The lesser of two evils, china and america.

[soylentgreen]

On one hand china is conducting a war in the pacifica. But it is not a war of guns and soldiers. it is a war of economics. One where failing any other offers, island nations are accepting trade and china's presence in their countries.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...-nations-on-security-policing-and-data-report

China will pursue a Pacific-wide deal with almost a dozen island nations covering policing, security and data communications cooperation when the foreign minister, Wang Yi, hosts a meeting in Fiji next week, documents show.

On the other hand we have america who have done nothing to indicate that they understand that this is an economic war and not a military one. Recent talks with new zealand prime minister only emphasises that biden is thinking military aide ,not economic.
https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/poli...nalyst-s-warning-to-tread-very-carefully.html

A defence analyst says New Zealand has entered new, dangerous waters getting closer to the US - whose focus in the Pacific is security and defence, rather than Aotearoa's neighbourly concerns of climate change and fisheries.
"It [the US] sees it as an arena for great power of competition. It sees it as a place where military conflict is a possibility and that differs from NZ's perspective," analyst Paul Buchanan says.
Asked if New Zealand was on track to becoming full military allies with the US, Mahuta says: "I think that's reading a lot into that statement".

So which is the lesser evil here? America trying to win heart and mind by sending in the military, or is that even a consideration. Or china's with life long loans that will build infrastructure and improve living conditions and put the counties in china's pocket.

 

[Allan]

China has been doing this in Africa for decades. Go into a country and build highways, hospitals and schools, then get preferred access to resources. They do it this way because it works.

I don't know if I would excuse China from the 'evil' category though. They have warts and I would suggest that their support of North Korea's regime has resulted in the death of millions. They are also currently supporting Putin's adventure into Ukraine. So while their approach to trade might be effective, as a citizen of the world they are a blight in terms of net impact.

 

[Chagos]

China has been doing this in Africa for decades. Go into a country and build highways, hospitals and schools, then get preferred access to resources. They do it this way because it works.

I don't know if I would excuse China from the 'evil' category though. They have warts and I would suggest that their support of North Korea's regime has resulted in the death of millions. They are also currently supporting Putin's adventure into Ukraine. So while their approach to trade might be effective, as a citizen of the world they are a blight in terms of net impact.

Not to take anything at all from your (bolded by me) assessment, China's support of Putin's war by silence is aimed directly at Russia. NOT in support of the war as such but in the hope of Russia deteriorating to the point of making it a far more pliable future partner, even if that is going to be just a euphemism for "vassal".

 

[Surrealistik]

China has been doing this in Africa for decades. Go into a country and build highways, hospitals and schools, then get preferred access to resources. They do it this way because it works.

I don't know if I would excuse China from the 'evil' category though. They have warts and I would suggest that their support of North Korea's regime has resulted in the death of millions. They are also currently supporting Putin's adventure into Ukraine. So while their approach to trade might be effective, as a citizen of the world they are a blight in terms of net impact.

China is concretely and undeniably evil given it is literally enacting multiple genocides, nevermind its oppressive, totalitarian police state.

Also what you are describing RE: China and Africa is classic exploitative debt trap diplomacy/economic colonization where typically corrupt leaders are given monetary incentives to agree to all kinds of infrastructure projects their country can't afford, which China knows full and well, and when they inevitably can't pay up and service the crushing debt inflicted by those projects (again, as planned), China takes its pound of flesh with regards to basing and resource rights, votes in the UN and other international bodies.

 

[Tigerace117]

On one hand china is conducting a war in the pacifica. But it is not a war of guns and soldiers. it is a war of economics. One where failing any other offers, island nations are accepting trade and china's presence in their countries.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...-nations-on-security-policing-and-data-report


On the other hand we have america who have done nothing to indicate that they understand that this is an economic war and not a military one. Recent talks with new zealand prime minister only emphasises that biden is thinking military aide ,not economic.
https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/poli...nalyst-s-warning-to-tread-very-carefully.html


So which is the lesser evil here? America trying to win heart and mind by sending in the military, or is that even a consideration. Or china's with life long loans that will build infrastructure and improve living conditions and put the counties in china's pocket.

China is a genocidal dictatorship.

The US…..isn’t.

This isn’t even a question to anyone who isn’t already pro CPC.

 

[soylentgreen]

China is a genocidal dictatorship.

The US…..isn’t.

This isn’t even a question to anyone who isn’t already pro CPC.

China also is the one using capitalism to buy other countries. Where as it is america who threatens the pacific with an army.

 

[Tigerace117]

China also is the one using capitalism to buy other countries. Where as it is america who threatens the pacific with an army.

Anyone who thinks China doesn’t rattle its saber hasn’t been paying attention to the South China Sea over the last decade or so.

Not sure why you think “buying a country” is so much better bud. The end result is the same.

