The Johnson Amendment

[poweRob]

If they pay their taxes there is no inhibiting of anything. But since you brought it up I can assure you that some Church leaders want the government auditing their books like wanting to get a brain tumor, they know some of them just might end up in prison.

Absolutely. IMO, if church books get opened, the exposed money laundering will make the mafia jealous.

 

[Casper]

Separation of church and state does not mean the churches can't discuss politics, it means the government should not create and enforce policy based on religious beliefs.

Apologies for interrupting.

Religious beliefs and Political beliefs are not the same thing, but it does seem like to hide behind one to keep their perks.

 

[poweRob]

You are missing the big point how is the 1st amendment being violated? only the govt can violate it.

That's not true in the slightest.

 

[Abbazorkzog]

ROTFLMAO.

Is that all you got?

*You've.

 

[DamnYankee]

Because I'm sick of watching this country be flushed down the toilet by morons who believe their magical sky monster is awesome while trampling on those who have a different magic sky monster all while not having to pay a dime in taxes to help support the country that's protecting their right to brainwash it's citizens. Churches are being protected by our military. Their congregants get there on our roads. They're using our infrastructure to preach hatred the least they could do is chip in on the tax bill.

Churches do some wonderful charity work, and you're sick of it? Strange notions you leftists have, no wonder you people are miserable.

 

[Crovax]

"non-profit" HAHAHAHAHAHA. Have you seen some of these churches, gold and marble, huge buildings and land holdings....non-profit. Religion is all about the profit, it's been that way since..well since man invented organized religion.

How much does any business or individual pay for income taxes. That value. Or they can keep the cash money and have restrictions on political speech/advisement during church services.

Well if you wernt completely ignorant about the subject you would know that employees of the church already pay income taxes as some paying payroll taxes also, and despite your hatred of religion churches would still be non-profit organizations and still pay no income taxes.

 

[Casper]

You are missing the big point how is the 1st amendment being violated? only the govt can violate it.

Taxing you does not violate your 1st A rights, but as with all rights there is no guarantee of freedom from consequences for expressing them.

 

[Crovax]

That's not true in the slightest.

Actually it is true.

 

[Casper]

Churches do some wonderful charity work, and you're sick of it? Strange notions you leftists have, no wonder you people are miserable.

Wow, I see you ran out of discussion points and went straight to the old personal attacks, a sure sign of some that has run out of bullets and is now throwing the empty gun at those they disagree with. I guess you are not the 1st A person you profess to be.

 

[poweRob]

Churches do some wonderful charity work, and you're sick of it? Strange notions you leftists have, no wonder you people are miserable.

Churches should be able to write off their charitable work but not the whole damn org IMO.

 

[Ikari]

So since they are "getting paid" then the left's "separation of church/state," is nullified. And, since it's nullified, then a state can choose an official religion. Agreed?

Who said anything about being nullified. this argument is horrendously stupid. I think one had to jump several sharks to make it.

 

[DamnYankee]

Does everyone in the church get to take the pulpit or the mic, nope I thought not. Good grief either you want Religion and Government to stay out of each others business or you do not, as I said You want a Double Standard.

The 1st amendment (religion clause) isn't there to restrict the people, it's there to restrict gov't. If you leftists want to maintain the "separation of church/state," then they ought not be taxed. Now, if you want to have a 1st amendment (freedom of speech clause) then said amendment ought to apply to everyone, not just who the left says it applies too. You want your cake and eat it too.

I have not presented a double standard, that was you.

 

[Ikari]

Well if you wernt completely ignorant about the subject you would know that employees of the church already pay income taxes as some paying payroll taxes also, and despite your hatred of religion churches would still be non-profit organizations and still pay no income taxes.

I wasn't talking about employees. Companies have to pay taxes on the money they bring in too.

Oh my "hatred of religion churches" hahahahahahahaha

If you can make an intellectually honest argument without resorting to such absurd hyperbole and lies, maybe we can continue.

 

[RJApple]

You should also apologize for not reading the post I was responding to and taking things out of context.

I don't see how I took anything out of context. You said, "If they [churches] are preaching politics, then it's no longer separation of church and state." I simply see this as an erroneous understanding of the separation of church and state.

I should amend my earlier post, though, and add that the separation of church and state also means that the government stays out of religious institutions, unless a law is broken. For instance, if a cult was practicing human sacrifice, that would be murder and therefore the government should step in, however, if a pastor says that same-sex marriage should be illegal because it's a sin, according to the Bible, and that God's wrath will rain down on the U.S. because it is legal (or some similar nonsense), then he should be left alone, in my opinion.

