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The myth that unions destroyed the auto industry, it was all poor products and loss..

Re: The myth that unions destroyed the auto industry, it was all poor products and lo

And yet...no source.


I, however, can provide...

How to get a job at skorsky? - Sikorsky Jobs | Indeed.com

Philip Greenspun's Weblog » Sikorsky’s Chinese factory starts producing

And not for nothing, you can ask most anyone that works there, the jobs cake. The training they get consists of liability ****, safety, OSHA, etc. as for actually doing the job? Minimal training needed for most positions that are hourly(union).

You are joking right? A blog and a message board... as a source.
 
Re: The myth that unions destroyed the auto industry, it was all poor products and lo

That's just what they said when Henry Ford promised all his workers at least $5 a day in 1914. That's about $110 in todays money.


And Sam Walton wanted to hire people nobody else would hire and lower prices so they could afford to shop in his store when they got off work, but I don't see liberals praising Walmart for that.
 
Re: The myth that unions destroyed the auto industry, it was all poor products and lo

And Sam Walton wanted to hire people nobody else would hire and lower prices so they could afford to shop in his store when they got off work, but I don't see liberals praising Walmart for that.

Yeah I am sure that is what Walton intended, lol
 
Re: The myth that unions destroyed the auto industry, it was all poor products and lo

And Sam Walton wanted to hire people nobody else would hire and lower prices so they could afford to shop in his store when they got off work, but I don't see liberals praising Walmart for that.

The praise is for Ford's insight into workers wages. He found that paying them double was more efficient than before. I will praise Walmart when they double their workers wages too.
 
Re: The myth that unions destroyed the auto industry, it was all poor products and lo

The praise is for Ford's insight into workers wages. He found that paying them double was more efficient than before. I will praise Walmart when they double their workers wages too.

Keep citing cherry picked actions that you agree with as evidence of some greater good at work. Plenty of business has thrived by lowering wages (and prices!), see WalMart. You know, a modern example in a much more established market, not one on the cusp of explosive growth in a new industry. Dur. You ****ing people. Why not praise Valve (software), they have a badass work culture and pay really well, it's like a workers dream? (They have absurdly high revenue per person, hint ****ing hint)
 
Re: The myth that unions destroyed the auto industry, it was all poor products and lo

Keep citing cherry picked actions that you agree with as evidence of some greater good at work. Plenty of business has thrived by lowering wages (and prices!), see WalMart. You know, a modern example in a much more established market, not one on the cusp of explosive growth in a new industry. Dur. You ****ing people. Why not praise Valve (software), they have a badass work culture and pay really well, it's like a workers dream? (They have absurdly high revenue per person, hint ****ing hint)

I'm glad you like the fact that the State makes up the difference in Walmarts wages and what it costs to survive. It shows you are really a socialist at heart. A corporate socialist is still a socialist.
Accurate and timely data on Wal-Mart’s wage and
employment practices is not always readily available.
However, occasional releases of demographic data from
public assistance programs can provide useful windows into
the scope of taxpayer subsidization of Wal-Mart. After
analyzing data released by Wisconsin’s Medicaid program,
the Democratic staff of the U.S. House Committee on
Education and the Workforce estimates that a single 300-
person Wal-Mart Supercenter store in Wisconsin likely costs
taxpayers at least $904,542 per year and could cost
taxpayers up to $1,744,590 per year – about $5,815 per
employee.

http://democrats.edworkforce.house.gov/sites/democrats.edworkforce.house.gov/files/documents/WalMartReport-May2013.pdf
 
Re: The myth that unions destroyed the auto industry, it was all poor products and lo

The praise is for Ford's insight into workers wages. He found that paying them double was more efficient than before. I will praise Walmart when they double their workers wages too.

Wow, not really familiar with how Henry Ford operated are you? Henry virtually invented the company store. That's how he managed the greater salary - he knew he'd get it back and then some. Employees rented their homes from him, bought their groceries and sundries from him. All "discounted" for company men. Kept them fully under his control and what he paid them he got back. And he got to look like the hero in the process.

On a side note, it's why his cars came to run on gasoline where they originally ran on peanut oil. Henry owned significant oil stocks.
 
Re: The myth that unions destroyed the auto industry, it was all poor products and lo

Wow, not really familiar with how Henry Ford operated are you? Henry virtually invented the company store. That's how he managed the greater salary - he knew he'd get it back and then some. Employees rented their homes from him, bought their groceries and sundries from him. All "discounted" for company men. Kept them fully under his control and what he paid them he got back. And he got to look like the hero in the process.

On a side note, it's why his cars came to run on gasoline where they originally ran on peanut oil. Henry owned significant oil stocks.

What a lot of bull. Peanut oil will only run diesels.
 
Re: The myth that unions destroyed the auto industry, it was all poor products and lo

You are missing the major part of this story, before this all happened the CEO managed the big three from a market share of 77% to 44%. Whatever way you spin it the mismanagement happened first.

Answer the damn question instead of avoiding it. You are missing... if you go from 77% to 44%, wage costs have to come down but since the Union had complete control over what the company could do the company was at the mercy of the Union. If they went on strike. That 44% becomes 0%, remember that.
 
Re: The myth that unions destroyed the auto industry, it was all poor products and lo

Answer the damn question instead of avoiding it. You are missing... if you go from 77% to 44%, wage costs have to come down but since the Union had complete control over what the company could do the company was at the mercy of the Union. If they went on strike. That 44% becomes 0%, remember that.

Wages, don't have to come down at all. Maybe employees do, but not wages. It is called downsizing.
 