 

[soylentgreen]

Anyone who thinks China doesn’t rattle its saber hasn’t been paying attention to the South China Sea over the last decade or so.

Not sure why you think “buying a country” is so much better bud. The end result is the same.

China does rattle its saber. And again what we see is china knows how to play the arrogant white man like a fiddle. Not an american problem this time but the way the idiot ex prime minister of australia tried to handle china with saber rattling of his own.

And no, the end result is not the same. Because if america treats the pacific as a cold war zone then that helps no one. While the chinese offer sustainability and the means to survive the climate change crisis which is seeing those island states disappear under the sea. Albeit that also comes with a cost.

 

[Tigerace117]

China does rattle its saber. And again what we see is china knows how to play the arrogant white man like a fiddle. Not an american problem this time but the way the idiot ex prime minister of australia tried to handle china with saber rattling of his own.

And no, the end result is not the same. Because if america treats the pacific as a cold war zone then that helps no one. While the chinese offer sustainability and the means to survive the climate change crisis which is seeing those island states disappear under the sea. Albeit that also comes with a cost.

Oh really? Is that why they keep alienating potential allies? The “peaceful rise” strategy is effectively dead due to “wolf warrior” blundering.

Except, of course, for the fact that turning a blind eye to a genocidal dictatorship attempting to exploit vulednabel countries REALLY helps no one.

The Chinese offer subservience to Beijing and little else. “Buying” a country, after all, means one then sees it as a tool to do with what one wishes, regardless of what the people there think.

 

[soylentgreen]

Perhaps I need to start another thread to get the point of this one across.

I do not need you lot telling me how evil china is. I already know what I am dealing with there.

What I need to know is what the **** america will do if it decides to finally start paying attention to what is happening beyond its beaches of the west coast.

Our leaders have been discussing a military alliance. So what do you think a military presence in the pacific will achieve. How does that help the island nations?

 

[soylentgreen]

Oh really? Is that why they keep alienating potential allies? The “peaceful rise” strategy is effectively dead due to “wolf warrior” blundering.

Except, of course, for the fact that turning a blind eye to a genocidal dictatorship attempting to exploit vulednabel countries REALLY helps no one.

The Chinese offer subservience to Beijing and little else. “Buying” a country, after all, means one then sees it as a tool to do with what one wishes, regardless of what the people there think.

Bullshit. The evidence works against you. Yours is an american solution to a problem, not the actual facts we see on the ground. Any link to china's presence in africa or the pacific shows that unlike america who insist a country at least try and pretend it is a democracy before giving aide.

China shows little interest in the politics of a country. it will offer the aide to any government no matter its political leaning. China's interest is only in the market of a country. They will defend their interests in that field, not politics. It is amusing that the chinese understand capitalism has better control over a country than politics. Yet here you americans are concerning yourself about the politics and totally oblivious to the economic war that is being waged.

All you are telling me is you really have no clue how china works or thinks. Yours is nothing more than the arrogance of a man sure of his own politics rather than knowing of others.

And again, I do not need to be told the chinese are the bad guys. What I need is for someone to explain why the americans are the good guys. And you can not do that just by telling me how bad the chinese are. That still does not tell me your the good guys.

Our leaders are hinting a military alliance. What the **** does that mean? How does america sending its army into the pacific offer any practical help to the people on an island sinking into the rising sea?

 

[Tigerace117]

Bullshit. The evidence works against you. Yours is an american solution to a problem, not the actual facts we see on the ground. Any link to china's presence in africa or the pacific shows that unlike america who insist a country at least try and pretend it is a democracy before giving aide.

China shows little interest in the politics of a country. it will offer the aide to any government no matter its political leaning. China's interest is only in the market of a country. They will defend their interests in that field, not politics. It is amusing that the chinese understand capitalism has better control over a country than politics. Yet here you americans are concerning yourself about the politics and totally oblivious to the economic war that is being waged.

All you are telling me is you really have no clue how china works or thinks. Yours is nothing more than the arrogance of a man sure of his own politics rather than knowing of others.

And again, I do not need to be told the chinese are the bad guys. What I need is for someone to explain why the americans are the good guys. And you can not do that just by telling me how bad the chinese are. That still does not tell me your the good guys.

Our leaders are hinting a military alliance. What the **** does that mean? How does america sending its army into the pacific offer any practical help to the people on an island sinking into the rising sea?

The “evidence” shows that China is a brutal, genocidal dictatorship. America....is not. The question of the “lesser evil” has been throughly solved.

Yes, as long as a country is subservient to Beijing the CPC doesn’t much care what political party is announcing said subservience. They also don’t care if that political party chooses to murder its own people en masse, as long as resources keep flowing into Beijing’s coffers. No wonder the world’s tinpot despots see them as so appealing

I’m sure Vietnam and the people of Xinjiang andTibet would be greatly amused at your insistence that China only uses “market methods”.

