe in my recent post I mentioned how the bold comments and the name of the thread made me suspicious.
 
Re: The next Zimmerman (almost)

You're right, I am being defensive. You're assigning negative motivation to Math with no justification and I think you're being unfair and unreasonable. You've posted many times about the problems in the black community. Why do you assume someone has a racist motivation when they want to talk about a specific example? Inner city education is terrible because too many of the adults who run it write this kind of garbage off as normal adolescent male behavior. Kids of all colors have behavioral and attitude problems, but I believe you've posted statistics that show the problem is much more prevalent in the black community. That might have something to do with his decision to include the race of the kids in the discussion? Maybe the fact that the kids, themselves, injected it into the conversation. Or it could be that he just hates black people. Which is more logical to you?

I don't think I can break it down anymore then I already did. Let me try one more time.

His opinion of race is entirely irrelevant to a discussion concerning how to improve society. Yes, he used the word "black" as an adjective. Let it go

Talking about Mathematician's opinion of race is a waste of time, and pointless.


Guys, seriously??!! How could you say that I made this about race, he did... (these are quotes from his story)

1- Calls the story "the next Zimmerman (almost)
2- Begins the story about how these "black kids..."
3- makes references to how they are gonna wind up stuck in the "ghetto"
4- references there language “nigga….cool yo azz” and “you lucky she here”
5- reference “crap THUG music” (because it was rap)
6-Says “it’s an opportunity to teach some teens the same points Bill O’Reilly has been trying to get across this past week about THIS culture
7- Says..."What more can I do to straighten out black youth besides adopting"

And the first confrontational thing said was said by him. (insisting that they pick up their trash)

Again I ask you, why did HE make this about race when these behaviors are typical (albeit unacceptable to some) teenage boy behaviors. It implies somehow that their behavior is attributable to race and not the fact that they are teen boys; which is the real issue here btw.
 
Re: The next Zimmerman (almost)

What's not objective about rap music videos being negative?

The lyrics, the lifestyle they portray, etc.

Lots of modern music is negative. There is no objective evidence that it influences behavior. Besides, if you try to police people tastes in music or art or dress then where do we draw the line and who gets to chose what is "acceptable". I am certain you wouldn't want to listen to my Joni Mitchell or Steve Ray Vaughn for that matter. Are you gonna decide that my Etta James is to ...suggestive?
 
Re: The next Zimmerman (almost)

Guys, seriously??!! How could you say that I made this about race, he did... (these are quotes from his story)

1- Calls the story "the next Zimmerman (almost)
2- Begins the story about how these "black kids..."
3- makes references to how they are gonna wind up stuck in the "ghetto"
4- references there language “nigga….cool yo azz” and “you lucky she here”
5- reference “crap THUG music” (because it was rap)
6-Says “it’s an opportunity to teach some teens the same points Bill O’Reilly has been trying to get across this past week about THIS culture
7- Says..."What more can I do to straighten out black youth besides adopting"

And the first confrontational thing said was said by him. (insisting that they pick up their trash)

Again I ask you, why did HE make this about race when these behaviors are typical (albeit unacceptable to some) teenage boy behaviors. It implies somehow that their behavior is attributable to race and not the fact that they are teen boys; which is the real issue here btw.

I never said you made this about race. I'm saying I think he included race in the topic so that we would read and then discuss it. The reference to Zimmerman is sort of a dead (no pun intended) giveaway. If you don't think that bad attitude and antisocial behavior are more prevalent in the black community than other groups in the US, then the crime statistics are lying. Or maybe you think these things are unrelated?
 
Re: The next Zimmerman (almost)

No it's not irrelevant. You have not demonstrated that it is irrelevant. It is quite relevant as I said given the recent trend of several threads highlighting about race. I believe in my recent post I mentioned how the bold comments and the name of the thread made me suspicious.

See posts 264 and 270. Mathematician's prejudices or lack thereof have no bearing on the implications and analysis of his scenario.
 
Re: The next Zimmerman (almost)

Guys, seriously??!! How could you say that I made this about race, he did... (these are quotes from his story)

1- Calls the story "the next Zimmerman (almost)
2- Begins the story about how these "black kids..."
3- makes references to how they are gonna wind up stuck in the "ghetto"
4- references there language “nigga….cool yo azz” and “you lucky she here”
5- reference “crap THUG music” (because it was rap)
6-Says “it’s an opportunity to teach some teens the same points Bill O’Reilly has been trying to get across this past week about THIS culture
7- Says..."What more can I do to straighten out black youth besides adopting"

And the first confrontational thing said was said by him. (insisting that they pick up their trash)

Again I ask you, why did HE make this about race when these behaviors are typical (albeit unacceptable to some) teenage boy behaviors. It implies somehow that their behavior is attributable to race and not the fact that they are teen boys; which is the real issue here btw.

I understand your position, but my position undercuts your position because my position is that the behavior is completely unacceptable, and regardless of Mathematician's behavior, the the discussion was about the analysis of the kids' behavior. Moreover, Mathematician's behavior when the conflict arose was completely respectful. He asked the kid to stop illegal behavior, and the kid went out of his way to be absolutely disrespectful.

