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The Kurds Have Been Betrayed Again by Washington

Rogue Valley

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The Kurds Have Been Betrayed Again by Washington

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12/26/18
The warning signs were there all along, yet President Donald Trump’s brusque decision to pull U.S. forces out of northeast Syria nevertheless stunned Syria’s Kurds. Overnight, their dream of establishing an autonomous Kurdish region has been dashed, and they must now choose between a return to the mountains in a bid for survival, or staying put, awaiting a resurgent Assad regime and what it has in mind for them after six years of self-rule. They had pressed for advantage in the wake of the U.S. invasion of Iraq, which allowed Iraqi Kurds to establish a federal region; and again following popular protests in Syria in 2011, which evolved into a civil war, thereby creating a vacuum in the northeast that Syrian Kurds were quick to fill. When the Islamic State emerged on the scene in 2014, the Kurds in both Iraq and Syria readily joined the U.S. alliance forged to fight the group, which posed a direct threat to them. They had hoped that loyal support for the United States would translate, at war’s end, into Washington’s backing for steps toward Kurdish national objectives. It was not to be. Just over a year ago, the U.S. refused to come to the aid of Iraqi Kurds when the president of the Iraqi Kurdistan region, Masoud Barzani, ignored Washington’s insistence that he not stage a referendum on Kurdish statehood.

A second warning signal came in 2018, when the United States stood by as Turkish forces overran the majority-Kurdish district of Afrin, in northern Syria, pushing out fighters of the People’s Protection Units (YPG). The YPG had taken control of northern Syria in 2012, when Syrian government forces were tied down fighting rebels elsewhere in the country. Lacking manpower, Damascus was resigned to letting them do so. Both Barzani’s Peshmerga fighters in Iraq and the YPG in Syria proved outstanding and reliable assets in the anti-ISIS coalition’s drive to defeat the group. Yet neither would receive the reward to which they deemed themselves entitled. But what hurt was that Washington appears to have gone further, turning its back on them and leaving them at the mercy of the post-Ottoman states. There is no good way forward for the Kurds. The question now is whether Russia’s diplomats can rise to the task of preventing the worst-case scenario: a YPG fight to the death with Turkey, the Syrian Kurdish population’s panicked flight into northern Iraq, and, perhaps, the return of an ISIS keen to do what it knows how to do best: exploiting chaos.

Thousands of YPG/YPJ fighters perished in the fight against ISIS in Syria. I have spoken with some US soldiers in Syria. To a man, they are disgusted with Donald Trumps decision to leave the Syrian Kurds surrounded by enemies ..... Turkish forces, Syrian government forces, and the Sunni militia of Ahrar al-Sharqiya (all former al-Nusra/al-Queda) and aligned with Turkey.
 

OrphanSlug

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Not surprising, Turkey has been gunning for the Kurds so much I would offer they are a bigger priority for them to engage than ISIS is.
 

JANFU

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Not surprising, Turkey has been gunning for the Kurds so much I would offer they are a bigger priority for them to engage than ISIS is.

We saw one example of how Erdogan treats Kurd's, Kobani is just one example. ISIS was dealing with Turkish officials, for everything thing from supplies, oil exports, funneling hundreds of millions of dollars, and the sale of artifacts.

Going forwards past and during the US withdrawal we will see more attacks by Turkey targeting Kurd's.
The Kurds have only 1 choice, align themselves with Assad.


ISIS fighters were being treated in Turkish Hospitals.
 

Lord Tammerlain

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Not surprising, Turkey has been gunning for the Kurds so much I would offer they are a bigger priority for them to engage than ISIS is.

Well considering Turkey has been fighting with the PKK since the early 80s, which is fighting for an independent Kurdish state. So the last thing Turkey would want is an independent Kurdish state in Syria or Iraq. Turkey is of far more strategic value to the US than any Kurdish state would be.
 