Well gee, it keeps their “sinking island” from being “repossessed” by the Chinese leaders who “bought the country” for starters.

 

[soylentgreen]

The “evidence” shows that China is a brutal, genocidal dictatorship. America....is not. The question of the “lesser evil” has been throughly solved.

Yes, as long as a country is subservient to Beijing the CPC doesn’t much care what political party is announcing said subservience. They also don’t care if that political party chooses to murder its own people en masse, as long as resources keep flowing into Beijing’s coffers. No wonder the world’s tinpot despots see them as so appealing

I’m sure Vietnam and the people of Xinjiang andTibet would be greatly amused at your insistence that China only uses “market methods”.

Well gee, it keeps their “sinking island” from being “repossessed” by the Chinese leaders who “bought the country” for starters.

No one is denying chinas brutality. And no pointing out one is evil does not absolve the other as it does not indicate the other does not have its own evil.

Yet again I point out it appears to be america considering military action while china is actually supplying a much needed life line to the islands.

Seems like all you have is rhetoric. Not even an attempt to describe what america offers that is any better.

 

[Tigerace117]

No one is denying chinas brutality. And no pointing out one is evil does not absolve the other as it does not indicate the other does not have its own evil.

Yet again I point out it appears to be america considering military action while china is actually supplying a much needed life line to the islands.

Seems like all you have is rhetoric. Not even an attempt to describe what america offers that is any better.

Once again, China is a genocidal dictatorship. America....is not. America hasn’t even come close to doing what China is currently doing for decades. There really isn’t any equivalence to be made here.

A “life line” filled with hidden daggers and traps intended to target the people being “rescued” into subservient puppets of China is not much of a “life line”.

Again, when one side is a literal genocidal dictatorship and the other is not, pointing that out is more than sufficient to qualify the non-genocidal side as the “lesser evil” at the very least.

 

[rickc]

China is our most favored trading partner. Our corporations, in their search for greater profits, have exploited China's cheap labor and no regulations. This has made China an economic superpower. Now America is dependent on that manufacturing base built by American corporations. The covid lockdowns in China have shown us what a dangerous position that puts us in.

All for short term corporate profits

 

[Antiwar]

If the US is supposedly concerned about China, then why has China been the US's largest creditor?

 

[soylentgreen]

Once again, China is a genocidal dictatorship. America....is not. America hasn’t even come close to doing what China is currently doing for decades. There really isn’t any equivalence to be made here.

A “life line” filled with hidden daggers and traps intended to target the people being “rescued” into subservient puppets of China is not much of a “life line”.

Again, when one side is a literal genocidal dictatorship and the other is not, pointing that out is more than sufficient to qualify the non-genocidal side as the “lesser evil” at the very least.

Yeah the part in bold is the key to that statement.

A life line that is necessary for those island nations to survive. And please stop with the lame attempts at portraying china as a scarey monster. I am not dumb **** trump supporter to fall for stupid scare tactics. All you are teling me with that is you do not have a clue about china so instead just trot out the usual scarey propaganda.

And again when one side offers what is needed while the other does nothing but parade their military around the pacific. What actual choice do you think the pacific has.

Once again you completely fail to give any evidence that america will support the pacific in any meaningful way. the best you can do is create scary stories because they work on the sheeple of america.

 

[Tigerace117]

Yeah the part in bold is the key to that statement.

A life line that is necessary for those island nations to survive. And please stop with the lame attempts at portraying china as a scarey monster. I am not dumb **** trump supporter to fall for stupid scare tactics. All you are teling me with that is you do not have a clue about china so instead just trot out the usual scarey propaganda.

And again when one side offers what is needed while the other does nothing but parade their military around the pacific. What actual choice do you think the pacific has.

Once again you completely fail to give any evidence that america will support the pacific in any meaningful way. the best you can do is create scary stories because they work on the sheeple of america.

Yeah, considering the only reason New Zealand exists is British imperialism and it happily supported that imperialism for decades, not sure you want to start throwing stones bud

Fact of the matter is, China is committing genocide TODAY.

China is a genocidal dictatorship. That is a fact. You desperately looking for any excuse to downplay their actions does not change that fact. The CPC is DIRECTLY responsible for tens of millions of deaths. That is pretty ****ing monstrous. But I get that to pro CPC fanboys having to face the facts about what they are doing leads to sobs of “propaganda”

Again, subservience to Beijing is not what is “needed”.....and that is what the CPC offers when the smoke clears.

Once again, the oh so enlightened CPC fanboy cries about imaginary “propaganda” because he’s under the delusion cheerleading for China makes him more intelligent than anyone else

 

[soylentgreen]

Yeah, considering the only reason New Zealand exists is British imperialism and it happily supported that imperialism for decades, not sure you want to start throwing stones bud

Fact of the matter is, China is committing genocide TODAY.

