The next Zimmerman (almost)[W:65]

[Knowledge=power]

Re: The next Zimmerman (almost)

That's kind of my point. Those are all very different issues and can be directed at just about any teenage boy so the fact that race was even part of his story is illogical. You completely missed my point. How about we stop making this about blame and start making it about solutions.

And what solutions do you propose?

Care to address the bit about rap music and black culture? We could start there for solutions.

 

[repeter]

Re: The next Zimmerman (almost)

I am speaking specifically about rappers, e.g. Kanye West saying that G W Bush hates black people during the Katrina issue. Black culture looks up to rappers / basketball players, because they are rich and famous. What they say is influential.

Oh okay, I didn't realize that's who you were talking about. I agree with you completely.

We do not have to differentiate between poetry and the type of rap music in question, do we? You and I both know what type of music we are talking about and it is far from poetry.

The difference may be clear to you and I, but we're still fallible human beings. I'm pretty young and because I don't think I necessarily have the perspective to speak with authority matters of culture or the path of humanity, I was raising that concern.

But anyway, do you have any ideas of how to tackle this issue? The first that comes to mind for me is based off your comment on influential people. They are huge influences, and if they started behaving differently, or just changed their music, it would be an enormous help. But the problem I see is that there is already a demand for that sort of entertainment, and corporations will replace the reformed rappers with someone who's willing to do what they're told to.

 

[Lutherf]

Re: The next Zimmerman (almost)

You post a story with no actual proof and expect me to believe you actually did something? This is not even politics guy, this is just some ranting by you. Can you prove to us any of this actually happened? i know people around here buy it, but there is no news article associated with it, and anyone could make this up. Why in the world am i supposed to buy this at all? I have heard people claim to be werewolves who have to file their teeth down. I have actually heard people selling tinfoil hats to give you super mental powers by altering the EM waves of your brain. I am not here to believe everything i read on the internet

Oh yeah!! Well I don't believe that you don't believe him! In fact I'm pretty sure that you just made up your disbelief because you couldn't believe that you actually believed he was telling the truth. In fact, if you really believed that you didn't believe him you'd still have to consider that he believed it.

Un-freaking-believable!

 

[rabbitcaebannog]

Re: The next Zimmerman (almost)

And what solutions do you propose?

Care to address the bit about rap music and black culture? We could start there for solutions.

Only if you want to address heavy metal and other genres of music that is violent, sexual and/or vulgar in nature.

 

[repeter]

Re: The next Zimmerman (almost)

Only if you want to address heavy metal and other genres of music that is violent, sexual and/or vulgar in nature.

Oh definitely, this has to be an inclusive move. There are countless cultural/societal problems that need to be addressed simultaneously to have any affect.

 

[Verax]

Re: The next Zimmerman (almost)

This thread is opcorn2:

 

[Knowledge=power]

Re: The next Zimmerman (almost)

But anyway, do you have any ideas of how to tackle this issue? The first that comes to mind for me is based off your comment on influential people. They are huge influences, and if they started behaving differently, or just changed their music, it would be an enormous help. But the problem I see is that there is already a demand for that sort of entertainment, and corporations will replace the reformed rappers with someone who's willing to do what they're told to.

Good observation. I think you are right about that.

Also, black culture tends to ostracize black people who they feel are behaving like 'uncle toms' or being 'too white.' I think a lot of the behavior and comments these public figures make is to avoid that from happening to them. Their image is their life - they are entertainers.

I honestly can not think of any solutions after your point and mine.

 

[Lutherf]

Re: The next Zimmerman (almost)

As a youth counselor and former high school teacher, I can assure you that it is normal for teens to be rebellious against authority. From experience, I did see disparity on how teens were disciplined. When I worked in a poor inner city school, the teens were treated with more a zero tolerance approach. Many would automatically be suspended from school and some expelled. In the wealthier suburban school I taught at, if the child was well connected, they often got away with a lot with a slap on the wrist. I found the teens from the suburban school to be much more sneaky with poor behavior and poorer inner city teens to be more overt about their actions. I think it has more to do with poverty than race and Bill O'Reilly is a hack.

It has to do with a culture that neglects personal responsibility and general civility while preaching victimhood and oppression. It is related to poverty but not caused by poverty. It is, rather, poverty that is the result of such a culture.

 

[Knowledge=power]

Re: The next Zimmerman (almost)

Only if you want to address heavy metal and other genres of music that is violent, sexual and/or vulgar in nature.

Sure. I think it is just as powerful and harmful to youth as rap music is. It should be as heavily scrutinized and monitored as rap music.

Edit: I have listened to more metal than I have rap, and the little rap I have listened to is far worse than the metal. Needed to add that.

 

[rabbitcaebannog]

Re: The next Zimmerman (almost)

It has to do with a culture that neglects personal responsibility and general civility while preaching victimhood and oppression. It is related to poverty but not caused by poverty. It is, rather, poverty that is the result of such a culture.

