The Israeli Defeat in Lebanon (1 Viewer)

[MarineCorpsCandidate]

I feel that Hezbollah (hope I spelled it correctly) started this last skirmish between Israel and this guerrilla/terrorist organization. However, I think that this last little flare up was a defeat for Israel and a victory for Hezbollah. Hezbollah is now stronger, their were military failures on the part of Israel, Israel failed to stop the rockets raining down on Israeli territory (partly because their Chief of Staff turned down American offers to sell Israel bunker busting bombs that could have gotten most of the missles), Hezbollah now has won the hearts and minds of the Lebanonese people while turning against Israel; Israel attempted to fight an unconventional, assymetric war using conventional, symetric tatics. Israel also made the classic mistake of under-estimating their opponent. Never under-estimate your opponent. I will say this, one thing that Israel did correctly was the use of commando raids that unloaded commandos from helicopters in an area where targets were to be killed, killed those Hezbollah leadership targets and then were taken out of the area by helicopter again in a lightening hit and run strike. This was a good tatic on the part of the Israelies and appears to be successful because it is assymetric in nature. It also put Hezbollah members in a state of fear because they never knew when or where they would be hit by these hit and run helicopter commando raids. This tatic gave Israel a good psychological advantage, but the rest of the war was a defeat for Israel in my view with Hezbollah being the winner. Anybody disagree?

 

[MarineCorpsCandidate]

Well, since I can no longer edit this post, I was going to say General Douglas MacArthur stated that "their is no substitute for absolute victory." Israel failed to achieve absolute victory because Israel underestimated her opponents and used for the most part, conventional tatics in an unconventional war.

 

[jfuh]

Well, since I can no longer edit this post, I was going to say General Douglas MacArthur stated that "their is no substitute for absolute victory." Israel failed to achieve absolute victory because Israel underestimated her opponents and used for the most part, conventional tatics in an unconventional war.

This is not entirely accurate. Israel did not achieve absolute victory because that was never thier intention - not to mention a cease fire had been brokered.
As for unconventional tactics, again not true. Israel also has used such as demonstrated by thier commando unit dressed as Lebanese army.

 

[MarineCorpsCandidate]

This is not entirely accurate. Israel did not achieve absolute victory because that was never thier intention - not to mention a cease fire had been brokered.
As for unconventional tactics, again not true. Israel also has used such as demonstrated by thier commando unit dressed as Lebanese army.

That's the only decent Israeli tatic that I have seen in dealing with Hezbollah. Overall, it suffered a defeat to Hezbollah and seemed to rely too heavily on airstrikes which killed civilians rather than Hezbollah militants and today, Hezbollah is stronger than it was just before the conflict started. Israel's stated objectives of crushing Hezbollah and freeing kidnapped soldiers were not met. They failed to achieve their stated objectives through the use of military force. With Hezbollah surviving, raining missles down on Israel and getting away with it, Israel failing to crush Hezbollah and failing to get kidnap soldiers rescued, it is safe to say this was a defeat for Israel. Hezbollah is stronger now than what it was before.

It seems Israel was also bogged down in a guerrilla war for about 18 years in Lebanon before being forced to withdraw in defeat as well. So this will not be Israel's first defeat in Lebanon. Israel must learn to adapt to unconventional warfare and to stop using brute conventional tatic against an unconventional enemy. It simply won't work given the current circumstances in Lebanon. Israel hasn't seemed to learned it's lesson from it's first defeat in Lebanon. Absolute victory for Isreal would be the total destruction and dismemberment of Hezbollah and the unconditional return of the two kidnapped Israeli soldiers. But how would you achieve an absolute victory over a group that hides in the shadows and uses assymetric warfare? For starters, Israel must deprive Hezbollah of it's support base by winning Hezbollah's support base over to the Isreali world view.

 

[Captain America]

I ask you this. Where would you rather have sat out this little skirmish? In Isreal or Lebanon?

Unless the 100 cable channels I got are all lying, it looks to me like HB/Lebanon got the $hl+ kicked outta them! :shock:

Lebanon got thair arse handed to them on a platter.

:spin: it all you like. The proof is in the pudding.