That analysis doesn't require knowledge of Mathematician's personal thoughts/feelings.
 
Re: The next Zimmerman (almost)

For those who are South Park fans, notice how the posts from the left are similar to some dialogue from the episode Cartman's Silly Hate Crime. :lol:

Man: Who is Token?
Cartman: He is a black kid that goes to my school.
Man: BLACK? OH MY GOD DID YOU CALL HIM BLACK?
Cartman: He is black.
Man: Oh! He said it again.
 
Re: The next Zimmerman (almost)

What a bunch of thugs. Good on you for keeping your cool.

I saw an article by Ann Coulter on a DP thread, and I thought she actually made some good points, even if her wording wasn't the best.

The thing that always gets me about stuff like your case and Zimmerman's case is that it's always assume that Martin and these thugs are free of wrong-doing. Martin wasn't exactly a great person, and let's be totally honest, he wasn't going to cure cancer or anything. He would've been working a job that a machine could do. Same with your story. I don't know which city you live in, but those boys chose a bad path in life, and it's quite self-evident.

I understand the causes of the problem, and what the situation is, but that doesn't excuse such behavior. Especially at 17, on the cusp of adulthood.

His brother is at college, how can you know what path Trayvon would have taken? Three months before he died, he was a sixteen year-old.

Far too young to be labeled, as all Zimmerman apologists have done.
 
Re: The next Zimmerman (almost)

Here is the mistake.

Nigga ... what do you think that means?

That was HIS mistake, he decides the guy is just gonna walk over to his bag and steal some stuff?! On what grounds? What lies behind that assumption? Why did he go there?

The OP confronted a boy, pretty pathetic example of a frail male ego if you ask me.

Oh.... Im sorry...... was he a "boy"?

Oh, well then by all means, he should be allowed to do and say what he pleases..... My apologies.
 
Re: The next Zimmerman (almost)

No one is answering a very simple question. How was race a factor. Why was it referenced in the title of the thread and why was it mentioned in the beginning of the story. How is it relevant?

Plain and simple...

Because he was called a "nigga"
 
IMO, and obviously in the eyes of half of the other posters, I did keep my cool. If you look at my statement word-for-word, do you honestly think the sheer fact that I used a stern tone is losing my cool? The buddy-buddy tone is for a kid young enough that they reasonably don't know any better.

Obviously the approach you employed failed miserably. It wouldn't matter if I was the only one who disagreed with teh approach, the proof is in the pudding.
 
Re: The next Zimmerman (almost)

Μολὼν λαβέ;1062149052 said:
Pretty much everything it seems.

Thank you for the well-thought out response that conveyed a great deal of detail and factual information.
 
Re: The next Zimmerman (almost)

Oh.... Im sorry...... was he a "boy"?

Oh, well then by all means, he should be allowed to do and say what he pleases..... My apologies.

That is a silly place to jump and you know it. Don't put words in my mouth and impose a position, that has come from your imagination, onto me. Your efforts at distraction are juvenile and beneath you.
 
Re: The next Zimmerman (almost)

So what's the answer? Do nothing? Stand by and let kids trash up the places we call home?
 
Re: The next Zimmerman (almost)

I never said you made this about race. I'm saying The reference to Zimmerman is sort of a dead (no pun intended) giveaway. If you don't think that bad attitude and antisocial behavior are more prevalent in the black community than other groups in the US, then the crime statistics are lying. Or maybe you think these things are unrelated?



Okay, sorry if I misread you or lumped you in with rep.

I think he included race in the topic so that we would read and then discuss it.

His story makes a statement it does not ask questions. (the question at the end about what more can I do appears to me to be rhetorical) It does not present a curiosity he has for discussion so it is difficult to buy your premise.

If you don't think that bad attitude and antisocial behavior are more prevalent in the black community than other groups in the US, then the crime statistics are lying.

I won't get into the debate over the attitudes and crimes stats here, that's a whole other conversation. For the sake of argument I will just go with it. The problem remains. The question isn't whether or not bad attitudes, antisocial behavior and crime are more prevalent in the black "community" the question is whether or not those extremes (the behaviors by individuals within that community that make up those statistics) were present in THESE individuals. This is what I see as the problem. These kids were behaving like any other teen but he saw them as contributors to those statistics purely because they were black kids, when again what they did was not different than any other teen boy it did not warrant those labels. Look at this way... some women are moody b**tches but it does not follow that all then are moody b**tches, some southerners are racists assholes but not ALL southerners are racists assholes etc. It's not like they pulled out a crack pipe and a .45 on the court for gods sake.
 
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Re: The next Zimmerman (almost)

I understand your position, but my position undercuts your position because my position is that the behavior is completely unacceptable, and regardless of Mathematician's behavior, the the discussion was about the analysis of the kids' behavior. Moreover, Mathematician's behavior when the conflict arose was completely respectful. He asked the kid to stop illegal behavior, and the kid went out of his way to be absolutely disrespectful.

