The Mob

[Overitall]

Really? According to William Barr, Trump orchestrated the mob. Trump was utterly giddy in the White House watching the mob storm the capital and could understand why others around him were not as giddy as he was. He even held up the National Guard for 3 hours. Even when he finally asked the mob to go home, you know once he realized it he could be in legal jeopardy himself, he told them he loved them and called those that they were committing violence on his behalf against "evil".

This is what Trump told supporters before many stormed Capitol Hill

Many who participated in the chaos as the U.S. Capitol building went under attack on Wednesday came straight from a rally held by President Donald Trump.

abcnews.go.com

I know that everyone here will soon be marching over to the Capitol building to peacefully and patriotically make your voices heard.

Show me one place in his speech that day that told the mob it was ok to riot and break into the Capital building? If I got even the slightest inkling that he was inciting people to do what they did I would be disgusted. People are gonna misinterpret the meaning of words and do crazy shit. I don't condone what they did. In fact I think anyone who stepped inside the building deserves to be prosecuted to the full extent of the law. I doubt you're see any Republicans setting up a fund to bail them out of jail.

As it was what got me to turn my back on him was his attack on Mike Pence. A man who served him well but had a Constitution duty. That was inexcusable.

 

[ALiberalModerate]

This is what Trump told supporters before many stormed Capitol Hill

Many who participated in the chaos as the U.S. Capitol building went under attack on Wednesday came straight from a rally held by President Donald Trump.

abcnews.go.com

Show me one place in his speech that day that told the mob it was ok to riot and break into the Capital building? If I got even the slightest inkling that he was inciting people to do what they did I would be disgusted. People are gonna misinterpret the meaning of words and do crazy shit. I don't condone what they did. In fact I think anyone who stepped inside the building deserves to be prosecuted to the full extent of the law. I doubt you're see any Republicans setting up a fund to bail them out of jail.

As it was what got me to turn my back on him was his attack on Mike Pence. A man who served him well but had a Constitution duty. That was inexcusable.

He incited them with lies for 2 months. Pence lying to them right alongside him. They even had t-shirts printed calling it another revolution. This didn't just happen in a vacuum. Let me ask you this, had Trump not fed his supporters lies and conspiracy theories for the past 2 months following his election loss, would the capital have been attacked? Answer honestly.

 

[Overitall]

He incited them with lies for 2 months. Pence lying to them right alongside him. They even had t-shirts printed calling it another revolution. This didn't just happen in a vacuum. Let me ask you this, had Trump not fed his supporters lies and conspiracy theories for the past 2 months following his election loss, would the capital have been attacked? Answer honestly.

Your argument only holds water if you can show where a vast majority of the 74+ million Trump supporters rose up to insurrection. You can't, and refuse to acknowledge that not all Trump supporters thought the "lie" rose to the point of rioting. A challenge on the floor of Congress over the contested States election? Sure. The lie can be countered with the truth. Not censorship, nor violence.

 

[ALiberalModerate]

Your argument only holds water if you can show where a vast majority of the 74+ million Trump supporters rose up to insurrection. You can't, and refuse to acknowledge that not all Trump supporters thought the "lie" rose to the point of rioting. A challenge on the floor of Congress over the contested States election? Sure. The lie can be countered with the truth. Not censorship, nor violence.

You are arguing a straw man. Let's say that 5 million Americans believe all or part of the QAnon conspiracy. Not all of them will act on it, in fact, just a small percentage will, but that doesn't mean such a lie isn't dangerous.

The problem with a president telling dangerous lies and promoting dangerous conspiracy theories, is not that all of his voters will be willing to commit violence on his behalf, it's that a small percentage will, and a plurality will either excuse or minimize that violence because they hold the same views, they just didn't act on them.

 

[Overitall]

You are arguing a straw man. Let's say that 5 million Americans believe all or part of the QAnon conspiracy. Not all of them will act on it, in fact, just a small percentage will, but that doesn't mean such a lie isn't dangerous.

The problem with a president telling dangerous lies and promoting dangerous conspiracy theories, is not that all of his voters will be willing to commit violence on his behalf, it's that a small percentage will, and a plurality will either excuse or minimize that violence because they hold the same views, they just didn't act on them.

Strawman? When have I said a lie isn't dangerous?

 

[Eriech]

What fricken short memories we have. What happened last week was a glee club meeting compared to 4 years ago. 1/2 a miilion or so Trump supporters showed up to encourage their government to do the right thing. A few got carried away. None that entered the building heard Trump's speach. No one anywhere heard Trump incite anything.