The only thing Isreal did wrong was to stop bombing them into oblivion. If that means they lost, well, then so be it.

 

[Vader]

I ask you this. Where would you rather have sat out this little skirmish? In Isreal or Lebanon?

Unless the 100 cable channels I got are all lying, it looks to me like HB/Lebanon got the $hl+ kicked outta them! :shock:

Lebanon got thair arse handed to them on a platter.

:spin: it all you like. The proof is in the pudding.

The only thing Isreal did wrong was to stop bombing them into oblivion. If that means they lost, well, then so be it.

I agree. The only people who say otherwise are extremists and their brainwashed minions.

:doh

 

[jfuh]

I ask you this. Where would you rather have sat out this little skirmish? In Isreal or Lebanon?

Unless the 100 cable channels I got are all lying, it looks to me like HB/Lebanon got the $hl+ kicked outta them! :shock:

Lebanon got thair arse handed to them on a platter.

:spin: it all you like. The proof is in the pudding.

The only thing Isreal did wrong was to stop bombing them into oblivion. If that means they lost, well, then so be it.

With respect.
Indeed, Hezbolla got bombed and took one helluva beating. Yet they are still there. Simply by staying around and still standing in itself was a victory for Hezbolla.
The most successful propaganda achieved by Hezbolla now has been that they've made themselves look like freedom fighters now.

 

[mpg]

With respect.
Indeed, Hezbolla got bombed and took one helluva beating. Yet they are still there. Simply by staying around and still standing in itself was a victory for Hezbolla.

The most successful propaganda achieved by Hezbolla now has been that they've made themselves look like freedom fighters now.

I don't agree that anything less than total annhilation of Hezbollah is a victory for them. Israel is still standing also.

The success of their propaganda is measured by the willingness of people to swallow it. Noone would swallow their propaganda unless they were cheering for Hezbollah all along.

 

[MarineCorpsCandidate]

I don't agree that anything less than total annhilation of Hezbollah is a victory for them. Israel is still standing also.

The success of their propaganda is measured by the willingness of people to swallow it. Noone would swallow their propaganda unless they were cheering for Hezbollah all along.

Alot of Isreali reservists who fought against Hezbollah don't seem to think that Israel achieved their objectives. As a matter of fact, they are criticizing their government and their military quite often. Do you mean to say that these Israeli reservist that fought Hezbollah are cheering for Hezbollah? Your logic simply doesn't add up. Simply because one talks of facts as they actually happenned doesn't mean that they are cheering for the other side. One could say that only those people who fall for the propaganda line given by conservatives that Isreal achieved a victory in Lebanon was cheering Israel all along rather than being objective, impartial observers who merely state the facts as they are. Propaganda, is something that is used by all sides, including those who are attempting to rationalize the irrational. Hezbollah is very much alive and well, no Israel soldiers were returned, the stated Israeli objective of "putting Hezbollah out of business" was a complete and total failure. Hezbollah is still in business and Israel has failed to achieve their stated objectives. Hezbollah has also grown stronger not weaker due to this recent skirmish. Given that is the case the only concievable winner, logically and factually speaking is Hezbollah. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that.

 

[jfuh]

I don't agree that anything less than total annhilation of Hezbollah is a victory for them. Israel is still standing also.

The success of their propaganda is measured by the willingness of people to swallow it. Noone would swallow their propaganda unless they were cheering for Hezbollah all along.

A victory for who? I'm confused on what you're saying in that first sentence.
Israel stands yes, and thus the multiple instances that the arab countries jointly launched invasions against Israel were total utter failures that only garnished massive support world wide towards Israel's cause.
Today however it different. Though we see that Hezbolla kidnapped those 2 soldiers, but Israel also destroyed the homes of countless southern Lebanese civilians. All Hezbolla need do is taught around those photos for thier propaganda as "freedom fighters" (hey, I know it's bs, but not the southern lebanese).
These ppl now in south lebanon and various other parts of the arab world are swallowing this propagands by hezbolla that Israel is evil and so on.
There is no denial that Hezbolla in coordination with it's relief efforts towards south lebanon is garnishing much support in that region.

