The Law (by Frederic Bastiat)

Canell · Nov 21, 2011

Howdy!

It seems to me that everyone doing and studying some politics should read this remarkable work - The Law (by Frederic Bastiat).

Unfortunately, the world has gone deeply in the "wrong" direction, the one that Bastiat would call "socialism" (what is socialism is another topic but he obviously means some state socialism like the one in the USSR. Just for your reference, I happen to believe in another definition of socialism, for example). Anyway, let me quote some of his thoughts for you and see how they fit in today's world, USA included.

It is impossible to introduce into society a greater change and a greater evil than this: the conversion of the law into an instrument of plunder...

When law and morality contradict each other, the citizen has the cruel alternative of either losing his moral sense or losing his respect for the law. These two evils are of equal consequence, and it would be difficult for a person to choose between them. The nature of law is to maintain justice. This is so much the case that, in the minds of the people, law and justice are one and the same thing. There is in all of us a strong disposition to believe that anything lawful is also legitimate. This belief is so widespread that many persons have erroneously held that things are "just" because law makes them so. Thus, in order to make plunder appear just and sacred to many consciences, it is only necessary for the law to decree and sanction it. Slavery, restrictions, and monopoly find defenders not only among those who profit from them but also among those who suffer from them...

Another effect of this tragic perversion of the law is that it gives an exaggerated importance to political passions and conflicts, and to politics in general...

For there are two kinds of plunder: legal and illegal...
Sometimes the law defends plunder and participates in it. Thus the beneficiaries are spared the shame, danger, and scruple which their acts would otherwise involve. Sometimes the law places the whole apparatus of judges, police, prisons, and gendarmes at the service of the plunderers, and treats the victim — when he defends himself — as a criminal. In short, there is a legal plunder, and it is of this, no doubt, that Mr. de Montalembert speaks...

Now, legal plunder can be committed in an infinite number of ways. Thus we have an infinite number of plans for organizing it: tariffs, protection, benefits, subsidies, encouragements, progressive taxation, public schools, guaranteed jobs, guaranteed profits, minimum wages, a right to relief, a right to the tools of labor, free credit, and so on, and so on. All these plans as a whole — with their common aim of legal plunder — constitute socialism...

Sounds familiar?

Keridan · Nov 21, 2011

I like Bastiat and find that many things he said rind a little too true for my comfort.

I am wondering; are you applying this to current politics in general or a specific current event?

Canell · Nov 21, 2011

Keridan said:
I like Bastiat and find that many things he said rind a little too true for my comfort.

I am wondering; are you applying this to current politics in general or a specific current event?

In general. Holly cow, look at the EU and the US - they become more and more "socialist" every day! Bastiat must be watching with sadness from his grave ( I hope he's not though).

Keridan · Nov 21, 2011

He and a few other greats, as well. Adam Smith, for instance.

I agree that we are headed down a very dangerous path in both the US and EU. I still hold out some hope, but it will take time. We certainly won't gain much ground in the US right now. People are hating the extreme right and left and those are what's being offered, so we just keep swinging back and forth trying to get away from each one.

Canell · Nov 21, 2011

Keridan said:
People are hating the extreme right and left and those are what's being offered, so we just keep swinging back and forth trying to get away from each one.

Yeah. I refer back to Bastiat (see OP):

Another effect of this tragic perversion of the law is that it gives an exaggerated importance to political passions and conflicts, and to politics in general...

:elephantf :donkeyfla

Grim17 · Nov 21, 2011

I must admit that prior to this thread, I never heard of the man. I like his take on law and morality, so I think I'll spend some time and see what he is all about.

Keridan · Nov 21, 2011

Grim17 said:
I must admit that prior to this thread, I never heard of the man. I like his take on law and morality, so I think I'll spend some time and see what he is all about.

Check out Adam Smith while you're at it.

Xerographica · Nov 21, 2011

Canell...glad to see another fan of Bastiat on this forum. Personally, in my opinion Bastiat's greatest contribution to society was his development of the concept of opportunity cost. It's a real shame he didn't live longer.

