The Minimum Wage

[phattonez]

Easy for others to judge, if they don't have to write out that pay check themselves. --I'm not sure I even get minimum wage, when everything is sorted out.

Neither are self-proprietors required to give themselves a minimum wage.

 

[Skateguy]

Neither are self-proprietors required to give themselves a minimum wage.

I just take what ever is left, minus expenses and taxes. which is usually enough for a twelve pack, and a Slim Jim.

 

[phattonez]

I just take what ever is left, minus expenses and taxes. which is usually enough for a twelve pack, and a Slim Jim.

Are you an entrepreneur?

 

[cpwill]

They forgot the poor white workers, but then they didn't want them to succeed, either

unfortunately you are again sadly incorrect; the law was written to help poor white workers, by keeping poor colored workers from underbidding their labor. the theory was that if employers had to pay an equal amount, then they would rather hire a white guy than a black or asian guy.

Our economy has had a lot happen since 1931, and I really don't believe the old progressives got it right with the MW.

they got quite alot wrong, but this is one of the things they got right; probably because it is so very basic. literally, it is supply and demand; any high-school economics student could tell you the answer to this issue. people just go nuts because it's about "labor" as opposed to (say) "oranges".

This group needs to go for job training.

work for this group is job training. that is probably one of if not the biggest compensation they get from holding a low-paying job.

What you're saying has nothing to do with the MW.

again, to the contrary, the group that i am discussing is discriminated against by the MW, because it permanently locks them out of our legitimate economy.

Was this due to the numbers population-wise?

nope. the unemployment rate for comparative ethnicities in the same age cohort has remained fairly constant.

If you're employed making a dollar an hour how is that going to benefit you?

well.... this sort of seems like a slap-the-forehead-moment, but it seems to me that a dollar an hour is better than nothing an hour; especially given that the dollar an hour comes attached to non-tangible goods.

How will that help you move from the service industry?

i really don't get that part; what's wrong with the service industry.

It didn't help anybody that's why they tried a MW.

again, to the contrary. as i have already demonstrated for you; the original purpose of the MW was to deliberately limit the demand for labor. now the pressure behind it is largely to increase the income of union members (who's contracts are often tied to multiples of the minimum wage); which i suppose fulfills the same function.

I think the impact has been neutral.

50 years of wage research begs to disagree

# The minimum wage reduces employment.

Currie and Fallick (1993), Gallasch (1975), Gardner (1981), Peterson (1957), Peterson and Stewart (1969).

# The minimum wage reduces employment more among teenagers than adults.

Adie (1973); Brown, Gilroy and Kohen (1981a, 1981b); Fleisher (1981); Hammermesh (1982); Meyer and Wise (1981, 1983a); Minimum Wage Study Commission (1981); Neumark and Wascher (1992); Ragan (1977); Vandenbrink (1987); Welch (1974, 1978); Welch and Cunningham (1978).

# The minimum wage reduces employment most among black teenage males.

Al-Salam, Quester, and Welch (1981), Iden (1980), Mincer (1976), Moore (1971), Ragan (1977), Williams (1977a, 1977b).

# The minimum wage helped South African whites at the expense of blacks.

Bauer (1959).

# The minimum wage hurts blacks generally.

Behrman, Sickles and Taubman (1983); Linneman (1982).

# The minimum wage hurts the unskilled.

Krumm (1981).

# The minimum wage hurts low wage workers.

Brozen (1962), Cox and Oaxaca (1986), Gordon (1981).

# The minimum wage hurts low wage workers particularly during cyclical downturns.

Kosters and Welch (1972), Welch (1974).

# The minimum wage increases job turnover.

Hall (1982).

# The minimum wage reduces average earnings of young workers.

Meyer and Wise (1983b).

# The minimum wage drives workers into uncovered jobs, thus lowering wages in those sectors.

Brozen (1962), Tauchen (1981), Welch (1974).

# The minimum wage reduces employment in low-wage industries, such as retailing.

Cotterman (1981), Douty (1960), Fleisher (1981), Hammermesh (1981), Peterson (1981).

# The minimum wage hurts small businesses generally.

Kaun (1965).

# The minimum wage causes employers to cut back on training.

Hashimoto (1981, 1982), Leighton and Mincer (1981), Ragan (1981).

# The minimum wage has long-term effects on skills and lifetime earnings.

Brozen (1969), Feldstein (1973).

# The minimum wage leads employers to cut back on fringe benefits.

McKenzie (1980), Wessels (1980).

# The minimum wage encourages employers to install labor-saving devices.

Trapani and Moroney (1981).