Felis Leo

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The Kurds Have Been Betrayed Again by Washington

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Thousands of YPG/YPJ fighters perished in the fight against ISIS in Syria. I have spoken with some US soldiers in Syria. To a man, they are disgusted with Donald Trumps decision to leave the Syrian Kurds surrounded by enemies ..... Turkish forces, Syrian government forces, and the Sunni militia of Ahrar al-Sharqiya (all former al-Nusra/al-Queda) and aligned with Turkey.

Betrayal heaped atop betrayal.
 

Captain America

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Yeah, it's shameful what America has done to the Kurds. Not the first time either.

I mean, we helped the south Vietnamese, who helped us. We helped the Hmong, who helped us.

Yet, we stick it to the Kurds, who helped us, everytime. Sucks that their choice of residency is in such a contentious region.

Maybe we should give them Montana.
 

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Well considering Turkey has been fighting with the PKK since the early 80s, which is fighting for an independent Kurdish state. So the last thing Turkey would want is an independent Kurdish state in Syria or Iraq. Turkey is of far more strategic value to the US than any Kurdish state would be.
Yup, let us not forget that the Kurds have also engaged in terrorism, so we shouldnt place those white hats on their heads just yet.
 

Felis Leo

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Yup, let us not forget that the Kurds have also engaged in terrorism, so we shouldnt place those white hats on their heads just yet.

I would correct you there, PoS. It is some Kurds who have engaged in terrorism against Turkey. Not the Kurds, full stop. There are many Kurdish militant groups, not all of which are engaged in action against Turkey.
 

Felis Leo

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Yeah, it's shameful what America has done to the Kurds. Not the first time either.

I mean, we helped the south Vietnamese, who helped us. We helped the Hmong, who helped us.

Yet, we stick it to the Kurds, who helped us, everytime. Sucks that their choice of residency is in such a contentious region.

Maybe we should give them Montana.

I'm actually quite warm to this idea. I would personally be quite happy to give Kurdish refugees from Turkey, Iraq, Syria and Iran first place in line to immigrate to the United States, along with religious minority refugees from the Middle East (Christians, Yazidis, Baha'is, etc.). So long as they are not sectarian fanatics and resonate to America's values of democracy, rule of law, freedom of religion and tolerance of religious and ideological minorities, I think we should open our doors to them.
 
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OrphanSlug

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Well considering Turkey has been fighting with the PKK since the early 80s, which is fighting for an independent Kurdish state. So the last thing Turkey would want is an independent Kurdish state in Syria or Iraq. Turkey is of far more strategic value to the US than any Kurdish state would be.

Then we have weaponized foreign policy as there was a time we defended the Kurds against whoever (mostly.)
 

Lord Tammerlain

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Then we have weaponized foreign policy as there was a time we defended the Kurds against whoever (mostly.)

In Iraq, but with a guarantee of no independent state. The Kurd's were hoping that the fallout from ISIS would lead to an independent state and had a vote in Iraq about one. Turkey would do what ever it needs to, in order to prevent that from occurring. If that required going against the US it would so. Turkey is more important than the Kurd's to the US
 

Rogue Valley

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In Iraq, but with a guarantee of no independent state. The Kurd's were hoping that the fallout from ISIS would lead to an independent state and had a vote in Iraq about one. Turkey would do what ever it needs to, in order to prevent that from occurring. If that required going against the US it would so. Turkey is more important than the Kurd's to the US

This is not Iraq and the Barzani Kurds. This is the Syrian Kurds who call northern Syria (Rojava) home and have been fighting ISIS on the ground with US forces since 2014. Simply because Erdogan says the YPG/YPJ are aligned with the PKK in Turkey doesn't make it so.

