• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every persons position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

The Myth of the Big Evil Corporation

d2006

New member
Joined
Jan 15, 2008
Messages
24
Reaction score
3
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
The next time you meet someone who owns lot's of stock in a "big evil corporation" you shouldn't view them as "the man", you should view them as an idiot.

Why might you ask?

Well, the typical communist myth about how the "big evil corporations" are in charge of everything in the United States and how they will do anything to earn a profit to make their owners rich is a complete lie!

The Owners are Fools
The owners of corporate stock are the biggest suckers out there. Why? Because you can earn more money in a multitude of other investments!

First of all, by owning stock, unless you are in the top 10%, you have no say about what is going on in the company. It's a big huge secret. You might as well put your money into a slot machine, at least there you KNOW that you are going to lose money.

But even those suckers "on the board" are being taken. Anyone know what the AVERAGE dividend is of a stock? Let's run off a few!

Name Price Dividend%
BA 65 2.7
Google 488 0!!
Microsoft 25 2.64
Exxon 61 3

Wow, so I purchase Exxxon stock and I can get back 3% of my investment back, MAYBE! Or if I purchase Google i can get NOTHING BACK.

So if I am big investor, and I see two healthy companies out there, one pays 3% and one pays 0%, why would I purchase the 0%?

RIGHT! There is ZERO reason to do so. All you can do is HOPE some other fool THINKS this bull**** stock is worth something and gives you more for it than you paid for it. And usually they are hoping some fool with give them MORE money than they paid for it.

It's just like flipping homes, except homes actually DO have value. These stocks are practically worthless for many companies.

And anyone want to venture on how this system has worked for homes and stocks as of late?


This is NOT Capitalism!
In the end, the corporations in the United States are NOT capitalistic. They are in fact COMMUNIST. No one makes money off them, and the vast majority should be completely out of business because of inefficiency. In fact many of them just about did that, but were bailed out by "the elite".

So why are they communist? These corporation exist ONLY to provide a cheap working force and to shove money out into the economy in order to drive inflation. As stated before, many of them should be closed, but just like any good communist state they are kept afloat with external cash influx. This is not unlike any old Soviet factory that turns out inefficient tools, or collective farm that is so grotesquely bad that it can barely manage to even grow turnips.

But those cheap workers prevent competition from occuring or TRUE markets from forming, because while they are cruddy turnips, they are cheap and in high number. So entry into the market is suffocated.

The true price of turnips might actually be just a few cents more than the current market price, but even those few cents force many competitive businesses out.

This kills capitalism!

And just like any good communist system, the government official in charge of the factory gets a bigger house/office/ration. The soviets admit that higher level party members recieved "perks". High level military officals had very nice quarters. And just like the soviet countries our high level business leaders get perks! They make them "money rich", but they do not make them "power rich". So who are "they"?


This is NOT Communism!
While the corporations might very well be based on a communist model, the entire system is actually not communist. There IS a wealthy and powerful elite. And they are not the CEO's of major companies and they are not the head of our government. Sorry to break it to you guys, but George Bush Sr and Jr are both CIVIL SERVANTS, they are not the elite.

What system of control has this world seen where there is one small group on top that passes money&power down in their family, while subjugating the rest to hard labor with extreme controls on "social mobility"?

That's right; FEUDALISM!


Pity Your Local Communist
The next time you see someone discussing how we need to change away from capitalism, you can snicker a little at that poor communist.

The next time you hear about "evil corporations" making people "rich", try not to laugh, since owners make NOTHING.

When people scream that we need more government, try to remind them that we already have as big of a government as the soviets EVER had.

When people scream that we need capitalism, they are 100% correct, because we have not seen it in at least 100 years, if it even existed then.

The true communists and socialists in this nation have been fools for almost 60 years. They see big business as their enemy, when the people working in those companies are actually WORKING THE COMMUNIST MODEL.

Their real enemy are the "elite", just like how it was in the Russian Empire. And not one communist today has stood up and declared the proper target for their movement. They consistantly target their own brother's and sister's who struggle to make it by.

Pity these fools! For they are fighting themselves.
 

Harry Guerrilla

DP Veteran
Joined
Dec 18, 2008
Messages
28,955
Reaction score
12,423
Location
Not affiliated with other libertarians.
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Libertarian
d2006 said:
...Holy wall of text...
You need to study more about stocks and why buying them is a good thing.
The price of a share of stock does not stay static forever.

If I purchased 1 share of Johnson & Johnson in 1980, I would have paid less than $10 for it with a quarterly dividend of approximately 1 cent.
Fast forward to 2010, that one share would be worth $58 today and the dividend is approximately 54 cents a quarter.

