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The Left and Feminism

justlogic

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One of the most interesting political divisions within the Democratic party is feminism. I am interested to hear left leaning people's opinion on feminism. It seems like about 40% of democrats identify as feminists.

My problem is, although feminism seems to have little basis in reality, most of the other 60% seem somewhat indifferent towards it. If you fall into either category, why so?

Also, for anyone who isn't a feminist, why do you think feminists can get away with promoting myths such as the gender pay gap and campus rape culture? A bit of me dies inside when any otherwise intelligent person tells me they believe these as fact.

Finally, I have never heard an intelligent argument for why feminism is a legitimate cause. Although doubtful, maybe someone will surprise me.
 

D_NATURED

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Feminism, in my opinion, is a subset of humanism. And, where it crosses the line into a case for unique rights for women, I sometimes fall out of favor. However, a hell of a lot can be done to ensure that women, worldwide, are not treated like property and get an equal political voice. If that very female-centric fact of their oppression does not stir HUMAN empathy in men, then we are allowing a difference of opinion over pay statistics, for instance, to justify our apathy toward an obvious female problem. Furthermore, if men are not able to objectively see the misogyny that existed and exists within even our own traditions, we are again choosing willful blindness.

I'm not a woman but if I had to guess what pisses them off the most, it's the big dumb look on male faces as we try to convince them that we don't understand any part of their pain.
 

Henrin

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The gender pay gap is crap. For one thing, it only exists when you ignore what jobs people take, and for another, women in their early twenties actually make more than men of the same age.
 

justlogic

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Feminism, in my opinion, is a subset of humanism. And, where it crosses the line into a case for unique rights for women, I sometimes fall out of favor. However, a hell of a lot can be done to ensure that women, worldwide, are not treated like property and get an equal political voice. If that very female-centric fact of their oppression does not stir HUMAN empathy in men, then we are allowing a difference of opinion over pay statistics, for instance, to justify our apathy toward an obvious female problem. Furthermore, if men are not able to objectively see the misogyny that existed and exists within even our own traditions, we are again choosing willful blindness.

I'm not a woman but if I had to guess what pisses them off the most, it's the big dumb look on male faces as we try to convince them that we don't understand any part of their pain.
Just to be clear, I am talking about third wave feminism in the US, Australia, and Europe. Third wave feminism does not fight for woman's rights outside of the first world. I do believe most people think the treatment of women in the Middle East and elsewhere is at least unjust.
 

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One of the most interesting political divisions within the Democratic party is feminism. I am interested to hear left leaning people's opinion on feminism. It seems like about 40% of democrats identify as feminists.

My problem is, although feminism seems to have little basis in reality, most of the other 60% seem somewhat indifferent towards it. If you fall into either category, why so?

Also, for anyone who isn't a feminist, why do you think feminists can get away with promoting myths such as the gender pay gap and campus rape culture? A bit of me dies inside when any otherwise intelligent person tells me they believe these as fact.

Finally, I have never heard an intelligent argument for why feminism is a legitimate cause. Although doubtful, maybe someone will surprise me.
Good Luck, You're Going to need it.
 

TheGoverness

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Well I think they make these false assertions (the gender wave gap and rape culture) because their entire goal is to be professional victims. They act like they are the poor oppressed victims marginalized in society, yet they get everything they want handed to them on a shiny gold platter. I mean these feminists are bitching about Halloween costumes for Christ's sake! And they act like they aren't privileged. Give me a ****ing break.

And 3rd-Wave Feminism is just a complete failure, IMO. I mean feminists back in the day used to fight for actual goals like the right to vote, but now today's feminists just constantly bitch and moan about how big Lara Croft's tits are, or how misogyny is all throughout our TV programs. Yet as I speak there's women in third world countries that have little to no rights at all, and these 3rd-Wave feminists still complain about their stupid first world problems. And that's why I identify as a Gender Egalitarian, as I want absolutely nothing to do with today's feminist movement.

