The Left and Feminism

[Cephus]

That's not even what second wave feminism was/is.

Third wave is when it started going completely off the rails though, to the point that you can't even see there from here.

 

[TheGoverness]

Definitions found in a dictionary don't always match real world application. Watch some YouTube videos sometime, go on some feminism sites/forums, and then come back and tell me if you believe that definition is correct.

Well they do deviate from the textbook definition greatly. And they tend to go back to the textbook definition when they are criticised.

 

[_Sal]

Except that is not what modern third and fourth wave feminists think feminism is. They'll say that's what they believe, but what they do and how they act proves otherwise.

God, I should of responded earlier. **** me.

"Third-wave feminism refers to several diverse strains of feminist activity and study, whose exact boundaries in the history of feminism are a subject of debate, but are generally marked as beginning in the early 1990s and continuing to the present."

thanks guys, I will have to read up on it....I literally have never heard of it, have never met anyone professing it, I will do some research.... :thumbs:

 

[Cephus]

thanks guys, I will have to read up on it....I literally have never heard of it, have never met anyone professing it, I will do some research.... :thumbs:

Be careful before you go down that rabbit hole, it's a disaster down there. If you don't like the hyper-regressive left/ultra-politically correct/give us free stuff because we're entitled garbage, you won't like where you end up.

 

[_Sal]

Except that is not what modern third and fourth wave feminists think feminism is. They'll say that's what they believe, but what they do and how they act proves otherwise.

noun
1.
the doctrine advocating social, political, and all other rights of women equal to those of men.
2.
(sometimes initial capital letter) an organized movement for the attainment of such rights for women.


Three seconds.

that's what I thought feminism was, I don't know a single person in my circle who isn't...never thought of it as a negative only thought those who weren't were on a different level mentally, intellectually and emotionally

 

[TheGoverness]

thanks guys, I will have to read up on it....I literally have never heard of it, have never met anyone professing it, I will do some research.... :thumbs:

Well it's more along the lines of defining the certain periods where the direction of the feminism movement shifted.

 

[_Sal]

Except that is not what modern third and fourth wave feminists think feminism is. They'll say that's what they believe, but what they do and how they act proves otherwise.

Be careful before you go down that rabbit hole, it's a disaster down there. If you don't like the hyper-regressive left/ultra-politically correct/give us free stuff because we're entitled garbage, you won't like where you end up.

well regardless it will be an interesting ride

I would like some examples of what they believe...to make it real

 

[Fearandloathing]

that's what I thought feminism was, I don't know a single person in my circle who isn't...never thought of it as a negative only thought those who weren't were on a different level mentally, intellectually and emotionally

By definition I am not a feminist: "the doctrine advocating social, political and all other rights of all to be equal throughout. This is the argument I have had with black activists and feminists since mid sixties. You cannot isolate one group and then call for 'equality' with another. Rights either are, or they not, there can be no ambiguity.

By isolating women, or gays, or anyone, you immediately exclude everyone else. As I would say, "I will certainly march with you, but be prepared for the day I ask for you to also march with me." And it came, and more than a few gays disappointed me as they were too busy to protest marijuana laws.

And it is in our own selfishness of our own causes that we have made it all that much harder. There is still a 20% discrepancy between the earnings of a woman and a man despite 50 years [of my life] of demanding equality. Why is that?

I believe it simply became another "file" for politicians to weigh in on, hold some hearings, make some speeches...

 

[TheGoverness]

By definition I am not a feminist: "the doctrine advocating social, political and all other rights of all to be equal throughout. This is the argument I have had with black activists and feminists since mid sixties. You cannot isolate one group and then call for 'equality' with another. Rights either are, or they not, there can be no ambiguity.

By isolating women, or gays, or anyone, you immediately exclude everyone else. As I would say, "I will certainly march with you, but be prepared for the day I ask for you to also march with me." And it came, and more than a few gays disappointed me as they were too busy to protest marijuana laws.

And it is in our own selfishness of our own causes that we have made it all that much harder. There is still a 20% discrepancy between the earnings of a woman and a man despite 50 years [of my life] of demanding equality. Why is that?

I believe it simply became another "file" for politicians to weigh in on, hold some hearings, make some speeches...

I personally identify as a Egalitarian.

 

[Cephus]

By definition I am not a feminist: "the doctrine advocating social, political and all other rights of all to be equal throughout. This is the argument I have had with black activists and feminists since mid sixties. You cannot isolate one group and then call for 'equality' with another. Rights either are, or they not, there can be no ambiguity.

By isolating women, or gays, or anyone, you immediately exclude everyone else. As I would say, "I will certainly march with you, but be prepared for the day I ask for you to also march with me." And it came, and more than a few gays disappointed me as they were too busy to protest marijuana laws.

And it is in our own selfishness of our own causes that we have made it all that much harder. There is still a 20% discrepancy between the earnings of a woman and a man despite 50 years [of my life] of demanding equality. Why is that?