Calculating the actual dividend I receive from my initial investment of $10, I'm earning a 20% dividend.

That's how it works for long term investors and it's not accounting for dividend reinvestment, which would make my gains even larger.
 

NolaMan

Well-known member
Joined
May 5, 2010
Messages
808
Reaction score
203
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
I hate to rain on your parade with the whole "buying stocks is a dumb idea" but I made an absolute killing buying all last year and watching it all come back. Additionally, a 3% dividend is not a bad investment, more than you will get from a bank at this point.

I'll give you an example of one stock I picked up within the last year.

I bought 5000 shares of Realty Income (O) at an average price of $22.24. At that time the dividend was a little over 7% a year (paid in monthly increments). The stock closed Friday at $31.83. That is roughly a $50,000 gain in the value, and I am still collecting 7% on my original investment ($700 a month roughly). That beats the hell out of any bank.
 

Harry Guerrilla

DP Veteran
Joined
Dec 18, 2008
Messages
28,955
Reaction score
12,423
Location
Not affiliated with other libertarians.
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Libertarian
I hate to rain on your parade with the whole "buying stocks is a dumb idea" but I made an absolute killing buying all last year and watching it all come back. Additionally, a 3% dividend is not a bad investment, more than you will get from a bank at this point.

I'll give you an example of one stock I picked up within the last year.

I bought 5000 shares of Realty Income (O) at an average price of $22.24. At that time the dividend was a little over 7% a year (paid in monthly increments). The stock closed Friday at $31.83. That is roughly a $50,000 gain in the value, and I am still collecting 7% on my original investment ($700 a month roughly). That beats the hell out of any bank.
I certainly don't have that kind of cash to invest but I did something similar with my 401k and some other shares I purchased.
I'm sitting pretty right now. :mrgreen:
 

Deuce

Outer space potato man
DP Veteran
Joined
Feb 6, 2010
Messages
75,078
Reaction score
32,899
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
Yeah I'm such a sucker for making about 20% on my investments in 2009.
 

d2006

New member
Joined
Jan 15, 2008
Messages
24
Reaction score
3
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
Yep, you are all suckers. Anyone care to share how much money they made on their investments in 2007 and 2008?

Quite alot of people I know still haven't even reached their 401k or investment levels from 2007, even with the boost from the end of 2009. In other words they took a loss. Some are even worse off than that because when "they" "shook the tree" their stop losses kicked in and they lost quite alot money. Not to mention that even if you own stock from the early 80's you have to take into consideration INFLATION and COST OF LIVING CHANGES. Watch your returns drop into the toilet!

And 2nd of all, you are all still suckers. Anyone care to venture what % return many business owners see? My buddy consistantly makes 100% - 400% (depending on the season). Anyone here purchase Google when it first came out and see anything close to those returns? Even then, you only made it 1 time, when my friend makes it YEARLY.

Yep, continue feeling like suckers! :)
 

NolaMan

Well-known member
Joined
May 5, 2010
Messages
808
Reaction score
203
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
Yep, you are all suckers. Anyone care to share how much money they made on their investments in 2007 and 2008?

Quite alot of people I know still haven't even reached their 401k or investment levels from 2007, even with the boost from the end of 2009. In other words they took a loss. Some are even worse off than that because when "they" "shook the tree" their stop losses kicked in and they lost quite alot money. Not to mention that even if you own stock from the early 80's you have to take into consideration INFLATION and COST OF LIVING CHANGES. Watch your returns drop into the toilet!
I cannot speak for others, but I averaged down the whole market slide, and as it turned out have lost no money due to the recession in that manner.

And 2nd of all, you are all still suckers. Anyone care to venture what % return many business owners see? My buddy consistantly makes 100% - 400% (depending on the season). Anyone here purchase Google when it first came out and see anything close to those returns? Even then, you only made it 1 time, when my friend makes it YEARLY.

Yep, continue feeling like suckers! :)
Many business owners actually go out of business, but congratulations for your friend if that is his rate of return. What is his business model? I too own a business, but do not see 400% returns yearly, although we are profitable.

Putting all of that aside however, you beat inflation currently by making only 3%, and cost of living is most likely offset (depending on your location) by only a few percent more. You don't have to make 100% returns yearly to beat inflation and cost of living increases.
 

Goshin

The Hammer of Chaos
DP Veteran
Joined
Mar 16, 2009
Messages
45,504
Reaction score
50,052
Location
Dixie
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
The next time you meet someone who owns lot's of stock in a "big evil corporation" you shouldn't view them as "the man", you should view them as an idiot.