But what makes my blood boil even more is the fact that today's feminists have completely dismissed or outright denied any of the issues that men face in society, continuing the narrative that all men have it good and women are the ones that are the victims. I personally believe that if we are ever going to get past any of this bull****, we have to sit down and address both men and women's instead of turning a blind eye to one side.

And I also think today's feminists want to create a environment for themselves where only their sensibilities and feelings are catered to, so they can have their own little safe space where they don't have to listen to criticism. But everyone else who disagrees with them should be silenced because their opponent's speech and ideas may be "harmful" or "oppressing" them. That's why I am vehement against PC culture, because all it is is just language control. It's basically telling society that they have to cater to their sensibilities and their sensibilities alone; basically stating that their sensibilities are the only real sensibilities. And that everyone should have to fall in line behind their sensibilities in order not to offend the "oppressed victims of society".
 
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TurtleDude

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The gender pay gap is crap. For one thing, it only exists when you ignore what jobs people take, and for another, women in their early twenties actually make more than men of the same age.

ever heard of the idiotic theory called "comparable worth"
 

coldjoint

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Well I think they make these false assertions (the gender wave gap and rape culture) because their entire goal is to be professional victims. They act like they are the poor oppressed victims marginalized in society, yet they get everything they want handed to them on a shiny gold platter.

And 3rd-Wave Feminism is just a complete failure, IMO. I mean feminists back in the day used to fight for actual goals like the right to vote, but now today's feminists just constantly bitch and moan about how big Lara Croft's tits are, or how misogyny is all throughout our TV programs. Yet as I speak there's women in third world countries that have little to no rights at all, and these 3rd-Wave feminists still complain about their stupid first world problems. And that's why I identify as a Gender Egalitarian, as I want absolutely nothing to do with today's feminist movement.

But what makes my blood boil even more is the fact that today's feminists have completely dismissed or outright denied any of the issues that men face in society, continuing the narrative that all men have it good and women are the ones that are the victims. I personally believe that if we are ever going to get past any of this bull****, we have to sit down and address both men and women's instead of turning a blind eye to one side.

You are disputing a narrative. Narratives are not based on facts. Remember anything that causes a society to lash out at themselves for being such pieces of **** is in the progressives playbook.

It is like a giant jenga game where they(progressives) pull out the pieces that hold us together. The things that can hold us together are still there you just don't hear much about them. Elaborating on real truth gets you shouted down or ridiculed. Who did we learn that from?
 

TheGoverness

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You are disputing a narrative. Narratives are not based on facts. Remember anything that causes a society to lash out at themselves for being such pieces of **** is in the progressives playbook.

But I think the problem is that these feminists/regressives don't refer to their claims as part of a narrative.

They believe that their claims are facts, and are completely true despite not having as shred of evidence for any of it.
 

justlogic

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It's interesting that no feminist has replied yet. Normally one of the most outspoken groups seems surprisingly silent. I guess there really is no logical argument for feminism. This is definitely what I believed when I started this thread, but also found it hard to believe there could be absolutely no argument for a movement so large.
 

TheGoverness

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It's interesting that no feminist has replied yet. Normally one of the most outspoken groups seems surprisingly silent. I guess there really is no logical argument for feminism. This is definitely what I believed when I started this thread, but also found it hard to believe there could be absolutely no argument for a movement so large.
Of course. Why do you think they want to shut down debate constantly? Because they don't want any criticism.
 

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Just to be clear, I am talking about third wave feminism in the US, Australia, and Europe. Third wave feminism does not fight for woman's rights outside of the first world. I do believe most people think the treatment of women in the Middle East and elsewhere is at least unjust.

You didn't say "third wave", you just said "feminism". My sense of third wave feminism is that it is focused upon the interests of a minority of women, a sort of splinter cell of traditional feminism that was interested in achieving basic human rights for women.