Sure, as if many extremely wealthy teens haven't been through drug rehabs and the sort. Real 'personal responsibility'! Have you heard of Maslow's hierarchy of needs? I think that has more to do with it when you talk poverty. Teens rebelling though is a completely different topic. They all do it.

 

[rabbitcaebannog]

Re: The next Zimmerman (almost)

Sure. I think it is just as powerful and harmful to youth as rap music is. It should be as heavily scrutinized and monitored as rap music.

Edit: I have listened to more metal than I have rap, and the little rap I have listened to is far worse than the metal. Needed to add that.

Then you don't remember the public's outcry about heavy metal which some suggested incited teenagers to commit murder and suicide.

 

[Lutherf]

Re: The next Zimmerman (almost)

Sure, as if many extremely wealthy teens haven't been through drug rehabs and the sort. Real 'personal responsibility'! Have you heard of Maslow's hierarchy of needs? I think that has more to do with it when you talk poverty. Teens rebelling though is a completely different topic. They all do it.

If you're rich and put your kid in drug rehab what happens? You spend money on their sorry asses thus making you less rich! See how this works? I don't care how wealthy you start out, if you start blowing off responsibility and civility you'll get poor. It's bad attitudes that cause poverty and it's good attitudes that allow people to escape poverty. How you can't see this is beyond me.

 

[Knowledge=power]

Re: The next Zimmerman (almost)

Then you don't remember the public's outcry about heavy metal which some suggested incited teenagers to commit murder and suicide.

No, I don't.

However, I don't see a public outcry about rap - why? - because that would be considered racist :roll:

 

[rabbitcaebannog]

Re: The next Zimmerman (almost)

If you're rich and put your kid in drug rehab what happens? You spend money on their sorry asses thus making you less rich! See how this works? I don't care how wealthy you start out, if you start blowing off responsibility and civility you'll get poor.

Um, tell that to the many very wealthy people who have struggled with drugs, alcohol and even things such as shoplifting. That does not mean they will become poor it just means many can get away with more than someone who can't afford great lawyers. And, your comment, "It's bad attitudes that cause poverty and it's good attitudes that allow people to escape poverty" is highly questionable as many a wealthy person has had a bad attitude and have caused problems. Ever heard of correlation does not imply causation?

 

[Gina]

Re: The next Zimmerman (almost)

Moderator's Warning:

Stick to the topic which is not each other. The ping-pong match was over last night.

 

[rabbitcaebannog]

Re: The next Zimmerman (almost)

No, I don't.

However, I don't see a public outcry about rap - why? - because that would be considered racist :roll:

Who said there was no public outcry?

 

[repeter]

Re: The next Zimmerman (almost)

Good observation. I think you are right about that.

Also, black culture tends to ostracize black people who they feel are behaving like 'uncle toms' or being 'too white.' I think a lot of the behavior and comments these public figures make is to avoid that from happening to them. Their image is their life - they are entertainers.

I honestly can not think of any solutions after your point and mine.

On a purely hypothetical level, I think the solution might lie in the corporate world. It would take a benevolent billionaire/corporation to buy out the media companies, and change their paths. Just make them stop catering to the market. If any new companies come up, buy them out too. Essentially, we need an ultra-rich person to decide to do something good for society.

I've thought about that sort of thing a lot. Someone who did that would have the power and resources to solve any problem in the world. This is even better because on his/her death, the person could split up the wealth in a will, and prevent the successorship issue that ruins every absolute control scenario.

 

[FederalRepublic]

Re: The next Zimmerman (almost)

That's kind of my point. Those are all very different issues and can be directed at just about any teenage boy so the fact that race was even part of his story is illogical. You completely missed my point. How about we stop making this about blame and start making it about solutions.

Race was part of the story. Literally. The story is about a group of black kids who are victims of a particular culture and his attempts to help them be better people. Feeling sorry for them because they're black and excusing their behavior would not have been helpful to them at all. Why do you make him out to be a bad guy?

 

[FederalRepublic]

Re: The next Zimmerman (almost)

Then you don't remember the public's outcry about heavy metal which some suggested incited teenagers to commit murder and suicide.

I don't remember there being public outcry, per se, but I do remember the legislation that came out and the backlash it created. I can think of a number of songs dedicated to the issue, several dedicated to Tipper Gore specifically.

 

[opendebate]

Re: The next Zimmerman (almost)

Race was part of the story. Literally. The story is about a group of black kids who are victims of a particular culture and his attempts to help them be better people. Feeling sorry for them because they're black and excusing their behavior would not have been helpful to them at all. Why do you make him out to be a bad guy?

He no more knew them to be victims of their culture then he knew their favorite color.

I don't feel sorry for them because unlike you apparently, I don't feel I have reason to feel sorry for them, pity is disrespectful.