I believe it simply became another "file" for politicians to weigh in on, hold some hearings, make some speeches...

By definition, I am an egalitarian. I am for equality for all. Not for men, not for women, not for blacks, not for whites, not for straights or gays, for all. Full stop. Feminism isn't about equality for all, even though they pretend to be, because they only pay attention to their particular pet causes and ignore everything else.

 

[_Sal]

By definition I am not a feminist: "the doctrine advocating social, political and all other rights of all to be equal throughout. This is the argument I have had with black activists and feminists since mid sixties. You cannot isolate one group and then call for 'equality' with another. Rights either are, or they not, there can be no ambiguity.

By isolating women, or gays, or anyone, you immediately exclude everyone else. As I would say, "I will certainly march with you, but be prepared for the day I ask for you to also march with me." And it came, and more than a few gays disappointed me as they were too busy to protest marijuana laws.

And it is in our own selfishness of our own causes that we have made it all that much harder. There is still a 20% discrepancy between the earnings of a woman and a man despite 50 years [of my life] of demanding equality. Why is that?

I believe it simply became another "file" for politicians to weigh in on, hold some hearings, make some speeches...

lots think that is the way it should be...males and females...many men, and women even on this forum would like to return to a world where men were above well, white men at least

while I believe all are equal, all justified in their fight I do not believe it is necessary to walk for every cause

I believe we are all called to heal the earth in various ways according to our gifts...I do however believe that if one does not support the rights of all in a daily basis by behaviour one is truly lacking as a human being

many are lacking

 

[JumpinJack]

One of the most interesting political divisions within the Democratic party is feminism. I am interested to hear left leaning people's opinion on feminism. It seems like about 40% of democrats identify as feminists.

My problem is, although feminism seems to have little basis in reality, most of the other 60% seem somewhat indifferent towards it. If you fall into either category, why so?

Also, for anyone who isn't a feminist, why do you think feminists can get away with promoting myths such as the gender pay gap and campus rape culture? A bit of me dies inside when any otherwise intelligent person tells me they believe these as fact.

Finally, I have never heard an intelligent argument for why feminism is a legitimate cause. Although doubtful, maybe someone will surprise me.

Why is there even a post about this? Of course feminism is a just cause, just like all forms of civil rights. No reasonable person in the U.S.A. is against civil rights.

Everyone who is reasonable and in favor of civil rights supports feminism, but many dislike the word, or misunderstand what it means. But make no mistake: the U.S. supports full and complete civil rights for men and women alike. There are some areas where it's in dispute as to what IS a civil right (like reverse discrimination for white men), but that doesn't mean the country doesn't support full civil rights for men, just as it does for women.

It makes no sense to do a post on this subject. It's like asking, "Who is supportive of anti-child abuse? And why?"

 

[Cephus]

There is still a 20% discrepancy between the earnings of a woman and a man despite 50 years [of my life] of demanding equality. Why is that?

There isn't. This is not an apples-to-apples comparison, it compares all jobs held by men and all jobs held by women, ignoring the fact that women tend to *CHOOSE* lower paying fields, they *CHOOSE* to spend less time at work, they *CHOOSE* to take more time off and they *CHOOSE* not to negotiate for higher salaries. They are able to go into higher paying fields, they *CHOOSE* not to. In fact, if you look at the college degrees that women *CHOOSE* to get, they tend to be on the list of fields with the worst return on investment. This is CHOICE, not discrimination. Yet no matter how often this is pointed out to idiot feminists, they keep playing the same old broken and entirely discredited record over again and again.

 

[Mithrae]

Well there's is in fact a argument for it to exist in other places for it around the world, but not in the West, at least not the recent incarnation of feminism.

Why is that? It seems an entirely natural progression to move from opposing rigid gender roles and discrimination in 'second wave' feminism, to questioning rigid gender boundaries entirely in the 'third wave.' Even between the 60s and 90s, developments such as ongoing population growth, advances in technology in automation and lessened chances of global warfare
a) dramatically reduced any perceived need for women to be child-bearers primarily and
b) dramatically reduced the number and need for physically demanding or dangerous work traditionally undertaken by men.

With the disappearance of any need for a binary conception of gender and sexuality, the third wave's perspective of gender fluidity and individuality looks like a natural progression not only for feminism, but for society generally; hence the inclusiveness of LGBT issues on the one hand, and the frequent reluctance to explicitly identify as feminists at all on the other.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third-wave_feminism
Four Waves of Feminism | Pacific University

I'm really not seeing what is so objectionable about all of this. The examples in this thread which have raised the most petulance - the wage gap, 'rape culture,' dismissing or denying men's issues, and attributing dislike of particular media to misogyny - have no clear connection to third wave feminism at all. As I initially questioned, they seem to be fringe minority examples, perhaps a reactionary pushback against the perceived diminishing need for traditional (ie, second wave) feminism in societies which are now largely egalitarian.