If you get a chance you should check out my post...The Blind Men and the Scope of Government...and share your feedback on the value of allowing taxpayers to consider the opportunity costs of their tax allocation decisions.

1Perry · Nov 21, 2011

I'm not sure how that applies specifically to socialism?

Slartibartfast · Nov 21, 2011

Canell said:
Howdy!

It seems to me that everyone doing and studying some politics should read this remarkable work - The Law (by Frederic Bastiat).

Unfortunately, the world has gone deeply in the "wrong" direction, the one that Bastiat would call "socialism" (what is socialism is another topic but he obviously means some state socialism like the one in the USSR. Just for your reference, I happen to believe in another definition of socialism, for example). Anyway, let me quote some of his thoughts for you and see how they fit in today's world, USA included.

Sounds familiar?

Like any black and white principal put to paper, in some cases Bastiet is correct and in some cases not. Real life is always full of caveats and simplistic arguments such of this never work well.

Harry Guerrilla · Nov 21, 2011

Canell said:
Howdy!

It seems to me that everyone doing and studying some politics should read this remarkable work - The Law (by Frederic Bastiat).

Unfortunately, the world has gone deeply in the "wrong" direction, the one that Bastiat would call "socialism" (what is socialism is another topic but he obviously means some state socialism like the one in the USSR. Just for your reference, I happen to believe in another definition of socialism, for example). Anyway, let me quote some of his thoughts for you and see how they fit in today's world, USA included.

Sounds familiar?

Bastiat is a pretty great writer, even for now.
"The Candlemaker's petition" is a great one too, kinda like "I,Pencil."

Under appreciated in the world of economic writers.

Slartibartfast · Nov 21, 2011

1Perry said:
I'm not sure how that applies specifically to socialism?

He is taking the tax from one and spend on another being socialism perspective.

Harry Guerrilla · Nov 21, 2011

megaprogman said:
Like any black and white principal put to paper, in some cases Bastiet is correct and in some cases not. Real life is always full of caveats and simplistic arguments such of this never work well.

Of course, but his writings were meant to convey a point to the common individual for them to better understand the core principle.
Including all the specific caveats, exceptions, occurrences would not be "pretty" in literary terms.

Slartibartfast · Nov 21, 2011

Harry Guerrilla said:
Of course, but his writings were meant to convey a point to the common individual for them to better understand the core principle.
Including all the specific caveats, exceptions, occurrences would not be "pretty" in literary terms.

Then it suffers from the same problem as most philosophical treatises, it does not do its subject the same justice as raw data does.

Harry Guerrilla · Nov 21, 2011

megaprogman said:
Then it suffers from the same problem as most philosophical treatises, it does not do its subject the same justice as raw data does.

Raw data has it's own problems.
Sometimes painting a false picture of a given situation.

Nothing is without it's problems.
All his treatise's are about the philosophy of the early liberals.

Canell · Nov 22, 2011

Xerographica said:
Canell...glad to see another fan of Bastiat on this forum. Personally, in my opinion Bastiat's greatest contribution to society was his development of the concept of opportunity cost. It's a real shame he didn't live longer.

If you get a chance you should check out my post...The Blind Men and the Scope of Government...and share your feedback on the value of allowing taxpayers to consider the opportunity costs of their tax allocation decisions.

OK, I'll try to find this in my language. It'll be easier for me.

1Perry said:
I'm not sure how that applies specifically to socialism?

Now, there is socialism and there is socialism, and there is socialism. Unfortunately, the term has been so abused that it has become dangerous to use, as it shows. I think Bastiat refers to the type of socialism we had in the USSR (a dictatorship by a small group of very powerful men) and is spreading now like fire in the West (bailouts, handouts, buyouts, heavy debt, concentration of power, etc).

megaprogman said:
Like any black and white principal put to paper, in some cases Bastiet is correct and in some cases not. Real life is always full of caveats and simplistic arguments such of this never work well.

They work for me, like 2+2=4 and that's that.