(Brackets mine)

 

[Ikari]

The 1st amendment (religion clause) isn't there to restrict the people, it's there to restrict gov't. If you leftists want to maintain the "separation of church/state," then they ought not be taxed. Now, if you want to have a 1st amendment (freedom of speech clause) then said amendment ought to apply to everyone, not just who the left says it applies too. You want your cake and eat it too.

I have not presented a double standard, that was you.

You want the government handout without any restrictions, it is you who wants the cake and to eat it too.

 

[RJApple]

Religious beliefs and Political beliefs are not the same thing, but it does seem like to hide behind one to keep their perks.

They are not the same thing. Yet, they are both, essentially, beliefs. They aren't that different. Many people hold certain religious beliefs for no logical reason, they simply do. Likewise, there are likely many people who hold select political beliefs for no logical reason, they simply do; 'it is how they were raised', or 'it just feels right', etc.

 

[Casper]

The 1st amendment (religion clause) isn't there to restrict the people, it's there to restrict gov't. If you leftists want to maintain the "separation of church/state," then they ought not be taxed. Now, if you want to have a 1st amendment (freedom of speech clause) then said amendment ought to apply to everyone, not just who the left says it applies too. You want your cake and eat it too.

I have not presented a double standard, that was you.

You are so confused. No a surprise there.

 

[Crovax]

Oh my "hatred of religion churches" hahahahahahahaha

If you can make an intellectually honest argument without resorting to such absurd hyperbole and lies, maybe we can continue.

Says the person who says chruchs are business profiteering off of their parishioners, claiming "religion is all about profit"

If you can make an intellectually honest argument without resorting to such absurd hyperbole and lies, maybe we can continue.

 

[DamnYankee]

Who said anything about being nullified.

I did. Can't you follow along?

this argument is horrendously stupid. I think one had to jump several sharks to make it.

Perhaps it is to you because you can't back up your position with rational thought. And I don't mean that in a disrespectful way. I mean that in a sense you want it your way and only your way. If you are going to tax churches, then the people in a state ought to be able to choose an official state religion.

 

[DamnYankee]

You are so confused. No a surprise there.

Nice. Is that your contribution to the thread, if so, thanks for playing.

 

[DamnYankee]

You want the government handout without any restrictions, it is you who wants the cake and to eat it too.

Okay, let's play your "handout" game." A "handout" is a tax exemption, so what? Don't you believe in the separation of church and state?

 

[Ikari]

I did. Can't you follow along?

So you're just making things up. OK, noted.

Perhaps it is to you because you can't back up your position with rational thought. And I don't mean that in a disrespectful way. I mean that in a sense you want it your way and only your way. If you are going to tax churches, then the people in a state ought to be able to choose an official state religion.

it's been backed up. A congregation is a captive audience. The Church is afforded government subsidies by not having to pay any taxes. As such, they cannot direct their congregation who to vote for since they have vested interest in keeping that money. They can either give up tax exemption, or accept the restrictions that come with government money.

 

[Ikari]

Says the person who says chruchs are business profiteering off of their parishioners, claiming "religion is all about profit"

Have you seen the Vatican? Any of the Mega Churches? Scientology's yacht?

Tell me it's not about the profit, lol.

If you can make an intellectually honest argument without resorting to such absurd hyperbole and lies, maybe we can continue.

Ohhh, burn.

 

[Ikari]

Okay, let's play your "handout" game." A "handout" is a tax exemption, so what? Don't you believe in the separation of church and state?

Fundamentally I think that a Church should be able to say what it likes, and that it should also have to pay taxes like any other business entity. I don't think government should be allowed to make religious laws, nor should they be allowed to promote, diminish, or establish any particular religion.

But within the laws we have, the Churches do get government handouts, and government handouts come with strings. In this case, it is the restriction on being able to tell a captive audience who to vote for.

 

[DamnYankee]

Fundamentally I think that a Church should be able to say what it likes, and that it should also have to pay taxes like any other business entity. I don't think government should be allowed to make religious laws, nor should they be allowed to promote, diminish, or establish any particular religion.

I believe churches should not pay taxes and its members should be free to exercise the right to free speech. There are plenty of examples where leftist gives handouts, hell’s bells, handouts is what keeps the leftist party alive. So why is this “handout” any different? Is it due to bigotry? Hate? What?

If churches were to pay taxes, I believe the people should be able to choose a state religion, put Nativity Scenes on public property, and practice their religion in public schools without fear of being harassed by school officials. That’s fair. You leftist preach fairness right?

But within the laws we have, the Churches do get government handouts, and government handouts come with strings. In this case, it is the restriction on being able to tell a captive audience who to vote for.

There are no “captive audiences,” LMAO, that’s hilarious! Anyway, lol, you either believe in the freedom of speech or you don’t. And since the church is a private organization, their money is their money not the gov’t’s. So there really isn’t any “handouts” in that regard.