What do we do about it now? Invade? How do you fight against this ideological body? What is a practical workable solution?

 

[MarineCorpsCandidate]

There is no denial that Hezbolla in coordination with it's relief efforts towards south lebanon is garnishing much support in that region.

What do we do about it now? Invade? How do you fight against this ideological body? What is a practical workable solution?

That was the first step Hezbolla took, was securing the support of the people, by offerring social services, relief services, helping to pay medical bills for needy famalies. Resolving issues that the Lebanonese government failed to resolve or to address that concern the people. Hezbolla needs the support of the local population to exist and Hezbolla knows that. The first step is to deny Hezbolla the support of their local population.

 

[jfuh]

The first step is to deny Hezbolla the support of their local population.

Easier said then done. How would we go about doing so?

 

[MrFungus420]

That was the first step Hezbolla took, was securing the support of the people, by offerring social services, relief services, helping to pay medical bills for needy famalies. Resolving issues that the Lebanonese government failed to resolve or to address that concern the people. Hezbolla needs the support of the local population to exist and Hezbolla knows that. The first step is to deny Hezbolla the support of their local population.

Hizballah is a part of the Lebanese government.

It's a little difficult to get the locals to deny Hizballah support when they are the ones that have voted them into the government in the first place.

Hizballah had the support of the local populace long before they started doling out any aid.

The only reason that this could be considered a loss for Israel is because they tried to be civilized when fighting against a group who has the stated purpose of the destruction of Israel. Israel even went so far as to warn the civilians before they attacked to try to minimize civilian casualties.

 

[mpg]

Alot of Isreali reservists who fought against Hezbollah don't seem to think that Israel achieved their objectives. As a matter of fact, they are criticizing their government and their military quite often. Do you mean to say that these Israeli reservist that fought Hezbollah are cheering for Hezbollah? Your logic simply doesn't add up. Simply because one talks of facts as they actually happenned doesn't mean that they are cheering for the other side. One could say that only those people who fall for the propaganda line given by conservatives that Isreal achieved a victory in Lebanon was cheering Israel all along rather than being objective, impartial observers who merely state the facts as they are. Propaganda, is something that is used by all sides, including those who are attempting to rationalize the irrational. Hezbollah is very much alive and well, no Israel soldiers were returned, the stated Israeli objective of "putting Hezbollah out of business" was a complete and total failure. Hezbollah is still in business and Israel has failed to achieve their stated objectives. Hezbollah has also grown stronger not weaker due to this recent skirmish. Given that is the case the only concievable winner, logically and factually speaking is Hezbollah. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that.

Neither side achieved their objectives.

 

[mpg]

A victory for who? I'm confused on what you're saying in that first sentence.
Israel stands yes, and thus the multiple instances that the arab countries jointly launched invasions against Israel were total utter failures that only garnished massive support world wide towards Israel's cause.
Today however it different. Though we see that Hezbolla kidnapped those 2 soldiers, but Israel also destroyed the homes of countless southern Lebanese civilians. All Hezbolla need do is taught around those photos for thier propaganda as "freedom fighters" (hey, I know it's bs, but not the southern lebanese).
These ppl now in south lebanon and various other parts of the arab world are swallowing this propagands by hezbolla that Israel is evil and so on.
There is no denial that Hezbolla in coordination with it's relief efforts towards south lebanon is garnishing much support in that region.

What do we do about it now? Invade? How do you fight against this ideological body? What is a practical workable solution?

The fact that Hezbollah is still standing doesn't mean that Hezbollah won. The fact that Israel is still standing doesn't mean that Israel won. Neither side won.

 

[jfuh]

The fact that Hezbollah is still standing doesn't mean that Hezbollah won. The fact that Israel is still standing doesn't mean that Israel won. Neither side won.

That fact does not mean hezbolla won, no, however the fact that they now have more support because of the fighting does me they won. The fact that Hezbolla now has more support and power then the Lebanese government does mean they won.
The fact that Israel did not crush Hezbolla or get thier two soliders back is at best that they didn't loose all thier objectives.