Whatever you or I think of it, based upon our own subjective opinion of their agenda, they DO serve a portion of the population who have been traditionally forgotten. I don't think they're any different than some particular sect of christianity that lobbies for a specific set of laws that serve them specifically.

I don't feel at all threatened by them because they represent such a small group of women who, as they see their own social standing improve, will find less use for activism around their gender. Society is changing and will continue to do so. They represent the growing pains of a culture that likes using traditionalist dogma to justify ignoring not just the needs of actual people but to deny that they even deserve to exist as a demographic.
 

Bucky

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Interesting example of the sexism card being played in Seattle:

The proposal for a $550-million arena — with $200 million coming from taxpayers — was San Francisco developer Chris Hansen's attempt to bring a National Basketball Assn. franchise back to Seattle and attract a National Hockey League team.

Disappointed fans couldn't fathom the council's refusal to accept a $20-million offer from Hansen to vacate part of a street needed for his arena site near the Seahawks' and Mariners' stadiums downtown.

"I think someone should smash Kshama Sawant's head into a brick wall," one Twitter user wrote, referring to one of the women who voted no.

"So this is why Ann Coulter has said that women shouldn't be allowed to vote," said another online commentor.

Seattle councilwomen's vote against NBA plan inspires sexist rage - LA Times

So these 5 misguided women make a very unpopular decision and they receive a ton of blacklash. The majority of the criticism is substantive yet they cry sexism over some extreme vulgar comments made by a fringe minority. I'm not surprised.

Instead of arguing over the merits of their decision they make this into a social issue regarding women's rights:

To belittle our votes and policy considerations as “emotional and naive” is not only an insult to women, it impacts our community. The misogynistic backlash to our vote is an attempt to communicate a dangerous message: Elected women in Seattle do not deserve the respect necessary to make tough decisions without the fear of violence and racially and sexually charged retaliation.

To this we say: Women of Seattle, you are valued. Women from around the country, joined by men, have led the call for solidarity. The messages of solidarity and support we have received in the days since the vote have proved that the negative voices truly are on the losing side of history. Don’t allow the hateful voices of a few intimidate you into silence or inaction.

As for the five of us, we may not always agree on policy issues in the future, but on this we agree: We must and will take a stand against misogyny and other hateful rhetoric. We invite you to stand with us.

Seattle women: Don’t let hateful voices intimidate you into silence or inaction | The Seattle Times

The irony is that these 5 liberal female city council members (1 of which is an actual Socialist) want to silence those that disagree with them.
 

justlogic

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Interesting example of the sexism card being played in Seattle:



Seattle councilwomen's vote against NBA plan inspires sexist rage - LA Times

So these 5 misguided women make a very unpopular decision and they receive a ton of blacklash. The majority of the criticism is substantive yet they cry sexism over some extreme vulgar comments made by a fringe minority. I'm not surprised.

Instead of arguing over the merits of their decision they make this into a social issue regarding women's rights:



Seattle women: Don’t let hateful voices intimidate you into silence or inaction | The Seattle Times

The irony is that these 5 liberal female city council members (1 of which is an actual Socialist) want to silence those that disagree with them.
I barley even see it as ironic anyone when stuff like this happens. It is just pathetic. I don't get how intelligent people can't see through this

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TheGoverness

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I barley even see it as ironic anyone when stuff like this happens. It is just pathetic. I don't get how intelligent people can't see through this

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It's kind of like how most people hate that godawful new Ghostbusters trailer (500,000+ dislikes on YouTube). And now a bunch of feminists are trying to claim that we all hate it because we're being sexist against women, but actually we hate it because it is a uninspired, terrible, and plain unfunny trailer. Seriously, I can't watch it without cringing terribly, it's just so ****ing bad.

But no, according to feminists I must hate the trailer because I hate women.
 

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It's interesting that no feminist has replied yet. Normally one of the most outspoken groups seems surprisingly silent. I guess there really is no logical argument for feminism. This is definitely what I believed when I started this thread, but also found it hard to believe there could be absolutely no argument for a movement so large.