# The minimum wage hurts low-wage regions, such as the South and rural areas.

Colberg (1960, 1981), Krumm (1981).

# The minimum wage increases the number of people on welfare.

Brandon (1995), Leffler (1978).

# The minimum wage hurts the poor generally.

Stigler (1946).

# The minimum wage does little to reduce poverty.

Bonilla (1992), Brown (1988), Johnson and Browning (1983), Kohen and Gilroy (1981), Parsons (1980), Smith and Vavrichek (1987).

# The minimum wage helps upper income families.

Bell (1981), Datcher and Loury (1981), Johnson and Browning (1981), Kohen and Gilroy (1981).

# The minimum wage helps unions.

Linneman (1982), Cox and Oaxaca (1982).
# The minimum wage lowers the capital stock.

McCulloch (1981).

# The minimum wage increases inflationary pressure.

Adams (1987), Brozen (1966), Gramlich (1976), Grossman (1983).

# The minimum wage increases teenage crime rates.

Hashimoto (1987), Phillips (1981).

# The minimum wage encourages employers to hire illegal aliens.

Beranek (1982).

# Few workers are permanently stuck at the minimum wage.

Brozen (1969), Smith and Vavrichek (1992).

# The minimum wage has had a massive impact on unemployment in Puerto Rico.

Freeman and Freeman (1991), Rottenberg (1981b).

# The minimum wage has reduced employment in foreign countries.

Canada: Forrest (1982); Chile: Corbo (1981); Costa Rica: Gregory (1981); France: Rosa (1981).

Most jobs no longer pay the MW from what I've seen when job-hunting.

exactly. employers are motorizing as many low-level functions as possible, and entry level positions are limited due to a price floor which creates an artificial lack of demand.

They pay more, and I think the MW did that to a degree

actually by providing a brake on growth; the MW reduces average income per capita over time.

To me the "market level" is allowing businesses to pay next to nothing for many lower or entry level jobs

well to Roosevelt it meant holding wages and prices at 25% above what they would have been naturally. in other words, he lowered demand for labor to the tune of 25% and raised prices on things like food by a comparable amount in the middle of the Great Depression. it not only puts people out of work; it raises the cost of living for those now unemployed.

Most of these companies can afford to pay more, but won't unless the govt makes them. That's what I've always seen.

of course they could afford to pay more.

for fewer workers.

which is what they will have if the MW increases.

because they will fire the ones whose labor they deem no longer worth the cost.

The self checkouts keep a certain number of people employed, and mostly higher pay.

yeah, the higher-end labor that makes them. on the lower end, it allows one checkout worker to take the place of four (which means the other three are now out on the street; but as a low-skill set, they are the kind who are least likely to be able to get those jobs building such machines). one of the many perversities of the MW is that it tends to funnel resources from the poor to the upper middle class.

But....it didn't do away with cashiers. Walmart has as many cashiers as it always did from looking around

unfortunately incorrect; in fact the drop in employment (which began a couple of months after the passing of the minimum wage hike a couple of years ago) began with these low-skill workers; and they remain the hardest hit today.

so at the most it may have eliminated a couple jobs here and there. Walmart had probably been eyeing this sort of thing for years

it absolutely has; just as the cigarette companies have patents on the shelf for marijuana cigarettes, just in case the law ever changes, Walmart and other such industries would be fools not to plan for political hikes in the MW.

Do you think many companies go overseas for labor because of the MW.

that plus our tax code, plus our regulatory burden. we (stupidly) deliberately make it hard to hire Americans.

Do you think the MW put a lot of companies out of business?

not really. probably some, labor is usually the biggest single cost for small businesses. it just generally lowers their demand for labor.

Those 5 teenagers need to be home studying, so they can get a better job when the time for full employment comes.

assuming that their parents are doing just fine, yes. but if they are among the most vulnerable of our population, then it is likely that their family needs that income; and they will get it one way (legally) or the other.

Businesses should be able to pay employees who put in 8 hours a day a decent wage, otherwise they shouldn't be in business.

a moralistic statement that is good in intent; but nonetheless harms those whom it intends to help.

Many business owners used to cry poor mouth, so they could keep all the profits for themselves

if that was the case then they probably went out of business.

and the schmucks who worked for them seriously got tired of hearing all the dime store blues when their boss drove a Cadillac.

at which point they quit and went to work for someone who would pay them a better wage, and the ole boss could only hire those who weren't willing to work hard or much; at which point his business suffered compared to his competitor who was paying his old employee more; who eventually then drove him out of business.