 

[MarineCorpsCandidate]

Isreal did not produce the desired effect with their military response to Hezbollah. They did not achieve anything and the fact that Hezbollah managed to rain missles down on Israel unchecked, Israel failed to retake their two kidnapped soldiers and Hezbollah has the support of the Lebanonese people now than ever before is a clear cut victory for Hezbollah and a clear cut defeat for Israel. Call a spade a spade. If Israel were to use the military against Hezbollah, they should have used a special forces type unit trained in unconventional warfare without the use of massive aerial bombardments or the introduction of regular conventional combat troops. I think Israel's intent by using conventional means and massive airstrike were to send a message to Iran, but then it backfired on Israel and now the Arab world thinks "SEE, Israel can be defeated, we did it once with Hezbollah (actually, Hezbollah defeated Israel when it bogged Israel down in a guerrilla war for 18 years in Lebanon before this new crisis touched off), we can do it again." So it did not have the effect of deturrence that Israel was seeking to burn into the minds of Arabs when they launched this venture.

 

[oldreliable67]

An article in today's WSJ by Amer Taheri posits that Hezbollah did not win in Lebanon. Taheri writes that "By controlling the flow of information from Lebanon throughout the conflict, and help from all those who disagree with U.S. policies for different reasons, Hezbollah may have won the information war in the West. In Lebanon, the Middle East and the broader Muslim space, however, the picture is rather different."

The main points of his case are:

Initially Hezbollah had hesitated between declaring victory and going into mourning for its "martyrs." The latter course would have been more in harmony with Shiite traditions centered on the cult of Imam Hussain's martyrdom in 680 A.D. Some members of Hezbollah wished to play the martyrdom card so that they could accuse Israel, and, through it, the U.S., of war crimes. They knew that it was easier for Shiites, brought up in a culture of eternal victimhood, to cry over an imagined calamity than laugh in the joy of a claimed victory.

Politically, however, Hezbollah had to declare victory for a simple reason: It had to pretend that the death and desolation it had provoked had been worth it. A claim of victory was Hezbollah's shield against criticism of a strategy that had led Lebanon into war without the knowledge of its government and people. Mr. Nasrallah alluded to this in television appearances, calling on those who criticized him for having triggered the war to shut up because "a great strategic victory" had been won.
[...]
The Green Flood has been unleashed to silence criticism of Mr. Nasrallah and his masters in Tehran. But the trick does not seem to be working. "If Hezbollah won a victory, it was a pyrrhic one," says Walid Abi-Mershed, a leading Lebanese columnist. "They made Lebanon pay too high a price -- for which they must be held accountable."

Hezbollah is also criticized from within the Lebanese Shiite community, which accounts for some 40% of the population. Sayyed Ali al-Amin, the grand old man of Lebanese Shiism, has broken years of silence to criticize Hezbollah for provoking the war, and called for its disarmament. In an interview granted to the Beirut An-Nahar, he rejected the claim that Hezbollah represented the whole of the Shiite community. "I don't believe Hezbollah asked the Shiite community what they thought about [starting the] war," Mr. al-Amin said. "The fact that the masses [of Shiites] fled from the south is proof that they rejected the war. The Shiite community never gave anyone the right to wage war in its name."

There were even sharper attacks. Mona Fayed, a prominent Shiite academic in Beirut, wrote an article also published by An-Nahar last week. She asks: Who is a Shiite in Lebanon today? She provides a sarcastic answer: A Shiite is he who takes his instructions from Iran, terrorizes fellow believers into silence, and leads the nation into catastrophe without consulting anyone. Another academic, Zubair Abboud, writing in Elaph, a popular Arabic-language online newspaper, attacks Hezbollah as "one of the worst things to happen to Arabs in a long time." He accuses Mr. Nasrallah of risking Lebanon's existence in the service of Iran's regional ambitions.