I'd rather not have Turkey as an ally. It is a dictatorship. More journalists are incarcerated in Turkey than anywhere else on earth. Erdogan's military bombs Kurdish villages (collective punishment) in eastern Turkey. Hundreds dies when Turkey invaded the Kurdish canton of Afrin in eastern Rojava January-March 2018. All that stopped him from genocide was a US blocking force at Manbij. Erdogan is snuggling up to another dictator in Putin. Erdogan is buying Russian weapons which are not compatible with NATO systems. He wants to ethnically cleanse Rojava and repopulate it with Sunni Arabs, an idea he borrowed from Saddam. Turkey is not EU material and should be bounced from NATO. All through the Syrian war Erdogan has been assisting ISIS .... selling their oil and stolen artifacts, laundering their money, admitting wounded ISIS to Turkish hospitals, and permitting jihadists from around the globe free and unfettered passage through Turkey to join ISIS. Erdogan is working with Assad the butcher, along with Iran and Hezbollah. In May of 2017 Erdogan bodyguards attacked US protesters in Washington D.C. 11 were originally charged, but the Trump DoJ dropped the charges. Erdogan is also pressing Trump to turn over the cleric Gulen so he can be executed. We don't need depraved 'allies' that behave like this.

Just my :twocents:
 

Evilroddy

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This is not Iraq and the Barzani Kurds. This is the Syrian Kurds who call northern Syria (Rojava) home and have been fighting ISIS on the ground with US forces since 2014. Simply because Erdogan says the YPG/YPJ are aligned with the PKK in Turkey doesn't make it so.

I'd rather not have Turkey as an ally. It is a dictatorship. More journalists are incarcerated in Turkey than anywhere else on earth. Erdogan's military bombs Kurdish villages (collective punishment) in eastern Turkey. Hundreds dies when Turkey invaded the Kurdish canton of Afrin in eastern Rojava January-March 2018. All that stopped him from genocide was a US blocking force at Manbij. Erdogan is snuggling up to another dictator in Putin. Erdogan is buying Russian weapons which are not compatible with NATO systems. He wants to ethnically cleanse Rojava and repopulate it with Sunni Arabs, an idea he borrowed from Saddam. Turkey is not EU material and should be bounced from NATO. All through the Syrian war Erdogan has been assisting ISIS .... selling their oil and stolen artifacts, laundering their money, admitting wounded ISIS to Turkish hospitals, and permitting jihadists from around the globe free and unfettered passage through Turkey to join ISIS. Erdogan is working with Assad the butcher, along with Iran and Hezbollah. In May of 2017 Erdogan bodyguards attacked US protesters in Washington D.C. 11 were originally charged, but the Trump DoJ dropped the charges. Erdogan is also pressing Trump to turn over the cleric Gulen so he can be executed. We don't need depraved 'allies' that behave like this.

Just my :twocents:

Rogue Valley:

Regarding the bolded section of your quote, if Turkey is bounced from NATO it will very likely gravitate into the Russian sphere of influence. If that happens then NATO risks losing access to the Black Sea and the Caucasus region becomes a Russo-Turkish client region or is conquered. The cruel truth is NATO needs Turkey a lot more than Turkey needs NATO. I agree with your great distaste for the Erdogan Regime but tossing it into the arms of Mr. Putin's Russia is probably not a good idea. NATO and the West should bide their time, hold their collective noses and quietly work to undermine Erdogan at home and rebuild the Turkish Armed Forces' independence while remaining aligned with Turkey internationally. It sucks but Turkey is a regional linchpin and is too important to toss away.

Cheers.
Evilroddy.
 

Rogue Valley

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Rogue Valley:

Regarding the bolded section of your quote, if Turkey is bounced from NATO it will very likely gravitate into the Russian sphere of influence.

Turkey is already in Russia's sphere of influence. With Trumps cut-and-run, Erdogan has to check-in with the boss man.....

Turkey's Erdogan, Russia's Putin to meet over U.S. pullout from Syria, Erdogan says

If that happens then NATO risks losing access to the Black Sea and the Caucasus region becomes a Russo-Turkish client region or is conquered.

Poppycock. Turkey is bound by the Montreux Convention of 1936.