Exactly how large is this movement? You claimed in the OP that 40% of Democrats are feminists, which seems plausible, but then in post #4 - after D_Natured pointed out the very real and serious issues of oppression against females which still exist in the world - you said that you're really only talking about 'third wave' feminism in a few countries. Are you raging against anything more than a fringe minority here? Are there even enough of those people on the forum that you can safely presume that they must have read the thread and shied away from your awesome logic?

Arguments from silence are tricky at the best of times.
 

TheGoverness

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Exactly how large is this movement? You claimed in the OP that 40% of Democrats are feminists, which seems plausible, but then in post #4 - after D_Natured pointed out the very real and serious issues of oppression against females which still exist in the world - you said that you're really only talking about 'third wave' feminism in a few countries. Are you raging against anything more than a fringe minority here? Are there even enough of those people on the forum that you can safely presume that they must have read the thread and shied away from your awesome logic?

Arguments from silence are tricky at the best of times.

It's not a fringe minority at all. And we're talking specifically about the 3rd-wave Feminists that are in Western Society.
 

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But I think the problem is that these feminists/regressives don't refer to their claims as part of a narrative.

They believe that their claims are facts, and are completely true despite not having as shred of evidence for any of it.

But that's just how fanatics work. They believe that their claims are facts and no matter what you say, no matter how much evidence that you have that they are wrong, their blind fanatical faith will never let them admit that they're wrong. Feminism is just more quasi-religious faith on the far left.
 

Cephus

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It's kind of like how most people hate that godawful new Ghostbusters trailer (500,000+ dislikes on YouTube). And now a bunch of feminists are trying to claim that we all hate it because we're being sexist against women, but actually we hate it because it is a uninspired, terrible, and plain unfunny trailer. Seriously, I can't watch it without cringing terribly, it's just so ****ing bad.

But no, according to feminists I must hate the trailer because I hate women.

That's because they can only see things in terms of gender. The fact that the trailer sucked, the actors were not funny, and the movie looks horrible is irrelevant. There are women in it so it has to be good. These people are sexist idiots.
 

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It's not a fringe minority at all. And we're talking specifically about the 3rd-wave Feminists that are in Western Society.

I'm not entirely sure you are. Granted my prior knowledge on the subject could be engraved on the head of the pin, but I don't see anything about gender pay gaps, rape culture or dismissing/denying men's issues in either of the top two Google results for 'third wave feminism.' Quite the contrary, the gist of the descriptions seem to portray a shift which both broadens discussion beyond a narrow focus on women's issues, and further deconstructs a binary conception of gender itself into more ambiguous and subjective realms. The descriptions would encompass LGB and especially T movements for example (which is not the same thing as saying that those movements are products of it), as well as the average "girls just wanna have fun" girl who might not even identify specifically as a feminist. In short and in part, if I understand it right, it looks as though 'second wave' feminism's focus was opposition to the social and political inequalities based on gender, while 'third wave' feminism questions rigid conceptions and categories of gender entirely, leaving folks' roles, behaviour and identity in more subjective, individualist realms:

Four Waves of Feminism | Pacific University

The third wave of feminism began in the mid-90's and was informed by post-colonial and post-modern thinking. In this phase many constructs were destabilized, including the notions of "universal womanhood," body, gender, sexuality and heteronormativity. An aspect of third wave feminism that mystified the mothers of the earlier feminist movement was the readoption by young feminists of the very lip-stick, high-heels, and cleavage proudly exposed by low cut necklines that the first two phases of the movement identified with male oppression. Pinkfloor expressed this new position when she said that it's possible to have a push-up bra and a brain at the same time.