Before he provoked the war, Mr. Nasrallah faced growing criticism not only from the Shiite community, but also from within Hezbollah. Some in the political wing expressed dissatisfaction with his over-reliance on the movement's military and security apparatus. Speaking on condition of anonymity, they described Mr. Nasrallah's style as "Stalinist" and pointed to the fact that the party's leadership council (shura) has not held a full session in five years. Mr. Nasrallah took all the major decisions after clearing them with his Iranian and Syrian contacts, and made sure that, on official visits to Tehran, he alone would meet Iran's "Supreme Guide" Ali Khamenei.
[...]
Mr. Nasrallah was also criticized for his acknowledgement of Ali Khamenei as Marjaa al-Taqlid (Source of Emulation), the highest theological authority in Shiism. Highlighting his bay'aah (allegiance), Mr. Nasrallah kisses the man's hand each time they meet. Many Lebanese Shiites resent this because Mr. Khamenei, a powerful politician but a lightweight in theological terms, is not recognized as Marjaa al-Taqlid in Iran itself. The overwhelming majority of Lebanese Shiites regard Grand Ayatollah Ali Sistani, in Iraq, or Ayatollah Muhammad-Hussein Fadhlallah, in Beirut, as their "Source of Emulation."

Some Lebanese Shiites also question Mr. Nasrallah's strategy of opposing Prime Minister Siniora's "Project for Peace," and instead advancing an Iranian-backed "Project of Defiance." The coalition led by Mr. Siniora wants to build Lebanon into a haven of peace in the heart of a turbulent region. His critics dismiss this as a plan "to create a larger Monaco." Mr. Nasrallah's "Project of Defiance," however, is aimed at turning Lebanon into the frontline of Iranian defenses in a war of civilizations between Islam (led by Tehran) and the "infidel," under American leadership. "The choice is between the beach and the bunker," says Lebanese scholar Nadim Shehadeh. There is evidence that a majority of Lebanese Shiites would prefer the beach.

On balance, it appears that the Hezbollah control of the information flow from Lebanon contributed strongly to the appearance that Hezbollah was victorious. As more time goes by and the examination of the conflict becomes more balanced and less tailored for CNN, that conclusion appears considerably less certain. Even so, the matches to light further conflagration are still in Hezbollah's hands. By backing away from the UN resolution's requirements to disarm Hezbollah in South Lebanon, Hezbollah is given the wherewithal to re-start the rain of rockets at a time of its choosing.

 

[MarineCorpsCandidate]

Battles are not won on the battlefield, they are won in the minds of people. Everything you do is mind over matter. Not matter over mind. You can't win when you put matter over mind. We have Tashah who is a poster on this message board, she served in Lebanon with the IDF, let's ask her who she thinks won this little skirmish. I hear she is not too happy with her political leaders right now.

 

[MarineCorpsCandidate]

Everything starts with your mind. Kinda like Ranger school or the Green Beret Q Course or Marine Recon. Those who survive and become part of these elite organizations, did so, because they had already won the battle in their minds.

 

[Monkey Mind]

Hezbollah and the Arab media like to say that they won, but such a "victory" is purely political. The reality is that Lebanon's infrastructure is trashed, Hezbollah's weapon stores are depleted, their fighters are killed and scattered. It's true that Israel did not achieve all of its objectives, which sucks. However, they did do enough damage to put a stop to the rocket attacks for a while. If the rockets start up again, Israel will surely respond as before.

It will be interesting if the UN peacekeepers get in there and start really trying to disarm Hezbollah. When that happens things will get even more messy. It remains to be seen which side will play that most to its advantage. It would seem the edge goes to the terrorists, but that may not be the case. If Hezbollah starts killing Italian or French or Turkish soldiers, the world might actually decide to make a sincere effort at eradicating them and holding their sponsor (Iran) accountable.

 

[jujuman13]

Partial quote by MARINECORPCANDIDATE.

(Israel must deprive Hezbollah of it's support base by winning Hezbollah's support base over to the Israeli world view.)


(Hezbollah's support base)

Just who does he think is Hizbollah's support base?

Fortunately he has others who are better informed who are able to tell him.

Hizbollah was originally set up by Lebanese Shiites to force out of Lebanon the IDF who had been in Southern Lebanon for 18 years.
They were and still are heavily supported by Iran and supplied with arms from Iran through Syria and then into Lebanon.