I know, I know, the boss takes all the risk, but still that doesn't mean he should take advantage of good employees.

nor should employees use the coercive power of the state to try to take advantage of their employers.

 

[phattonez]

i really don't get that part; what's wrong with the service industry.

People think that wealth consists only of tangible things.

 

[Vader]

The market should set the wages. IMO, some think minimum wage should be a livalble income. When I started working, minimum wage was considered to be an entry level wage. It was for young people to be able to work and learn skills and work ethics. Somehow along the way it has evolved for some to think that they should be able to live from it. This should not be the case. Minimum wage should be done away with. Employees will get what the market will support.

WRONG.

Minimum wage was created to prevent big business scumbags from raping their employees. This law keeps unscrupulous assbag business pricks from offer underpaying people.

Minum wage is here to stay no matter how many greedy douchebag business owners want it gone.

 

[phattonez]

WRONG.

Minimum wage was created to prevent big business scumbags from raping their employees. This law keeps unscrupulous assbag business pricks from offer underpaying people.

Minum wage is here to stay no matter how many greedy douchebag business owners want it gone.

:rofl, Vader, you're always good for a laugh. See, a business can't rape unless someone let's them rape, and at that point you can't call it rape. Something about consent. Oh no, I've gone and blurred two concepts and somehow came up with a good argument.

 

[cpwill]

didn't you know, phattonez? before MW laws, businesses used to go around kidnapping people and forcing them to take entry level positions at a dollar a day sweeping floors.

 

[FreshlyMinted]

WRONG.

Minimum wage was created to prevent big business scumbags from raping their employees. This law keeps unscrupulous assbag business pricks from offer underpaying people.

Minum wage is here to stay no matter how many greedy douchebag business owners want it gone.

Woah woah woah, Let's be clear. I want the min wage gone at least for the time being and I am by no stretch of the imagination a business owner. I just want to be able to sell my time for less than someone with more experience so that I can build a job résumé and escape the need a job to get experience/can't get a job without experience connundrum

 

[Skateguy]

Are you an entrepreneur?

I wish. I'm just a guy trying to run a Skate Shop, and keep my lights turned on. But through the years, I have learned to live within my means. :mrgreen:

 

[phattonez]

I wish. I'm just a guy trying to run a Skate Shop, and keep my lights turned on. But through the years, I have learned to live within my means. :mrgreen:

Well if you own a business, you sound like an entrepreneur to me. I things start to get better. I wouldn't want to take on that kind of risk, so more power to you. :thumbs:

 

[Skateguy]

WRONG.

Minimum wage was created to prevent big business scumbags from raping their employees. This law keeps unscrupulous assbag business pricks from offer underpaying people.

Minum wage is here to stay no matter how many greedy douchebag business owners want it gone.

In theory your contention sounds fine. But once an employer must pay more than a person is actually worth on a particular job, he must add that expense to the price of his products. So at some point, the consumer picks up the tab for the employee. How else can it be done? If the employer was in a position to pay more, he would, with out it being mandated. All employers are not crooks, as hard as that may be to believe. some are just getting by as it is. ---I can't afford to hire anyone the way things are now.

 

[phattonez]

In theory your contention sounds fine. But once an employer must pay more than a person is actually worth on a particular job, he must add that expense to the price of his products. So at some point, the consumer picks up the tab for the employee. How else can it be done? If the employer was in a position to pay more, he would, with out it being mandated. All employers are not crooks, as hard as that may be to believe. some are just getting by as it is. ---I can't afford to hire anyone the way things are now.

If an employer could get away with charging higher prices for his goods then he would. The price he charges now maximizes the number of purchases time the prices. Minimum wage does not change that point of maximum revenue.

 

[Lord Tammerlain]

People think that wealth consists only of tangible things.

That is because it does

Non tangible things do not increase wealth

Services are not wealth

What services may provide is greater economic utility but they do not create wealth in any way shape or form.

Generally services consume a persons wealth rather then create it. The only real exception is with restoration services

Example

A hair cut does not create wealth, nor does colouring your hair. It transfers wealth (money in the case) from your pocket to the person providing the hair cut. The person providing the hair cut had their wealth increase. You got a hair cut

Your economic utility will have temporarily gone up (you felt the hair cut had more value to you then did the wealth it cost you)

 

[Lord Tammerlain]

If an employer could get away with charging higher prices for his goods then he would. The price he charges now maximizes the number of purchases time the prices. Minimum wage does not change that point of maximum revenue.