Why might you ask?

Well, the typical communist myth about how the "big evil corporations" are in charge of everything in the United States and how they will do anything to earn a profit to make their owners rich is a complete lie!

The Owners are Fools
The owners of corporate stock are the biggest suckers out there. Why? Because you can earn more money in a multitude of other investments!

First of all, by owning stock, unless you are in the top 10%, you have no say about what is going on in the company. It's a big huge secret. You might as well put your money into a slot machine, at least there you KNOW that you are going to lose money.

But even those suckers "on the board" are being taken. Anyone know what the AVERAGE dividend is of a stock? Let's run off a few!

Name Price Dividend%
BA 65 2.7
Google 488 0!!
Microsoft 25 2.64
Exxon 61 3

Wow, so I purchase Exxxon stock and I can get back 3% of my investment back, MAYBE! Or if I purchase Google i can get NOTHING BACK.

So if I am big investor, and I see two healthy companies out there, one pays 3% and one pays 0%, why would I purchase the 0%?

RIGHT! There is ZERO reason to do so. All you can do is HOPE some other fool THINKS this bull**** stock is worth something and gives you more for it than you paid for it. And usually they are hoping some fool with give them MORE money than they paid for it.

It's just like flipping homes, except homes actually DO have value. These stocks are practically worthless for many companies.

And anyone want to venture on how this system has worked for homes and stocks as of late?


This is NOT Capitalism!
In the end, the corporations in the United States are NOT capitalistic. They are in fact COMMUNIST. No one makes money off them, and the vast majority should be completely out of business because of inefficiency. In fact many of them just about did that, but were bailed out by "the elite".

So why are they communist? These corporation exist ONLY to provide a cheap working force and to shove money out into the economy in order to drive inflation. As stated before, many of them should be closed, but just like any good communist state they are kept afloat with external cash influx. This is not unlike any old Soviet factory that turns out inefficient tools, or collective farm that is so grotesquely bad that it can barely manage to even grow turnips.

But those cheap workers prevent competition from occuring or TRUE markets from forming, because while they are cruddy turnips, they are cheap and in high number. So entry into the market is suffocated.

The true price of turnips might actually be just a few cents more than the current market price, but even those few cents force many competitive businesses out.

This kills capitalism!

And just like any good communist system, the government official in charge of the factory gets a bigger house/office/ration. The soviets admit that higher level party members recieved "perks". High level military officals had very nice quarters. And just like the soviet countries our high level business leaders get perks! They make them "money rich", but they do not make them "power rich". So who are "they"?


This is NOT Communism!
While the corporations might very well be based on a communist model, the entire system is actually not communist. There IS a wealthy and powerful elite. And they are not the CEO's of major companies and they are not the head of our government. Sorry to break it to you guys, but George Bush Sr and Jr are both CIVIL SERVANTS, they are not the elite.

What system of control has this world seen where there is one small group on top that passes money&power down in their family, while subjugating the rest to hard labor with extreme controls on "social mobility"?

That's right; FEUDALISM!


Pity Your Local Communist
The next time you see someone discussing how we need to change away from capitalism, you can snicker a little at that poor communist.

The next time you hear about "evil corporations" making people "rich", try not to laugh, since owners make NOTHING.

When people scream that we need more government, try to remind them that we already have as big of a government as the soviets EVER had.

When people scream that we need capitalism, they are 100% correct, because we have not seen it in at least 100 years, if it even existed then.

The true communists and socialists in this nation have been fools for almost 60 years. They see big business as their enemy, when the people working in those companies are actually WORKING THE COMMUNIST MODEL.

Their real enemy are the "elite", just like how it was in the Russian Empire. And not one communist today has stood up and declared the proper target for their movement. They consistantly target their own brother's and sister's who struggle to make it by.

Pity these fools! For they are fighting themselves.


So, tell us something about yourself, and why we should consider your opinion on these matters to be valuable.

What is your background? Have you previously been involved in stocks? In business?

Your profile discloses no information. What are your political leanings? May I ask how old you are, or how long you've been
involved in business or finance?

In short, could you give me some information that might persuade me that your views are worth considering?
 

Harry Guerrilla

DP Veteran
Joined
Dec 18, 2008
Messages
28,955
Reaction score
12,423
Location
Not affiliated with other libertarians.
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Libertarian
Yep, you are all suckers. Anyone care to share how much money they made on their investments in 2007 and 2008?