Trump inauguration protest damages parts of downtown Washington

There were also demonstrations in Portland, New Orleans, New York and Atlanta

www.cbsnews.com

 

[Overitall]

What fricken short memories we have. What happened last week was a glee club meeting compared to 4 years ago. 1/2 a miilion or so Trump supporters showed up to encourage their government to do the right thing. A few got carried away. None that entered the building heard Trump's speach. No one anywhere heard Trump incite anything.

Trump inauguration protest damages parts of downtown Washington

There were also demonstrations in Portland, New Orleans, New York and Atlanta

www.cbsnews.com

The argument will be that it wasn't in the Capital building where members of Congress were conducting the certification of Biden as the next POTUS.

 

[ALiberalModerate]

Strawman? When have I said a lie isn't dangerous?

Your argument seem to be that if all of Trump's supporters are not willing to commit violence on his behalf, that he can't be responsible for some of them committing violence on his behalf. That is a strawman.

 

[Overitall]

Your argument seem to be that if all of Trump's supporters are not willing to commit violence on his behalf, that he can't be responsible for some of them committing violence on his behalf. That is a strawman.

No my argument has been this:
A lie told by someone caused another to commit an act of violence.

The same lie told to someone else did not cause that person to commit an act of violence.

The law of cause and effect is a universal law.

Therefore, if the cause (the lie) did not produce the same effect (the act of violence) in both people the cause cannot be the lie. The cause must be due to something else.

 

[ALiberalModerate]

No my argument has been this:
A lie told by someone caused another to commit an act of violence.

The same lie told to someone else did not cause that person to commit an act of violence.

The law of cause and effect is a universal law.

Therefore, if the cause (the lie) did not produce the same effect (the act of violence) in both people the cause cannot be the lie. The cause must be due to something else.

Okay, sorry man but that is about as flawed of an argument that I have ever seen.

Mao was venerated by the peasantry in China in the 50s, 60s, and 70s. They believed every lie he told them. Yet, only a small percentage of them actually participated in the violence of the Cultural Revolution. So by your reasoning, those that did could not have been instigated to violence by Mao because not everyone that believed his lies went on to commit violence on his behalf. Because as you say the law of cause and effect is a universal law (hint, the law of cause and effect does not produce the same reaction on every entity). For example, one kid can grow up in an abusive home and as a result, have substance abuse issues their entire life. Others might go on to abuse their kids. Still, another might go on to be very successful and a kind parent because they want to rise above their childhood and provide a good home for their kids. The point being, "causes" impact different people in different ways.

Frankly, you are making absurd arguments to defend an utterly despicable man. Why resort to that?

 

[code1211]

I think many of these people are driven by fear. They fear their guns will be taken. They fear Illegal immigrants will take their jobs. They fear socialism. They fear their freedoms will be taken away. They fear big brother. They fear the country is turning less white.

The media and politicians are the spreaders of this fear so that’s how I voted.

You voted for the media, the fear or both?

 

[Overitall]

Okay, sorry man but that is about as flawed of an argument that I have ever seen.

Mao was venerated by the peasantry in China in the 50s, 60s, and 70s. They believed every lie he told them. Yet, only a small percentage of them actually participated in the violence of the Cultural Revolution. So by your reasoning, those that did could not have been instigated to violence by Mao because not everyone that believed his lies went on to commit violence on his behalf. Because as you say the law of cause and effect is a universal law (hint, the law of cause and effect does not produce the same reaction on every entity). For example, one kid can grow up in an abusive home and as a result, have substance abuse issues their entire life. Others might go on to abuse their kids. Still, another might go on to be very successful and a kind parent because they want to rise above their childhood and provide a good home for their kids. The point being, "causes" impact different people in different ways.

Frankly, you are making absurd arguments to defend an utterly despicable man. Why resort to that?

The one element missing from your attempted rebuttal is choice/decision. I don’t think you really understand the law of cause and effect. Your rebuttal indicates it.

 

[ALiberalModerate]

The one element missing from your attempted rebuttal is choice/decision. I don’t think you really understand the law of cause and effect. Your rebuttal indicates it.

Your argument is ridiculous at this point.

 

[Overitall]

Your argument is ridiculous at this point.

Then we will have agree to disagree. Thanks for your time.

 

[Mika-El]

Define "Trump mob."

Trump protesters were at the Capital because they believe the election was stolen by Joe Biden's confessed "greatest election fraud organization in USA history." Accordingly, they were there to protest the elect fraud coup taking over the government. That is called patriotism.

I would search for the hundreds of quotes of Democratic officials including Kamala Harris, VP-elect and the highest ranking Democrat in the USA Chuck Schumer saying that protesting is not pretty and is patriotic - but it wouldn't matter because intellectual dishonesty and pure hypocrisy is standard operating principles of the Democratic Party.

Bottom line is, we had a mob of people who believed the laws of their nation did not apply to them and felt they could break the law by engaging in trespass, physical violence and property damage and deliberately showing contempt for the very symbols of the state they claim to care about. You see no irony in that.

