The Islamic Antichrist

[Paschendale]

That's fine, because I just corrected yours.

You like those new international translations of the bible, don't you? Fun fact, those translations are not in the least bit accurate about anything the OT actually says in any Hebrew text used by any Jew. The messiah is not divine in any way. He (and it is always a he, because ancient Hebrews were a pretty misogynistic bunch) is simply a chosen prophet. And he is supposed to herald a time when Judaism rules the world, not create a new religion.

The entire Christian concept of faith is also not a part of Judaism. It's certainly not a part of the story of Abraham. Abraham was righteous merely because he worshiped the Hebrew god. That was due to overt actions and not just about his personal ideas. Judaism doesn't do faith.

Matthew likes to toss around the word prophet a lot, but he's making up most of those prophecies in his own writing. He even makes up one about the messiah being from Nazareth. There is no such prophecy in Judaism anywhere about the messiah. Nor is the one from 1-23, the reference to the passage from Isaiah, actually about the messiah.

I recommend not relying on texts that were specifically edited to promote Christianity for your knowledge of Judaism.

 

[Logicman]

You like those new international translations of the bible, don't you? Fun fact, those translations are not in the least bit accurate about anything the OT actually says in any Hebrew text used by any Jew.

The NIV uses the oldest extant manuscripts. And it is a good representation of the Old and New Testaments, though of course there are minor differences. I also like the NKJV and the NASB.

The messiah is not divine in any way.

I just showed you otherwise in my last post. Jeremiah 23:5-6 - The Messiah as God

I guess I'm not surprised you would fall in line with Old Testament Judaism, which is now whatever a Rabbi teaches. Remember, the Bible recalls how the Jews rebelled against God and killed their own prophets. And you want me to fall in line with what they believe(d)? Sorry, they blew it, although some became believers in Jesus during the 1st Century.

The entire Christian concept of faith is also not a part of Judaism. It's certainly not a part of the story of Abraham. Abraham was righteous merely because he worshiped the Hebrew god.

Like I said, Abraham was declared righteous by faith (in God - Genesis 15:6). So who do you think Jesus is? He's God. So nothing has really changed in that one regard.

Matthew likes to toss around the word prophet a lot, but he's making up most of those prophecies in his own writing. He even makes up one about the messiah being from Nazareth.

Matthew has Jesus being born in Bethlehem (Matthew 2:1), and later the family moved to Nazareth. Later, he was called a Nazarene Matthew 2:23).

There is no such prophecy in Judaism anywhere about the messiah. Nor is the one from 1-23, the reference to the passage from Isaiah, actually about the messiah.

Your opinion. The Jewish TARGUM JONATHAN says this Son (in Isaiah 9:6-7) is the Messiah:

"...A child has been born to us, a son has been given to us...and his name has been called from of old, Wonderful counsellor, Mighty God, He who lives for ever, the Anointed one (or Messiah) in whose days peace shall increase upon us."

I recommend not relying on texts that were specifically edited to promote Christianity for your knowledge of Judaism.

I've checked them all out and don't see any real issues.

 

[Logicman]

The messiah is not divine in any way.

In a prior post I showed you examples of ancient Jewish Rabbis who believed the Messiah is divine.

Now, we need to clarify which Messiah you are talking about. Because there are two types of Messiahs that the Jews have written about.

The two Faces of Messiah

There are two "faces" of Messiah in Jewish writings.

1. Messiah ben David - the conquering king who annihilates Israel's enemies and brings peace to the nation / world.

http://www.menorah.org/tembd14.html

2. Messiah ben Joseph - the suffering servant who suffers and atones for sin.

Messiah ben Joseph - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

These are the two "faces" of the Jewish Messiah. To date, apart from their actually expecting two Messiahs to appear, Judaism has been unable to reconcile the two into one person. Christianity reconciles the two into one individual - Jesus Christ, based on two separate advents, where the Messiah comes first as the suffering servant (which Jesus did as Messiah ben Joseph), and next when the Messiah comes again at the second coming as the conquering king (Messiah ben David).

Someone may say nowhere in the scriptures does it say the Messiah will die and then go on and live again. However, numerous ancient rabbis believed Isaiah chapter 53 was a prophecy concerning the Messiah ben Joseph. One could also make the argument that nowhere in scripture does it say the Messiah will only appear once, as Messiah ben David. There are also rabbinic writings that Daniel chapter 9 (Daniel 9:24-27) speaks about the Messiah dying, and after that "war continues until the end."