Re: The myth that unions destroyed the auto industry, it was all poor products and lo

Wages, don't have to come down at all. Maybe employees do, but not wages. It is called downsizing.

If your legacy costs (Pensions) are supported by the current work force you have you would need to cut wages and use the difference to fund the pension if you are liable for that pension. It's not cutting jobs that saves money. It's cutting total cost. That means wages, production, pension costs, and etc.. biggest costs first.

The difference between GM and Ford was GM did nothing about Pension costs. Ford told UAW they wanted to change the terms. Ford got to kill suspend bonuses, got rid of cost of living adjustments, alter work rules (which effected wages, explained below) and got rid of the lay-off program (that 95% paid not to work), then they were allowed to fund the retiree health care trust with stock and much less cash.

The altered work rules applied meant you had to work a full 40 hours a week to get overtime that's 5 hours more then they did before.

So in one fell swoop wages were cut, no COLA increase, no bonuses, people got fired (laid off) and funding of Pension changed.
 
Re: The myth that unions destroyed the auto industry, it was all poor products and lo

Ford didn't cut wages, they hire more entry level workers and had hordes of cash to weather the crash better then the other companies. They also had a much better product and increased sales.
 
Re: The myth that unions destroyed the auto industry, it was all poor products and lo

Ford didn't cut wages, they hire more entry level workers and had hordes of cash to weather the crash better then the other companies. They also had a much better product and increased sales.
Hi JP.

You're following the money now. I think that's a good idea. In fact, why not forget ideology completely for a bit, and do that?
Observe the complete supply chain from the point of a neutral third party, from start to end, from shareholders and management to assembly line workers and final distributors, and establish which link costs what money and why.

Ideology is only about which link is entitled to what slice of pie. It is subjective and makes for poor objectivity as related to how you should try and influence the actual running of a business.
Having worked out in advance which link in the chain is costing money makes for a more objective analysis, giving you a more realistic chance of subsequently applying ideology to a given scenario, without messing everything up.
It worked for the Swedish unions. (well, mostly...)
 
Re: The myth that unions destroyed the auto industry, it was all poor products and lo

Link to a source for that? All the closed shop union shops round here in CT have no such apprenticeship...you get the job based on connections, and it takes about 3 hours to become a "skilled laborer". And that's at a helicopter manufacturing plant. Outa be pretty similar to making cars.

Tell me about it. I lived in Stratford, CT for quite some time and am very familiar with Sikorsky. Unions are "blue collar nobility" and if you suck up to the right people or have the right daddy or uncle, you might get knighted but otherwise, you'll be shoveling stalls.
 
Re: The myth that unions destroyed the auto industry, it was all poor products and lo

The wages were only 3% higher than Japanese wages, which comes out to about $200 a car. The wages were not the issue, especially since American cars were cheaper!!!!

It could be that I'm just to young to remember correctly, maybe a few gray-beards can set me straight, but I'm pretty sure that Japanese cars were cheaper in the 70's & 80's. I have no idea what they paid their factory workers, but I'm fairly confident your 3% premium applies only to very recent (since 2000) history. The American auto industry's awful contributions to motoring history had pretty much turned around by the 2000's. The problem was they still couldn't make any money. If your company can't make money, it has no business paying more than market wages to any employee (whether they be management or custodial).
 
Re: The myth that unions destroyed the auto industry, it was all poor products and lo

The EPI is fully funded by the unions, they are a union rah-rah org. You're not going to hear anything but distortion from them on the subject.

So can you show how their figures are biased rather than just assert that the people are? I bet you can't.
 
Re: The myth that unions destroyed the auto industry, it was all poor products and lo

If your legacy costs (Pensions) are supported by the current work force you have you would need to cut wages and use the difference to fund the pension if you are liable for that pension. It's not cutting jobs that saves money. It's cutting total cost. That means wages, production, pension costs, and etc.. biggest costs first.

The difference between GM and Ford was GM did nothing about Pension costs. Ford told UAW they wanted to change the terms. Ford got to kill suspend bonuses, got rid of cost of living adjustments, alter work rules (which effected wages, explained below) and got rid of the lay-off program (that 95% paid not to work), then they were allowed to fund the retiree health care trust with stock and much less cash.

The altered work rules applied meant you had to work a full 40 hours a week to get overtime that's 5 hours more then they did before.

So in one fell swoop wages were cut, no COLA increase, no bonuses, people got fired (laid off) and funding of Pension changed.

A bigger difference was GM financialized and created GMAC which invested in risky derivatives. Ford didn't.

Another reason why the financial industry needs to be highly regulated for everybody's sake, even stupid GM management.

By the way, "legacy cost" -- love it. If you can give something a scary name, it must be bad.
 
Re: The myth that unions destroyed the auto industry, it was all poor products and lo

A bigger difference was GM financialized and created GMAC which invested in risky derivatives. Ford didn't.

Another reason why the financial industry needs to be highly regulated for everybody's sake, even stupid GM management.

By the way, "legacy cost" -- love it. If you can give something a scary name, it must be bad.

Here is some information for you... which will actually correct the record and show you as highly mistaken.

51% of GMAC was sold to Cerberus Capital Management in 2006. Also in 2006 GM divested most of it from GMAC Commercial Holdings (derivatives) by selling it's assets to Goldman Sachs, KKR and Five Mile Capital Partners, from those sales.. Capmark was created. So two years before the 'market' meltdown.. GM had no major holding in mortgage derivatives.

Sucks when things fail to follow through in your narrative.
 
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