And no employeer worth anything is going to hire more people to do work then he needs.


Walmart is not going to hire 20 people to clean the floors when 5 can do it. So if min wage was dropped Walmart is not going to go out and hire thousands of extra floor cleaners just because they are cheaper. It will keep the same number of floor cleaners and just pay them less.

Only in the case where the min wage is high enough that any new business that would be created by having the new employee, would not cover the expense of the new employee would the min wage effect jobs

 

[Skateguy]

If an employer could get away with charging higher prices for his goods then he would. The price he charges now maximizes the number of purchases time the prices. Minimum wage does not change that point of maximum revenue.

Not in my case. I add a small mark up on my goods, and pass that on to my customers. I have almost a monopoly on what I do, so could charge just about whatever I chose to charge. but I don't operate that way. I started out with a philosophy of how I wanted to operate my little business, and have not deviated from that goal in nearly 30 years. I provide complimentary service after the sale. the product price is pretty much set. Which, in spite of me not making much money, is why I am a very rich Man.

 

[cpwill]

That is because it does

Non tangible things do not increase wealth

man, even Lenin had to admit that one wasn't right. non-tangible items that increase wealth include knowledge, systems, administrative model, management, and so forth. you can't have a business with no administrator, and administration is a non-tangible item.

 

[phattonez]

That is because it does

Non tangible things do not increase wealth

If I had all the computers in the world but no one knew how to fix them then those computers would be worthless. Services are wealth.

 

[phattonez]

And no employeer worth anything is going to hire more people to do work then he needs.


Walmart is not going to hire 20 people to clean the floors when 5 can do it. So if min wage was dropped Walmart is not going to go out and hire thousands of extra floor cleaners just because they are cheaper. It will keep the same number of floor cleaners and just pay them less.

Only in the case where the min wage is high enough that any new business that would be created by having the new employee, would not cover the expense of the new employee would the min wage effect jobs

What about jobs that we don't have now because the minimum wage is so high? Those training/entry-level positions that don't exist because they're just not worth it. What about those?

 

[Lord Tammerlain]

If I had all the computers in the world but no one knew how to fix them then those computers would be worthless. Services are wealth.

Really

Services are not wealth

Services can create wealth

An artist with amazing skills does not creat anywealth untill he creates some art.

The computer tech that fixes the computer increases the wealth potential of the computers, not of his own services. Once the computer tech gets paid his wealth increases, and the owner of the computers wealth may have incresed or decreased depending on how much he paid, compared to how much the computers increased in value


A law degree is worthless by itself, the person with it has to work to ensure that it may increase the wealth of the person that has it. And a person's work is not wealth. They are trading their work for wealth

 

[Lord Tammerlain]

What about jobs that we don't have now because the minimum wage is so high? Those training/entry-level positions that don't exist because they're just not worth it. What about those?

Ever heard of intern positions?


People who want to learn on the job can always take internships (provided they can afford to work for nothing for a long period of time.

 

[phattonez]

Really

Services are not wealth

Services can create wealth

An artist with amazing skills does not creat anywealth untill he creates some art.

The computer tech that fixes the computer increases the wealth potential of the computers, not of his own services. Once the computer tech gets paid his wealth increases, and the owner of the computers wealth may have incresed or decreased depending on how much he paid, compared to how much the computers increased in value


A law degree is worthless by itself, the person with it has to work to ensure that it may increase the wealth of the person that has it. And a person's work is not wealth. They are trading their work for wealth

A car wash increases my wealth. I like driving around in a clean car and it prevents damage to the exterior.

 

[phattonez]

Ever heard of intern positions?


People who want to learn on the job can always take internships (provided they can afford to work for nothing for a long period of time.

Intern positions are usually only for people looking to get a pretty good job. What if you have no education? You're probably not looking to be an intern.

 

[Lord Tammerlain]

A car wash increases my wealth. I like driving around in a clean car and it prevents damage to the exterior.

No it protects your wealth. By spending some wealth to preserve the functionality of the car you are keeping the overall wealth that is the car at a higher leve

The wealth is in the car not the car wash

The car you can sell,

Can you sell the car wash after you have gotten it?

 

[phattonez]

No it protects your wealth. By spending some wealth to preserve the functionality of the car you are keeping the overall wealth that is the car at a higher leve

The wealth is in the car not the car wash

The car you can sell,

Can you sell the car wash after you have gotten it?

I'd rather drive a nice looking car than an ugly looking car. Having a clean car is something I want. I'll pay for a service to make it clean. The service makes me better off. Wealth has been created.