Quite alot of people I know still haven't even reached their 401k or investment levels from 2007, even with the boost from the end of 2009. In other words they took a loss. Some are even worse off than that because when "they" "shook the tree" their stop losses kicked in and they lost quite alot money. Not to mention that even if you own stock from the early 80's you have to take into consideration INFLATION and COST OF LIVING CHANGES. Watch your returns drop into the toilet!

And 2nd of all, you are all still suckers. Anyone care to venture what % return many business owners see? My buddy consistantly makes 100% - 400% (depending on the season). Anyone here purchase Google when it first came out and see anything close to those returns? Even then, you only made it 1 time, when my friend makes it YEARLY.

Yep, continue feeling like suckers! :)
 

d2006

New member
Joined
Jan 15, 2008
Messages
24
Reaction score
3
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
Well if the subject of the post was D2006, I would have started it off as an autobiography.

Fortunetely that is not the subjec to of the post.

It's amazing how many people have avoiding the subject though. Ohh well, this is the internet after all.
 

Harry Guerrilla

DP Veteran
Joined
Dec 18, 2008
Messages
28,955
Reaction score
12,423
Location
Not affiliated with other libertarians.
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Libertarian
Well if the subject of the post was D2006, I would have started it off as an autobiography.

Fortunetely that is not the subjec to of the post.

It's amazing how many people have avoiding the subject though. Ohh well, this is the internet after all.
You have already come to your conclusions, nothing any of us can say would change your mind.
To boot your telling us your buddy makes 100%+, etc.

You're not doing yourself any favors by posting all that nonsense.
 

Deuce

Outer space potato man
DP Veteran
Joined
Feb 6, 2010
Messages
75,078
Reaction score
32,899
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
Wow man you really got us there with your amazing debating prowess.

Tell us more about your... wait what was the point of all this again?

Maybe I should go with the thread title? He thinks there aren't actually any "Big Evil Corporations?"

Enron. Enron was evil. Like, unambiguously evil. To believe that there are NO companies out there that can be described as "Holy ****ing corrupt batman" is pretty naive.
 
Last edited:

d2006

New member
Joined
Jan 15, 2008
Messages
24
Reaction score
3
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
Hey guys, being rude and ignorant is a REALLY bad combination.

My friend owns a catering business. He buys high quality meat at WHOLESALE prices (<$2lb for tenderloin).

Then he sells it at about $15 -$18 / lb at public events and private events. After all the costs are taken into consideration he is at times making a 400% return.

Think those numbers are full of it?

Many restaurants charge you $7 for a hamburger. The white flour is WORTHLESS wholesale. The toppings are too! The meat is the expensive part, and they get it for ~$2/lb (but most of the time much much less). Then they give you 1/3 lb burger and charge you $7 for it... Do the math!

Fast food places can be even worse!

This friend has a significantly better method to invest his money than the stock market, just like many business owners do.

So way to keep civil guys. :) Being rude and ignorant is still a wicked bad combination. Several of you have proven that.
 

Goshin

The Hammer of Chaos
DP Veteran
Joined
Mar 16, 2009
Messages
45,504
Reaction score
50,052
Location
Dixie
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
So far we have a statement, backed up chiefly by anecdotal evidence and unsupported assertions.

I for one would like to know what your background is, so that I can better judge the assertions you are making. Are these assertions entirely home-grown or did they originate with someone else? What experiences have you had that make you a suitable judge of this issue? What sources can you bring to bear to support your assertions?

Clever quips and obvious attempts at deflection are no substitute for a simple honest reply.

How old are you?
Do you have a background in business or investement? If so, how long or to what degree?
Are these assertions entirely your own or did they originate with someone else?

If you answer these questions honestly, I may take you seriously. If you respond with a deflection, then that tells us that something too, and not a good thing.
 

Harry Guerrilla

DP Veteran
Joined
Dec 18, 2008
Messages
28,955
Reaction score
12,423
Location
Not affiliated with other libertarians.
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Libertarian
Hey guys, being rude and ignorant is a REALLY bad combination.

My friend owns a catering business. He buys high quality meat at WHOLESALE prices (<$2lb for tenderloin).

Then he sells it at about $15 -$18 / lb at public events and private events. After all the costs are taken into consideration he is at times making a 400% return.

Think those numbers are full of it?
That's great, I wish your friend all the prosperity that hard work can achieve in his niche business.

Many restaurants charge you $7 for a hamburger. The white flour is WORTHLESS wholesale. The toppings are too! The meat is the expensive part, and they get it for ~$2/lb (but most of the time much much less). Then they give you 1/3 lb burger and charge you $7 for it... Do the math!

Fast food places can be even worse!

This friend has a significantly better method to invest his money than the stock market, just like many business owners do.
I am aware that businesses turn a profit on the materials they use, that is why I invest in their shares.
I get a cut of the profit with the dividend.