China is a genocidal dictatorship. That is a fact. You desperately looking for any excuse to downplay their actions does not change that fact. The CPC is DIRECTLY responsible for tens of millions of deaths. That is pretty ****ing monstrous. But I get that to pro CPC fanboys having to face the facts about what they are doing leads to sobs of “propaganda”

Again, subservience to Beijing is not what is “needed”.....and that is what the CPC offers when the smoke clears.

Once again, the oh so enlightened CPC fanboy cries about imaginary “propaganda” because he’s under the delusion cheerleading for China makes him more intelligent than anyone else

So basically what we can expect then is that china will continue its war of economics while you americans sail around in your war ships doing **** all. Just telling the world your the good guys . Just ignore the fact that china is the one giving the assistance that is needed.

Thank you for expressing just how clueless you are.

 

[Tigerace117]

So basically what we can expect then is that china will continue its war of economics while you americans sail around in your war ships doing **** all. Just telling the world your the good guys . Just ignore the fact that china is the one giving the assistance that is needed.

Thank you for expressing just how clueless you are.

So basically what we can expect is that you’ll continue trying desperately to downplay China “buying” countries and the fact that it’s a genocidal dictatorship.

Gee, compared to, again, the literal GENOCIDAL DICTATORSHIP the US certainly is. One side is committing genocide. One side is not. This is not a hard comparison for anyone who isn’t already pro CPC.

Thank you for exposing yourself.

 

[soylentgreen]

So basically what we can expect is that you’ll continue trying desperately to downplay China “buying” countries and the fact that it’s a genocidal dictatorship.

Gee, compared to, again, the literal GENOCIDAL DICTATORSHIP the US certainly is. One side is committing genocide. One side is not. This is not a hard comparison for anyone who isn’t already pro CPC.

Thank you for exposing yourself.

I have not down played anything about china. I only pointed out that being bleated to as if I were one of your american sheeple is sickening.

Again, not one mention of what america will do in the pacific that will be of any help to the people of the pacific and all I get is someone who cannot even figure out that his silly scarey stories only demonstrate how limited your thinking is.

I know what china is and you are of no use to me if all you can do is state the obvious about it and nothing else.

 

[rickc]

Communist Red China has been an enemy of America my entire life.

American corporations saw an opportunity to increase profits and the communist red Chinese become America's most favored trading partner. American corporations build manufacturing plants in China and make a bundle exploiting cheap labor and no regulations.

Because of corporate greed communist red China has become an economic superpower and begining to challenge us militarily.

Because of corporate greed we are dependent on the communist red Chinese for our manufactured goods. The coronavirus lockdowns have shown us how dangerous that is.

All for short term corporate profits

 

[Tigerace117]

I have not down played anything about china. I only pointed out that being bleated to as if I were one of your american sheeple is sickening.

Again, not one mention of what america will do in the pacific that will be of any help to the people of the pacific and all I get is someone who cannot even figure out that his silly scarey stories only demonstrate how limited your thinking is.

I know what china is and you are of no use to me if all you can do is state the obvious about it and nothing else.

Your mewling about “propaganda” when I pointed out the fact that they are a genocidal dictatorship says otherwise. Hate to break it to you bud, but unironically blathering on about “sheeple” is pathetic.

Again, gee, preventing China from literally buying countries and forcing them into subservience to Beijing— which is, in fact, the goal— is just the most blatantly obvious example.

Weeping about “scary stories” because you can’t bear to face facts about China’s ongoing genocide is likewise pathetic bud.

 

[Bear5131]

On one hand china is conducting a war in the pacifica. But it is not a war of guns and soldiers. it is a war of economics. One where failing any other offers, island nations are accepting trade and china's presence in their countries.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...-nations-on-security-policing-and-data-report


On the other hand we have america who have done nothing to indicate that they understand that this is an economic war and not a military one. Recent talks with new zealand prime minister only emphasises that biden is thinking military aide ,not economic.
https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/poli...nalyst-s-warning-to-tread-very-carefully.html


So which is the lesser evil here? America trying to win heart and mind by sending in the military, or is that even a consideration. Or china's with life long loans that will build infrastructure and improve living conditions and put the counties in china's pocket.

You forget about the other countries in the area, I read China is disrupting commercial fishermen

 

[soylentgreen]

You forget about the other countries in the area, I read China is disrupting commercial fishermen

True. The chinese have a bad habit of sending their fishing fleet into protected territories. The pacifica countries that patrol those area do often stop and arrest chinese fishing boat crew for some illegal activity. And usually document the harsh working conditions on those boats. In return the chinese navy stops and harrasses legal fishing boats in the s china sea. It is a game of tit for tat.

And no, it is not I forget. It is that america has forgotten. I suspect tiger is representative of americans, ie. could not find the pacific on a map let alone have given any thought to what they will do once they get there.