That analysis doesn't require knowledge of Mathematician's personal thoughts/feelings.

Thank you for making the effort to understand my position but I have to stand my ground here. Please look at post #292 I just sent Fed.
 
Re: The next Zimmerman (almost)

I won't get into the debate over the attitudes and crimes stats here, that's a whole other conversation. For the sake of argument I will just go with it. The problem remains. The question isn't whether or not bad attitudes, antisocial behavior and crime are more prevalent in the black "community" the question is whether or not those extremes (the behaviors by individuals within that community that make up those statistics) were present in THESE individuals. This is what I see as the problem. These kids were behaving like any other teen but he saw them as contributors to those statistics purely because they were black kids, when again what they did was not different than any other teen boy it did not warrant those labels. Look at this way... some women are moody b**tches but it does not follow that all then are moody b**tches, some southerners are racists assholes but not ALL southerners are racists assholes etc. It's not like they pulled out a crack pipe and a .45 on the court for gods sake.

Are you telling me that you would tolerate that type of behavior from your own? How about from your neighbors? If you would not, then you are failing to hold these kids to the same standard, which is not fair to the kids, and is a little bit racist.

If you're telling me that you would let your own kids slide with that behavior, I'm telling you that I don't believe you. Low expectations are bad for white kids too, but I think you know that. Nobody here is saying that adolescent males never act the fool. Nobody is saying that these particular kids are going to be in prison tomorrow. I am saying that if no one bothers to correct them, their chances of ending up in the system are much higher. You seem to be implying that it can only be a deep-seated, unacknowledged racism that motivates a person to correct them if the adolescent males happen to be black. I have no idea how you get there.
 
Re: The next Zimmerman (almost)

His brother is at college, how can you know what path Trayvon would have taken? Three months before he died, he was a sixteen year-old.

Far too young to be labeled, as all Zimmerman apologists have done.

It's called an inference (by its legal definition).
 
Re: The next Zimmerman (almost)

Thank you for making the effort to understand my position but I have to stand my ground here. Please look at post #292 I just sent Fed.

I won't get into the debate over the attitudes and crimes stats here, that's a whole other conversation. For the sake of argument I will just go with it. The problem remains. The question isn't whether or not bad attitudes, antisocial behavior and crime are more prevalent in the black "community" the question is whether or not those extremes (the behaviors by individuals within that community that make up those statistics) were present in THESE individuals. This is what I see as the problem. These kids were behaving like any other teen but he saw them as contributors to those statistics purely because they were black kids, when again what they did was not different than any other teen boy it did not warrant those labels. Look at this way... some women are moody b**tches but it does not follow that all then are moody b**tches, some southerners are racists assholes but not ALL southerners are racists assholes etc. It's not like they pulled out a crack pipe and a .45 on the court for gods sake.

The underlined portions are what I take issue with. Your position is in essence allowing for the kids' behavior because they were behaving like any other teen. That's the problem right there, we shouldn't allow teens to do this. Specifically, the act that started the tension, which was littering. It is illegal, and Mathematician was correct in telling them to throw their trash away. The response was to litter again. He picked up the trash, and threw it back on the ground. That's littering for a second time, not to mention, it was meant to be an affront to Mathematician.

Now, I can understand the social dynamics behind the act, and yeah, I'd agree that that can be considered a normal male action. But to litter to make that point is legally wrong. The situation devolved from there, but my position is that this kid's beginning actions were wrong, they are indefensible, and Mathematician responded in the correct manner. It is wrong to claim he was necessarily motivated by thoughts of race, and it is wrong to say he acted later on because of race and not because of the deplorable nature of the kid's actions.
 
Re: The next Zimmerman (almost)

It's called an inference (by its legal definition).

Yeah? Well I call it a "long shot in the dark by the people who think black men are disposable."
 
Re: The next Zimmerman (almost)

But rap music has several genres within itself?

Here are subgenres of hip-hop/rap music

Alternative hip hop – Turntablism – Christian hip hop – Conscious hip hop – Experimental hip hop – Freestyle rap – Gangsta rap – Homo hop – Hardcore hip hop – Horrorcore – Instrumental hip hop – Mafioso rap – Nerdcore – Political hip hop – Baltimore club – Bounce – Brick City club – Chicano rap – Native American hip hop – Jerkin'

Reference:Hip hop music - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I am not sure how I can define the type of rap music in question. However, I do not feel as though I need to explain which type I am talking about. Obviously, I do not have a problem with the fact that people rhyme words together to a beat and call it rap. I have a problem with the lyrics prevalent in popular rap music today. They are influencing the most easily influenced audience (youth) into poor lifestlye choices.

The rap music I am speaking of is to radio, as MTV is to television. It's just garbage.
 
Re: The next Zimmerman (almost)

Yeah? Well I call it a "long shot in the dark by the people who think black men are disposable."

Call it whatever nonsense you want, an inference is an inference.
 
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