My take on it was that the way he interpreted these kids behavior was profoundly swayed by the fact that they were black kids because based purely on what he said they did, they could have been any male kid that age. When he brought race into the conversation he in part blamed their behavior on race. That just doesn't fit in this story. If he had not made race such a central part of this story (mainly by calling himself the almost zimmerman) then I would not of protested his approach to these kids but I still would of seen him as an arrogant pr**k)

The arrogance of the assumption that somehow we have to save them from themselves is shocking. Who exactly do you think you are?? How much better exactly do you think you are?? That you can waltz into someone else's life and let them know what they need to do so their lives appear right to you. Do you go to another country and tell them to change their customs and lives so they are more suited to your standards of behavior?

That attitude right there is exactly the problem that what america needs to address. That's why WE are part of the problem. That's one of our many contributions to the problem.

 

[joko104]

Re: The next Zimmerman (almost)

The double standard. Race-baiters shout "racism! racist!" incessantly. And then if anyone else joins in the topic they reverse and declare anyone - but them - mentioning race or a person's race is a racist. Only they get to talk about race and the only accept topic to them is a contest of can more call furiously white people racists. No other mention or discussion of race is tolerable.

 

[FederalRepublic]

Re: The next Zimmerman (almost)

He no more knew them to be victims of their culture then he knew their favorite color.

I don't feel sorry for them because unlike you apparently, I don't feel I have reason to feel sorry for them, pity is disrespectful.

My take on it was that the way he interpreted these kids behavior was profoundly swayed by the fact that they were black kids because based purely on what he said they did, they could have been any male kid that age. When he brought race into the conversation he in part blamed their behavior on race. That just doesn't fit in this story. If he had not made race such a central part of this story (mainly by calling himself the almost zimmerman) then I would not of protested his approach to these kids but I still would of seen him as an arrogant pr**k)

The arrogance of the assumption that somehow we have to save them from themselves is shocking. Who exactly do you think you are?? How much better exactly do you think you are?? That you can waltz into someone else's life and let them know what they need to do so their lives appear right to you. Do you go to another country and tell them to change their customs and lives so they are more suited to your standards of behavior?

That attitude right there is exactly the problem that what america needs to address. That's why WE are part of the problem. That's one of our many contributions to the problem.

If I'm interacting with someone, particularly a young someone, who is exhibiting antisocial behavior, how on earth am I the bad guy for attempting to teach them better. Think about what you're saying. You got defensive because he wants to talk about what we can do to keep those kids from becoming statistics, and further he took action to do so, and your immediate reaction is to think he was being a prick? That attitude is why we can't have a meaningful discussion on the topic. It's ok to bring up the statistics and talk about how deplorable they are, but try to make a difference and you're suddenly the biggest ass in the whole world.

Speaking of being in another country, I've spent some time in West Africa. Many of them could use a lesson on how to treat others in a civilized society, not to mention littering.

 

[FederalRepublic]

Re: The next Zimmerman (almost)

Then you don't remember the public's outcry about heavy metal which some suggested incited teenagers to commit murder and suicide.

Dee Snyder vs. Al Gore

Dee Snider vs Tipper Gore 1984 - YouTube

 

[Tucker Case]

Re: The next Zimmerman (almost)

So what I'm not getting is how a story about an arrogant, self-righteous dude trying to tell an arrogant, angry teenager what to do as though he was the kid's father relates to Zimmerman in any way? What am I missing? Why is this about race, rather than being about two people who were both acting like assholes?

 

[rabbitcaebannog]

Re: The next Zimmerman (almost)

Dee Snyder vs. Al Gore

Dee Snider vs Tipper Gore 1984 - YouTube

My point was not meant to be partisan related. :elephantf:donkeyfla

This is what I was referring to which includes both heavy metal and rap:

Heavy metal rock and "gangsta" rap music are more violent than ever before; children and teenagers should not be allowed to listen to the violent messages in this music.
Abstract: In 1989 the American Medical Association released a report that concluded that music is a greater influence in the life of a teenager than television. Those involved in the rock culture were more likely to be low achievers, involved in drugs, sexually active, and involved in satanic activities. Stating that the issue is too complicated to prove a one-on-one correlation, the report nonetheless concluded that a fascination with heavy metal music was an indicator of adolescent alienation and possible emotional health problems. A report by Free Congress concludes that "heavy metal and rap music today contains an element of hatred and abuse of women of a degree never seen before." In addition to extraordinary sexism, the music contains equally offensive racism, blasphemy, and bigotry. Large numbers of disturbed adolescents with low self-worth draw inspiration from heavy metal music because it makes them feel powerful and in charge. Providing simple answers to complex problems, it gives them a source of authority for what they feel and do. Attitudes and behaviors reinforced by heavy metal music are aggressive rebellion, abuse of drugs and alcohol, graphic violence and suicide, fascination with the occult, and sexuality that is graphic and explicit. Parents must encourage the Federal Communications Commission to be more diligent in enforcing the decency standard on broadcast radio and television and help the Commission by sending in cases. Since MTV has become readily available to children on basic cable, this standard should be extended to cable in the form of a "harmful to minors" law. Removing MTV from basic cable and making it a separate subscription channel is an even better solution. https://www.ncjrs.gov/App/publications/abstract.aspx?ID=160262