The "grrls" of the third wave stepped onto the stage as strong and empowered, eschewing victimization and defining feminine beauty for themselves as subjects, not as objects of a sexist patriarchy. They developed a rhetoric of mimicry, which appropriated derogatory terms like "slut" and "bitch" in order to subvert sexist culture and deprive it of verbal weapons. The web is an important tool of "girlie feminism." E-zines have provided "cybergrrls" and "netgrrls" another kind of women-only space. At the same time — rife with the irony of third-wave feminism because cyberspace is disembodied — it permits all users the opportunity to cross gender boundaries, and so the very notion of gender has been unbalanced in a way that encourages experimentation and creative thought.

This is in keeping with the third wave's celebration of ambiguity and refusal to think in terms of "us-them." Most third-wavers refuse to identify as "feminists" and reject the word that they find limiting and exclusionary. Grrl-feminism tends to be global, multi-cultural, and it shuns simple answers or artificial categories of identity, gender, and sexuality. Its transversal politics means that differences such as those of ethnicity, class, sexual orientation, etc. are celebrated and recognized as dynamic, situational, and provisional. Reality is conceived not so much in terms of fixed structures and power relations, but in terms of performance within contingencies. Third wave feminism breaks boundaries.​
 
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TheGoverness

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That's because they can only see things in terms of gender. The fact that the trailer sucked, the actors were not funny, and the movie looks horrible is irrelevant. There are women in it so it has to be good. These people are sexist idiots.

And the argument that "we all hate the Ghostbusters trailer because we hate women", can be refuted very easily.

All you have to do is just have to look at the Rogue One trailer. The main character is female, but that trailer did not receive a overwhelming amount of dislikes. Because it was not a terrible trailer. The Ghostbusters trailer however, was undeniably terrible.

And yeah, the "comedy" elements (If you can even call them that), were just so unfunny I was actually questioning whether they were actually trying to get people to laugh.
 

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I have never heard an intelligent argument for why feminism is a legitimate cause. Although doubtful, maybe someone will surprise me.

Equality feminism is a most legitimate cause, going back to J.S.Mill and beyond. There are no moral or practical justifications for women being treated differently than men by laws and institutions.

Of course, there are "feminists" who are driven by the old good leftist hatred of what they perceive as "capitalist patriarchal order", or whatever - or simply by psychotic hatred of men. And there are also some plain idiots. But they do not have monopoly on feminism, do they?
 

Henrin

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It's interesting that no feminist has replied yet. Normally one of the most outspoken groups seems surprisingly silent. I guess there really is no logical argument for feminism. This is definitely what I believed when I started this thread, but also found it hard to believe there could be absolutely no argument for a movement so large.

At this point the argument for feminism existing is no longer valid. They're effectively at the point where they making up stuff they want instead of dealing with equal rights issues.
 

TheGoverness

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At this point the argument for feminism existing is no longer valid. They're effectively at the point where they making up stuff they want instead of dealing with equal rights issues.
Well there's is in fact a argument for it to exist in other places for it around the world, but not in the West, at least not the recent incarnation of feminism.
 

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And the argument that "we all hate the Ghostbusters trailer because we hate women", can be refuted very easily.

All you have to do is just have to look at the Rogue One trailer. The main character is female, but that trailer did not receive a overwhelming amount of dislikes. Because it was not a terrible trailer. The Ghostbusters trailer however, was undeniably terrible.

And yeah, the "comedy" elements (If you can even call them that), were just so unfunny I was actually questioning whether they were actually trying to get people to laugh.

No, but a lot of people didn't like it because the main character seems to be a retread of Rey from the last one. But you're right, the outright waves of hatred were entirely different for Ghostbusters. Some of it is nostalgia, granted, people don't want their cherished childhood memories raped, but honestly, that trailer was just awful, I even did a YouTube review on it and I never do that, but I had to talk about how mind-blowing horrible the whole thing was and it had nothing to do with women, it had nothing to do with nostalgia, it was entirely quality and that trailer had none.

And the international trailer that came out afterwards was arguably worse, if you can believe it.
 
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