Now if you think that Iran with it's present power structure is going to change it's opinion of Israel (which they wish to see removed from the map) then my fine candidate you had best not aim to join any strategic command in the Marines, better you remain a grunt who merely needs to remember three words, Sir, yes Sir.

 

[MarineCorpsCandidate]

Now if you think that Iran with it's present power structure is going to change it's opinion of Israel (which they wish to see removed from the map) then my fine candidate you had best not aim to join any strategic command in the Marines, better you remain a grunt who merely needs to remember three words, Sir, yes Sir.

On a more serious note; Hezbollah, has programs that help the local population in which they operate within (the local population being in Lebanon and not Iran). Even with arms coming from Syria and Iran, Hezbollah still requires the support of the local people in order to survive in their area of operations. In order for guerrilla movements to suceed, they must have a safe sanctuary, arms and money from a foreign power (in the case of Hezbollah that foreign power is Syrian and Iran), fighting a foreign army that has come from outside the borders, the willingness to accept heavy losses and most importantly, the support of the local population in which they operate in.

And with all the social programs of Hezbollah that assisted civilians of the local population with their needs for living, surviving and the massive bombings of Israel that killed these same civilians who had nothing to do with the kidnapping of Israeli soldiers; they have most certainly achieved the support of the local population who have now turned their hatred against Israel but were at first angry with Hezbollah. Israel had several opportunities to turn the local population against Hezbollah but failed to exploit these opportunities or to see these opportunities when they presented themselves to Israel. This would have enabled Israel to deny Hezbollah the support of the local population and perhaps win them over to Israel's side which would have made life very miserable for Hezbollah. They could have then used the local population to go after members of Hezbollah, to put the squeeze on them and to gather more intelligence that could be useful in dealing with the threat that Hezbollah presents to Israel. Israel also failed to understand the kind of enemy they were dealing with. Unfortunately for Israel, they had political leadership that think in the same manner as you do and it is the reason why they were ultimately defeated in this conflict. They put matter over mind and you can't beat an enemy that puts mind over matter when you put matter over mind to try to defeat them.

 

[MarineCorpsCandidate]

I mean heck, ideally, Israel could have won the local population over to it's side, then turned around armed and trained these people to defend themselves against Hezbollah or to actually go after Hezbollah. That's what they call counter-insurgency warfare.

 

[Monkey Mind]

On a more serious note; Hezbollah, has programs that help the local population in which they operate within (the local population being in Lebanon and not Iran).

Yes, they fire rockets from people's backyards, get lots of civilians killed while they hide behind them like dogs, then they offer blood money and bribes to the families of those same victims.

Even with arms coming from Syria and Iran, Hezbollah still requires the support of the local people in order to survive in their area of operations.

This is true, and hopefully the people will wake up and see that Hezbollah does not represent the Lebanese people, it is the tool of Iran's proxy war.

Israel had several opportunities to turn the local population against Hezbollah but failed to exploit these opportunities or to see these opportunities when they presented themselves to Israel. This would have enabled Israel to deny Hezbollah the support of the local population and perhaps win them over to Israel's side which would have made life very miserable for Hezbollah. They could have then used the local population to go after members of Hezbollah, to put the squeeze on them and to gather more intelligence that could be useful in dealing with the threat that Hezbollah presents to Israel.

I'm curious if you have any examples. I don't think Israel had any chance of turning the population against Hezbollah.

Israel also failed to understand the kind of enemy they were dealing with.

On the surface that's a ludicrous statement. Who could understand the nature of Hezbollah better than Israel, they've been fighting them for decades. Crazily enough though I think you're right. Faced with the sheer barbarity of Hezbollah's blatant strategy of using civilians as shields, then manipulating the media reports to wage a war of opinion, Israel just couldn't stomach it. Or maybe the US couldn't, and pressured them into accepting the cease-fire.

Unfortunately for Israel, they had political leadership that think in the same manner as you do and it is the reason why they were ultimately defeated in this conflict.

Neither side can claim any legitimate victory. It's naive to even think the conflict is over.

They put matter over mind and you can't beat an enemy that puts mind over matter when you put matter over mind to try to defeat them.

That doesn't make any sense. Please come up with a new catch phrase, this one is growing tiresome.