Antiderivative · Nov 23, 2011

Canell said:
Now, there is socialism and there is socialism, and there is socialism. Unfortunately, the term has been so abused that it has become dangerous to use, as it shows. I think Bastiat refers to the type of socialism we had in the USSR (a dictatorship by a small group of very powerful men) and is spreading now like fire in the West (bailouts, handouts, buyouts, heavy debt, concentration of power, etc).

I don't think Bastiat was referring to Soviet style socialism. The Law was published in 1850 (the same year of his untimely death), the Russian revolution that overthrew the Czars and created the Soviet Union was happened 67 years later, in 1917. Bastiat was not envisioning a Leninist Russia.

From his book, Economic Harmonies, The economists observe man, the laws of his nature and the social relations that derive from these laws. The socialists conjure up a society out of their imagination and then conceive of a human heart to fit this society. Bastiat was a classical liberal who believed that social order is the result of human action, not of human design.

Bastiat talks about this quality inherent in socialism in the The Law: The Socialists Wish to Play God.

Socialists look upon people as raw material to be formed into social combinations. This is so true that, if by chance, the socialists have any doubts about the success of these combinations, they will demand that a small portion of mankind be set aside to experiment upon. The popular idea of trying all systems is well known. And one socialist leader has been known seriously to demand that the Constituent Assembly give him a small district with all its inhabitants, to try his experiments upon.

In the same manner, an inventor makes a model before he constructs the full-sized machine; the chemist wastes some chemicals — the farmer wastes some seeds and land — to try out an idea.

But what a difference there is between the gardener and his trees, between the inventor and his machine, between the chemist and his elements, between the farmer and his seeds! And in all sincerity, the socialist thinks that there is the same difference between him and mankind!

The Law, by Frederic Bastiat

Bastiat also warns of the seductive lure of socialism in The Law.

1Perry · Nov 23, 2011

megaprogman said:
He is taking the tax from one and spend on another being socialism perspective.

And yet, many of those who claim to be capitalists approved of this very same thing with TARP.

Slartibartfast · Nov 23, 2011

Canell said:
They work for me, like 2+2=4 and that's that.

Human behavior is nowhere near as deterministic or predictable as a simple equation.

Canell · Nov 24, 2011

Antiderivative said:
I don't think Bastiat was referring to Soviet style socialism. The Law was published in 1850 (the same year of his untimely death), the Russian revolution that overthrew the Czars and created the Soviet Union was happened 67 years later, in 1917. Bastiat was not envisioning a Leninist Russia.

Certainly he didn't. I think he had in mind the bitter "socialist" experience of the French revolution.

I am a socialist myself, whatever that may sound to you. In fact, I don't see any difference between "genuine" socialism (at least what the etymology of the word suggests) and democracy as they both mean to me "rule by the people". Sadly, historically socialism was twisted in "rule the people" ideology, better described by Gary Allen as:

If one understands that socialism is not a share-the-wealth programme, but is in reality a method to consolidate and control the wealth, then the seeming paradox of super-rich men promoting socialism becomes no paradox at all. Instead, it becomes logical, even the perfect tool of power-seeking megalomaniacs.

Communism or more accurately, socialism, is not a movement of the downtrodden masses, but of the economic elite.

Antiderivative said:
Bastiat talks about this quality inherent in socialism in the The Law: The Socialists Wish to Play God.

Yes, if you want to impose socialism on other people, this is certainly true. If you want to invite them to your socialist "party", it isn't.

Canell · May 10, 2012

G. Edward Griffin on "legal plunder", capitalism ,socialism and so on.

Centinel · May 10, 2012

Canell said:
G. Edward Griffin on "legal plunder", capitalism ,socialism and so on.

Thanks for sharing this. His distinction between collectivism and individualism is succinct and clarifying. Either the purpose of the state is to serve the people, or the purpose of the people is to serve the state.

Henrin · May 10, 2012

The Law by Frederic Bastiat is my favorite book. I have been recommending it for years now. Obviously liberals that enjoy everything that he says is wrong won't agree, but I'm not expecting anything from them.

The Law (by Frederic Bastiat)

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The Law (by Frederic Bastiat)

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