The cruel truth is NATO needs Turkey a lot more than Turkey needs NATO. I agree with your great distaste for the Erdogan Regime but tossing it into the arms of Mr. Putin's Russia is probably not a good idea. NATO and the West should bide their time, hold their collective noses and quietly work to undermine Erdogan at home and rebuild the Turkish Armed Forces' independence while remaining aligned with Turkey internationally. It sucks but Turkey is a regional linchpin and is too important to toss away.

Erdogan is already aligned with Russia and buying Russian weapons. Do you need to be smacked by a 2x4 for realization to sink in?

Turkey needles NATO by buying Russian weapons
 

Evilroddy

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Rogue Valley:

NATO would not be allowed to send large ships through the straits if Turkey enforced the letter of the law regarding the Montreux Convention. Displacement limits would prevent US and NATO amphibious assault ships and aircraft carriers from moving through the Straits if Turkey applied the letter of the law. Futthermore NATO would have to give Turkey 8-15 days of notice before moving through the strait and would have to give the date of transit ahead of time. No ship borne aircraft could fly during the transit and the transit would have to be done during daylight hours. Finally Turkey might be able to declare NATO warships as hostile warships and block them entirely.

https://cil.nus.edu.sg/wp-content/u...ntion-Regarding-the-Regime-of-the-Straits.pdf

So my point still stands.

Cheers.
Evilroddy.
 

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i'm fine with bringing all of the Kurds here as refugees.
 

Evilroddy

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i'm fine with bringing all of the Kurds here as refugees.

Helix:

That's a little over 2 million souls if you limit yourself to Syrian Kurds and about 35 million if you don't limit the immigration to just Syria. Now, not every Kurd will migrate of course but you are still talking multiple hundreds of thousands of immigrants into a US the political climate of which is manifestly anti-immigration. Therefore, while the sentiment is kind, the practicalities make acceptance of such a policy unlikely in the present political climate. Send some to us in the North. We still want immigrants although the anti-immigration cancer is beginning to metastasise north of the border these days, so do it quick!

Cheers.
Evilroddy.
 

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Yup, let us not forget that the Kurds have also engaged in terrorism, so we shouldnt place those white hats on their heads just yet.

One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter.
 

Helix

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Helix:

That's a little over 2 million souls if you limit yourself to Syrian Kurds and about 35 million if you don't limit the immigration to just Syria. Now, not every Kurd will migrate of course but you are still talking multiple hundreds of thousands of immigrants into a US the political climate of which is manifestly anti-immigration. Therefore, while the sentiment is kind, the practicalities make acceptance of such a policy unlikely in the present political climate. Send some to us in the North. We still want immigrants although the anti-immigration cancer is beginning to metastasise north of the border these days, so do it quick!

Cheers.
Evilroddy.

we can handle some refugees. the upside is that armchair hawks might be a little less likely to support a constant state of undeclared war if they have to pay higher taxes and have refugees in their hometowns. shared sacrifice, right?
 

Gaugingcatenate

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we can handle some refugees. the upside is that armchair hawks might be a little less likely to support a constant state of undeclared war if they have to pay higher taxes and have refugees in their hometowns. shared sacrifice, right?
We will just let them all stay at your house since you are the one inviting them.
 

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we can handle some refugees. the upside is that armchair hawks might be a little less likely to support a constant state of undeclared war if they have to pay higher taxes and have refugees in their hometowns. shared sacrifice, right?

Helix:

Anything which causes disengaged citizens to question the forever-war being waged globally in their name is a great idea in my books. However, many Americans don't see it that way and would resist such a programme. Gaugingcatenate is voicing a very strong political current in America, the refugee nimby syndrome. Folks like Gaugingcatenate will growl and protest if the US accepts even a fraction of the refugees and displaced persons its policies and militarism create around the world. They're Okay with blowing up others' homes but they will not open their own homes (or their borders) to make right what their government and armed forces have done to others in their name. Dehousing, great. Rehousing, not so much.

Cheers.
Evilroddy.
 