Falsely equivocating a small reactionary element with 'third wave' feminism - and, in the OP and in numerous posts throughout, with nonspecific feminism in general - even though the latter's flow is pretty much entirely antithetical to those objectionable examples does not make a very compelling case, to my mind.

 

[Mithrae]

There is still a 20% discrepancy between the earnings of a woman and a man despite 50 years [of my life] of demanding equality. Why is that?

As Cephus has noted, a great deal of that discrepancy disappears when factors like career choice and time in the workforce are taken into account. There's still some 3-6% of a pay gap which is not easily accounted for.

Claiming (as a number of people in this thread have) that the pay gap is a myth and this remainder is due entirely to presumed inferior negotiating skills of women would be fallacious, just as much as claiming that it is due entirely to discrimination would be. If that percentage of the pay gap is unaccounted for, then it's unaccounted for, and while there may be some evidence that women are more often reluctant to push hard for promotion or a raise, there's also plenty of evidence for unconscious biases in hiring and promotion which tend to disfavour women for higher-paid positions.

In keeping with the OPs contention that this is an issue of 'the left,' we can turn to the ultra-right wing Huffington Post for one perspective on the topic:
Wage Gap Myth Exposed -- By Feminists | Huffington Post

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_pay_gap
Study finds hiring manager bias | Australian Institute of Company Directors

The long and short of it, as I see it, is that since there's a small pay gap which isn't yet conclusively accounted for one way or the other, it's an issue to be aware of but obviously not a political/governmental one.

 

[Fearandloathing]

As Cephus has noted, a great deal of that discrepancy disappears when factors like career choice and time in the workforce are taken into account. There's still some 3-6% of a pay gap which is not easily accounted for.

Claiming (as a number of people in this thread have) that the pay gap is a myth and this remainder is due entirely to presumed inferior negotiating skills of women would be fallacious, just as much as claiming that it is due entirely to discrimination would be. If that percentage of the pay gap is unaccounted for, then it's unaccounted for, and while there may be some evidence that women are more often reluctant to push hard for promotion or a raise, there's also plenty of evidence for unconscious biases in hiring and promotion which tend to disfavour women for higher-paid positions.

In keeping with the OPs contention that this is an issue of 'the left,' we can turn to the ultra-right wing Huffington Post for one perspective on the topic:
Wage Gap Myth Exposed -- By Feminists | Huffington Post

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_pay_gap
Study finds hiring manager bias | Australian Institute of Company Directors

The long and short of it, as I see it, is that since there's a small pay gap which isn't yet conclusively accounted for one way or the other, it's an issue to be aware of but obviously not a political/governmental one.

Cop out!

 

[Mithrae]

Cop out!

What do you mean?

 

[TheGoverness]

Why is that? It seems an entirely natural progression to move from opposing rigid gender roles and discrimination in 'second wave' feminism, to questioning rigid gender boundaries entirely in the 'third wave.' Even between the 60s and 90s, developments such as ongoing population growth, advances in technology in automation and lessened chances of global warfare
a) dramatically reduced any perceived need for women to be child-bearers primarily and
b) dramatically reduced the number and need for physically demanding or dangerous work traditionally undertaken by men.

With the disappearance of any need for a binary conception of gender and sexuality, the third wave's perspective of gender fluidity and individuality looks like a natural progression not only for feminism, but for society generally; hence the inclusiveness of LGBT issues on the one hand, and the frequent reluctance to explicitly identify as feminists at all on the other.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third-wave_feminism
Four Waves of Feminism | Pacific University

I'm really not seeing what is so objectionable about all of this. The examples in this thread which have raised the most petulance - the wage gap, 'rape culture,' dismissing or denying men's issues, and attributing dislike of particular media to misogyny - have no clear connection to third wave feminism at all. As I initially questioned, they seem to be fringe minority examples, perhaps a reactionary pushback against the perceived diminishing need for traditional (ie, second wave) feminism in societies which are now largely egalitarian.

Falsely equivocating a small reactionary element with 'third wave' feminism - and, in the OP and in numerous posts throughout, with nonspecific feminism in general - even though the latter's flow is pretty much entirely antithetical to those objectionable examples does not make a very compelling case, to my mind.

I'd respond with a in-depth response, but I'm sort of drunk right now. Lolz!!

 

[Fiddytree]

I'd respond with a in-depth response, but I'm sort of drunk right now. Lolz!!

Liquor and feminism. Sounds like a graduate school seminar. Best done with voices rather than text!

 

[X Factor]

I'd respond with a in-depth response, but I'm sort of drunk right now. Lolz!!

That actually might help you in this thread.

 

[TheGoverness]

Liquor and feminism. Sounds like a graduate school seminar. Best done with voices rather than text!

**** it, it's the end of the week!!!

 

[TheGoverness]

That actually might help you in this thread.

Cheers to that. Ya'll have a good night!!!

 

[Mithrae]

Liquor and feminism. Sounds like a graduate school seminar. Best done with voices rather than text!

You know what they say. Liquor - she'll love it!