Fact is the Jews were looking for Messiah ben David, and Messiah ben Joseph showed up first. And the rest, as they say, is history.

 

[RGacky3]

As always, you're wrong. All I'm doing is hopeing for an intelligent conversation based upon a book I have just read.

And, true to form, you show up and dissappoint.

Do you want me to go point by ponit? I can if you'd like.

 

[The Baron]

I was hoping I could have an interesting discussion with you. But obviously, this is not possible, since you are a bigoted person who hates other religions and isn't even interested in different views on the same question. When you keep up this attitude when attempting to proselityze, you won't convince anyone. Just saying.

Yea, right. It's easier to accuse "hate" instead of intelligence.

Just sayin'.

 

[The Baron]

You are simply wrong.

"Abrahamic religions (also Abrahamism) are the monotheistic faiths of Middle East origin, emphasizing and tracing their common origin to Abraham[1] or recognizing a spiritual tradition identified with him.[2][3][4] They are one of the major divisions in comparative religion, along with Indian religions[5] (Dharmic) and East Asian religions[5] (Taoic).
As of the early twenty-first century, it was estimated that 54% of the world's population (3.8 billion people) considered themselves adherents of the Abrahamic religions, about 30% of other religions, and 16% of no organized religion.[6][7] The Abrahamic religions originated in the Middle East.[8]
The largest Abrahamic religions in chronological order of founding are Judaism, Christianity, and Islam. ..."
Abrahamic religions - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

What you've posted does not even address the points I made. But, you don't have to take my word for it...go ask a Muslim if what I'm saying is wrong.

 

[German guy]

Yea, right. It's easier to accuse "hate" instead of intelligence.

Just sayin'.

Well, you have left no doubt that you can't be respectful towards Islam and the Baha'i faith. I'll gladly discuss with you, if you can manage to show some respect for members of other religions. Do you think you can do that?

 

[The Baron]

By the same logic, the OT God isn't the same God as The Father Jesus worshipped.

Sure it is. In the Old Testament we see God the Father being introduced right at the very beginning (Genesis 1:1). Then we see the Holy Spirit being introduced in Genesis 1:2). Later in the story we are introduced to a character called the Angel of the Lord who is both recognized as God and accepts worship as God who most scholars recognize as the preincarnate Christ.

Maybe Abraham's God isn't even Moses' God.

There is nothing in the Scriptures to indicate that to be so.

And aren't you believer?

Yes.

How does your theory about different gods hold up towards the claim that there is just one God?

Deuteronomy 6:4-15

“Hear, O Israel! The Lord is our God, the Lord is one!

Such is the concept of the Trinity. There is only one God and He exists in three persons: Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

 

[The Baron]

if there is only one god we must be believing in the same god


no they dont deny anything but quran claims the opposite and thats why they think jesus wasnt crucified

How is what you're saying any different from anything I said.

I think I must be missing your point.

 

[German guy]

What you've posted does not even address the points I made. But, you don't have to take my word for it...go ask a Muslim if what I'm saying is wrong.

Your point being that Christians and Muslims worship a different God?

When you are a believer in either religion, you will agree that there is only one God. There are no different gods besides God. Hence, Muslims cannot worship a different god, because different gods do not exist. At worst, you can argue that they are worshipping the same God in a wrong manner.

When you are an atheist who believes gods don't exist except in the imagination of the religious, you might well say different religions worship different gods, as the attributes and myths each religion attaches to God, and the religious practizes differ. But my guess is that you aren't an atheist.

Islam explicitly refers back to Judaism and Christianity. The OT prophets including Abraham and Moses, as well as Jesus, are mentioned in Quran and honored by Muslims as divine prophets in a long line that ends with Muhammed. The difference to Christianity being that Muslims don't view Jesus as "son of God", but as a mere prophet, and add Mohammed as "seal of the prophets". Islam obviously stems from the same religious tradition as Judaism and Christianity.

Even the Pope (I think it was Benedict XVI) acknowledged Mohammed as a man who advanced the faith in the one and only God, although he said he made the mistake of going back behind Jesus Christ and his sacrifice, which maybe puts him on the same level as some of the OT prophets.