Your friends method is like any other method of investing, had he not managed his business well and it had not been in demand.
His potential profits could in the negative.

So way to keep civil guys. :) Being rude and ignorant is still a wicked bad combination. Several of you have proven that.
You're approaching this topic from a position of ignorance, making judgment calls without fully understanding that which you protest.
You then make it out as if we the, generally, well informed denizens of this forum are just foolish and silly for investing in dividend paying stocks.

I've reviewed all sorts of financial advice and read investing information on a near daily basis.
I think I have a firm understanding of whether or not I'm getting screwed on an investment.

Pro Tip: when making an initial argument, it's always good to provide sources and be pithy in your commentary.
Sources include, mainstream media articles and statistical information.
 
Last edited:

d2006

New member
Joined
Jan 15, 2008
Messages
24
Reaction score
3
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
LoL!

Trusting and/or referencing the main stream media is truly an act of a fool!

For example:
In my area of the country the "main stream media" has declared that foreclosures are leveling out and the home market is gaining ground.

Unfortunetly that is a complete lie! Not only do I know caterers, I also know real estate agents/brokers. Guess what? The home market is still in a NOSE DIVE in my area of the country.

There are SEVERAL master planned communities with 300+ homes built within 5 miles of my home that are sitting practically empty. Practically means last time they checked one of them had 2 occupied homes.

On my street alone we have seen 4 foreclosures since March, and 3 more are "in progress".

Nah, I wouldn't use them as a reference accept for in a joke. :)

Example #2:
Anyone remember George Bush Jr's 2nd election?

Well I had both relatives and business contacts in Europe calling me to tell me that Bush had lost the election, early on election day.

The "mainstream media" had reported the loss worldwide! I even remember reading it here in the US! They claimed there was NO WAY he was going to win the election and it was a "sure thing".

Yeah I trust the MSM. :roll:

What I would prefer is a discussion based upon "logic". :) That is exactly how this thread started and exactly how I tried to push it forward.

If corporations don't make money THEN they are not capitalists.

IF we are not capitalists in the US and IF there is still a disparity of wealth THEN we are also not COMMUNISTS.

What system of government encourages poverty on the masses, but collects large amounts of resources for the select few? Feudalism!

Hence, the communist/socialists in this nations are being truly fools.

You would hope someone could bring up a LOGICAL counter argument other than:
"Your stupid"
"I want to see your resume"
"Uh uh"
Or my favorite last couple responses
"I know you are but what am I?"

Remember a "civil" discussion does not discuss the other person. The point is to discuss the "topic".

Discussing the other perons is "non-civil" discussion.

The vast majority of the responses to me have been ad hominem abusive!
 
Last edited:

Goshin

The Hammer of Chaos
DP Veteran
Joined
Mar 16, 2009
Messages
45,504
Reaction score
50,052
Location
Dixie
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
Deflection, again.


Well, my days of not taking you seriously are certainly comin' to a middle.

 

jambalaya

Cynical Optimist
DP Veteran
Joined
May 18, 2010
Messages
2,481
Reaction score
968
Location
Columbia, SC
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Conservative
Well if the subject of the post was D2006, I would have started it off as an autobiography.

Fortunetely that is not the subjec to of the post.

It's amazing how many people have avoiding the subject though. Ohh well, this is the internet after all.
Have you offered a better suggestion for investing your money considering that so few people relatively speaking can be an owner of a business?
 

Gardener

free market communist
DP Veteran
Joined
Sep 5, 2005
Messages
26,661
Reaction score
15,927
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
Deflection, again.


Well, my days of not taking you seriously are certainly comin' to a middle.

Are you looking for Serenity here?
 

ScottD

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 10, 2009
Messages
977
Reaction score
412
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Liberal
Yep, you are all suckers. Anyone care to share how much money they made on their investments in 2007 and 2008?
You are doing it wrong. Basic rule of the Stock Market. When it has been looking like it has been going strong for quite awhile, don't enter it. When the market has hit rock bottom, you buy buy buy.

Also, I doubt you know the definition of Feudulism. Feudulism is a caste structure. An example from the European Feudulism from centuries past:

The King needed advisors and people to help him rule, so he would split his land up for his dukes, each of them getting a chunk of the country. These Dukes, charged with also making sure the King had Knights to fight for him in battle, would hire knights, and give each knight a plot of his own land in exchange for his oath to come to the king's aid if called apon. The Knights would this create little communities on then plot of land, with the knights in charge of it.

That is feudulism.
 
Top Bottom