You call blind devotion to Trump, patriotism. Most of us call it criminal behaviour. We know the difference between Trump and the United States nation. You clearly do not.

You think a man who spits at everything the US laws stand is your excuse to piss on the US and then call it patriotism which refers to idolizing a state not an individual.

You don't love your country. You never did. You have nothing but hatred and contempt for your country and fellow citizens and that is why you love Trump and your imagined fellow cult members. You are no patriot. You are a Trump cult worshipper. You idolize and defend Trump not your nation. You defend people who urinated on everything your nation stands for precisely because they are NOT patriots but cowards.

 

[Mika-El]

Hey now in a few days Putin's boy will be a bad smell slowly dissipating while like clock-work the very cowards that allowd Trump to control their party and goverment will resurface posing as anti Trump. ASs the months go to years Trump will take on a memory no different than any other pathetic tyrant. No legacy just bad memories for people to express dismay over and try pretend they would never have supported. He will become a new lightening rod for what is ugly.

 

[skeptic llc]

So you are saying the 75 million voters are by majority racist? Really? How many of these voters do you think voted for Obama? Suddenly half the country have turned racist? lol.....

Seems likely, yes. Again, racial animosity is a very strong predictor of support for Trump. Don't take my word for it, google can show you the way to studies.

 

[skeptic llc]

IMO the reason why Trump was able to develop a cult like following was/is because many white working class Americans have felt disenfranchised from the political scene, unrepresented and abandoned by it. And the truth is they have. What they fail to realize though, is that the people they are being guided to blame for this situation, people of colour, preceded their abandonment with their own abandonment and , it is arguable, were never represented by that system.

As the hits from decades of neoliberalism started to hit people more deeply than ever and their lives got more and more desperate those in power realize that there has been a shift in how people of all sides are viewing their performance and so they do what all experienced elites do, they set person against person in classic divide and rule fashion. And you only have to look at the polarization of people who make up the 99% to know how well these tactics have been working.

Well said.

 

[skeptic llc]

They were Trump supporters. There is no difference at all in the beliefs of the average guy that violently stormed the capital, and frankly the typical ardent Trump supporter on here. The only difference between them is a willingness to engage in violence on Trump's behalf, that's it.

Seems that way. That's why I've lost interest in even seeking dialogue with Trumpers -- it's a deliberately misinformed, hateful cult, nothing more.

 

[skeptic llc]

You send in your lfie time a qualification I understand. For say someone born in the days where they lived through World Two, nuclear cold war, etc., it may not be. Certainly it presented a unique example of domestic violence connected directly to the egging on of a sitting President who for two months made accusations the election he lost was rigged with zero evidence culminating in an address urging people to gead to the capital. It would be hard for anyone who is rational to believe the words of Trump and Guliani did not incite violence. When Guiliani said "trial by combat" and Trump directed people to head to the while house to challenge the election results for him to say he would expect that crowd to be well behaved or to call them beautiful people was beyond the pale.

Are those people who were manipulated and caused vandalism the biggest threat to democracy-no. The biggest threat to democracy are those Republicans and Americans who for the last 5 years have made excuses for Trump's behaviour and/or remained silent. People like Trump become threats to democracy because we the people in this case American citizens, stay silent and whether they are elected officials, government officials or just people, for many reasons they remain silent. That silence is used as a platform to legitimize intolerant behaviour. If we remain silent its a tactit approval. To many Republicans stayed silent and its a little late now for someone of them to suddenly notice how unstable Trump was, especially Mitch Maconell, Pence, and so on.

They threatened democracy by enabling Trump to do what he did. Another example, Ted Cruz. That dispicable excuse of a human stood up and tried to exploit the anger of Trump to place himself in a position of self interest so that after Trump leaves he could get Trumps upporters to like him. Pathetic.

I did not live through WWII, but I was a cold war kid. However, I guess I think of that more as a threat to humanity than to democracy, although obviously if we wipe out the planet there is no democracy.

I do view the threat posed (or exposed) by Trump to be much broader than that riot. It is a massive segment of the populace that is ignorant, deliberately misled by media sources, playing right into the script Russia would write for us, viewing their desired outcome as more important than any rules of democracy or civil society. Complicit politicians can always be found, and under Trump even those who would prefer not to be complicit often found themselves doing so, first out of fear of their voters and more recently out of fear of outright violence from nutty Trumpers if they step out of line.

 

[oneworld2]

Seems that way. That's why I've lost interest in even seeking dialogue with Trumpers -- it's a deliberately misinformed, hateful cult, nothing more.

This story might interest you and lend some support to the post I made about how race replaced focus on the elite. It is applicable to events in the US wrt the Trump situation. Some food for thought regarding engaging with Trumps base.