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Hawkeye10

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The Kurds Have Been Betrayed Again by Washington

defense-large.jpg




Thousands of YPG/YPJ fighters perished in the fight against ISIS in Syria. I have spoken with some US soldiers in Syria. To a man, they are disgusted with Donald Trumps decision to leave the Syrian Kurds surrounded by enemies ..... Turkish forces, Syrian government forces, and the Sunni militia of Ahrar al-Sharqiya (all former al-Nusra/al-Queda) and aligned with Turkey.

The Kurds really should say "Thank you America for all your help, we know that you did not have to help us" and then STFU.

Their victim routine got way old a long time ago with as poorly as they act.
 

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Helix:

Anything which causes disengaged citizens to question the forever-war being waged globally in their name is a great idea in my books. However, many Americans don't see it that way and would resist such a programme. Gaugingcatenate is voicing a very strong political current in America, the refugee nimby syndrome. Folks like Gaugingcatenate will growl and protest if the US accepts even a fraction of the refugees and displaced persons its policies and militarism create around the world. They're Okay with blowing up others' homes but they will not open their own homes (or their borders) to make right what their government and armed forces have done to others in their name. Dehousing, great. Rehousing, not so much.

Cheers.
Evilroddy.


Trump's idea is that the Syrian Army will regain control of the North East Syria, as the US troops leave, and the Kurds in North East will be protected by the territorial integrity of Syria.

"Syria’s military has arrived at the frontline of the flashpoint town of Manbij, after Kurdish fighters appealed to Damascus for help against the threat of attack by Turkey in the face of the withdrawal of US troops from the area.

It was not immediately clear whether US personnel, who are based in the town and have been patrolling Manbij and the tense frontline between it and adjacent towns where Turkey-backed fighters are based, were still present. The US-led coalition against Isis did not respond to a request for comment.

“We invite the Syrian government forces … to assert control over the areas our forces have withdrawn from, in particularly Manbij, and to protect these areas against a Turkish invasion,” a statement from the People’s Protection Units (YPG) said."

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/dec/28/syrian-kurdish-militia-manbij-turkey


"What should be done? The U.S. needs to press Turkey not to attack the Kurdish-led Syrian Democratic Forces (SDF). It should encourage the SDF to reach a stabilising deal with the Syrian regime, as, in parallel, Russia engages the SDF, the regime and Turkey. More space and time granted by Washington, even if limited, could allow for an orderly U.S. exit."


https://www.crisisgroup.org/middle-...yria/b066-avoiding-free-all-syrias-north-east



//
 
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marke

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The Kurds Have Been Betrayed Again by Washington

defense-large.jpg




Thousands of YPG/YPJ fighters perished in the fight against ISIS in Syria. I have spoken with some US soldiers in Syria. To a man, they are disgusted with Donald Trumps decision to leave the Syrian Kurds surrounded by enemies ..... Turkish forces, Syrian government forces, and the Sunni militia of Ahrar al-Sharqiya (all former al-Nusra/al-Queda) and aligned with Turkey.

I have no doubt public pressure has forced many American past presidents to make decisions which were very harmful to our allies around the world. We abandoned our allies in Vietnam, Cambodia and Laos. We forsook the Bay of Pigs patriots. We abandoned our allies in Iraq, Egypt and other war-torn areas. We forsook Georgia and Ukraine when Russia invaded. We have slapped Israel multiple times through multiple administrations. And so forth.
 

Helix

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Helix:

Anything which causes disengaged citizens to question the forever-war being waged globally in their name is a great idea in my books. However, many Americans don't see it that way and would resist such a programme. Gaugingcatenate is voicing a very strong political current in America, the refugee nimby syndrome. Folks like Gaugingcatenate will growl and protest if the US accepts even a fraction of the refugees and displaced persons its policies and militarism create around the world. They're Okay with blowing up others' homes but they will not open their own homes (or their borders) to make right what their government and armed forces have done to others in their name. Dehousing, great. Rehousing, not so much.

Cheers.
Evilroddy.

i support giving refuge to those who we depended on for help in an undeclared war and who are now in danger. also, all of their families and anyone else who might be affected by a US exit.
 
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