Some years ago , I was a member of a different forum and at the time there was a surge in xenophobia in the country( the UK ) due to a rise in immigration from eastern Europe. A political party called the British National Party ( BNP ) started to both stoke the fires and seek the support from doing so with groing numbers of new members. The lefties on that forum used to hate me engaging in debates with BNP members and thought a no platform/no engagement policy was they way to deal with them. I disagreed and thought the strategy was sure to backfire so I ignored the moans and constant PMs for me to desist.

My argument was that because I lived in an area, predominantly white working class, I actually understood that some of the grievances BNP members expressed were valid, even if they had been duped into blaming it on the wrong people, the immigrant community. The danger in not acknowledging this and dismissing everything as being borne of racism is a mistake imo and a mistake that leads to further extremism that then becomes entrenched. This explains the situation with the Trump base imho. and that's why it is crucial to maintain the dialogue even in the most difficult of circumstances. The horse may have already bolted on both sides of the Atlantic with the embracing of Trump and the insanity of Brexit but we can only keep trying to halt the ugly lurch towards racist/fascist type movements as they appear in a hope to undermine them.

I used to tell the BNP members that their political party was, in fact ,an illegal outfit, which it was. They replied that if this was the case, instead of the media often condemning them the state would just enforce a closing down operation to put an end to them. I told them that this will happen only when they have enough numbers to actually effect the general elections but for the time being they are serving as a useful vent for the effects of immigration. Some years later they gained significant support in the elections and the government moved to close them down and that was that.

The noral of the story to me is that it is better to engage with those whose views you dislike, or may even hate, in order to ward off a worse situation further down the road. We got Brexit, you got Trump., let's hope it doesn't get any worse before it gets better and dialogue is the only way forward imho

 

[ttwtt78640]

Obviously I'm not trying to get the opinions of those who think their opponents are blood-drinking satanists here. (Or the opinions of flat earthers, snake worshipers, etc.)

But for the rest of us, what is the primary source of this widespread madness? We are overrun with anti-freedom crazies, where did they come from?

Who, exactly, do you consider as being in (a member of?) “the Trump mob”?

 

[it's just me]

Seems likely, yes. Again, racial animosity is a very strong predictor of support for Trump. Don't take my word for it, google can show you the way to studies.

Beats thinking for yourself...

 

[VySky]

Seems likely, yes. Again, racial animosity is a very strong predictor of support for Trump. Don't take my word for it, google can show you the way to studies.

There's a problem. Trusting Google

 

[Jason Warfield]

The Trump mob are a group of very frightened people who want to "go back to the good old days".

A driving force behind the mob are older whites who can remember a time when minorities knew their place and that it was understood that whites were to be on top. Coupled with younger generations who are literally taught racism. And what makes them different, or rather the mob for Trump, is the idea that they are now the victims in a society that is VERY slowly letting minorities be true, equal citizens. They feel that the power is being taken away from them (and in a sense, it is) and as a result, they will be the losers and victims that they always had portrayed minorities to be in the past.

This started with the Tea Party idiots during Obama's administration. As society shifted and said what everyone honestly already knew; all are equal in America and you don't get to be a bigot and/or racist and get away with it anymore...the Boomers and other Tea Partiers lamented the fact that they had to share power with people they deemed inferior. Trump, in 2016, would tap into this and ride the wave.

You can't be delusional if you decided on willful ignorance. Right wing media shot up during Obama's terms because they were feeding into a large audience that wanted to hear that they were the victims, that their way of viewing the world was still okay and that everyone else is just jealous and trying to pull them down.

Then comes in Trump...who gives them EXACTLY what they want to hear. Nothing is their fault. They are being held down by the radical left and the minorities. They are the only true patriots. They are the victims. Everyone else who isn't them is the enemy, even if they are a fellow citizen. Above all....they want to win, to be winners, not losers...and they saw the salvation, and still do, of winning at all costs through Trump. Trump told them all of this and that winning was paramount to all things.

So, if you feel like a loser. Even if you aren't one. Or particularly if you are one due to your own actions, it sounds good to have a leader who says that the reason why you a loser is because of something and someone else, that your actions aren't to blame. It sounds and feels good when you feel things slipping out of your control to have someone like Trump tell you are a winner and you are being held back by....them.

That is who this mob is: people who are scared of losing power, who erroneously think they are victims and are so damn desperate not to be a loser that they are willing to be a winner....even if it means cheating and destroying your own nation.

Or to put it in a cruder context, the Trump mob is like the guy who beats his wife: he does it to instill fear and to create power for himself because he is projecting his own failures in his life that lead him to be powerless and a loser on the wife...and after beating her, tells her its her fault that he has to beat her. That's the sad truth of the Trump mob.