 

[The Baron]

Do you want me to go point by ponit? I can if you'd like.

Go through what point-by-point?

 

[Medusa]

What you've posted does not even address the points I made. But, you don't have to take my word for it...go ask a Muslim if what I'm saying is wrong.

you can ask me too

 

[Manc Skipper]

What you've posted does not even address the points I made. But, you don't have to take my word for it...go ask a Muslim if what I'm saying is wrong.

Other than an unreasoning hatred for one of the three main Abrahamic religions, the only point you made was to deny that fact in the face of the overwhelming evidence. This is by definition a "faith" position, but it's still false.

 

[German guy]

Sure it is. In the Old Testament we see God the Father being introduced right at the very beginning (Genesis 1:1). Then we see the Holy Spirit being introduced in Genesis 1:2). Later in the story we are introduced to a character called the Angel of the Lord who is both recognized as God and accepts worship as God who most scholars recognize as the preincarnate Christ.

This distinction was not made before NT times. Judaism does not know trinity, although the Pentateuch is their primary holy scripture.

Nowhere does the OT scripture, not even the Gospels explicitly state that God is not one and entirely transcendent, despite mentions of the Holy Spirit and Jesus' role as savior. That concept was made up by Paul and later developed by early Christian theologicians.

Now I am not trying to argue that concept is necessarily wrong, I'm just pointing out that trinity is a particularly Christian belief. The Jews, who consider the OT holy, don't believe in it.

There is nothing in the Scriptures to indicate that to be so.

But God commanded different things and taught different teachings to Abraham and Moses. Just like God taught different teachings to Jesus and Mohammed.

Look, I'm not trying to prove you wrong here, I just want to encourage you to have an open mind to understand believers of different religions better.

Deuteronomy 6:4-15

“Hear, O Israel! The Lord is our God, the Lord is one!

Such is the concept of the Trinity. There is only one God and He exists in three persons: Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

This quote couldn't be a more strict and explicit statement against trinity, couldn't it? "The Lord is one." Not three!

 

[DDD]

Yes Baron, you called?

:lol:

 

[The Baron]

Your point being that Christians and Muslims worship a different God?

Yes.

When you are a believer in either religion, you will agree that there is only one God. There are no different gods besides God. Hence, Muslims cannot worship a different god, because different gods do not exist. At worst, you can argue that they are worshipping the same God in a wrong manner.

Absolutely not. It is correct to say that what we worship are two different Gods. You are correct to say that they may have the same origin but once Muhammad invented Islam and Allah (a moon god) it took a path so divergent as to correctly state that the two religions worship different Gods.

When you are an atheist who believes gods don't exist except in the imagination of the religious, you might well say different religions worship different gods, as the attributes and myths each religion attaches to God, and the religious practizes differ. But my guess is that you aren't an atheist.

Your premise is faulty. You do not have to be an atheist to recognize that “different religions worship different gods, as the attributes and myths each religion attaches to God, and the religious practizes differ.”

And, no, for the record I am not an atheist. I am a Bible believing, evangelical, non-denominational Christian.

Islam explicitly refers back to Judaism and Christianity.

And Judaism and Christianity never refer back to Islam as Islam was not invented until 600 years after Christ.

The OT prophets including Abraham and Moses, as well as Jesus, are mentioned in Quran and honored by Muslims as divine prophets in a long line.

1. Jesus was not mentioned in the Old Testament.

2. You are correct to say that Jesus is recognized as a prophet in Islam, whereas, in Christianity Jesus Christ is recognized as God. Muslims reject this Christian teaching. As such, we cannot be worshipping the same God.

The difference to Christianity being that Muslims don't view Jesus as "son of God", but as a mere prophet, and add Mohammed as "seal of the prophets". Islam obviously stems from the same religious tradition as Judaism and Christianity.

See above.

Even the Pope (I think it was Benedict XVI) acknowledged Mohammed as a man who advanced the faith in the one and only God, although he said he made the mistake of going back behind Jesus Christ and his sacrifice, which maybe puts him on the same level as some of the OT prophets.

Whaddaya know! Even the Pope can get it wrong.

 

[The Baron]

you can ask me too

Ask you what?

 

[The Baron]

Other than an unreasoning hatred for one of the three main Abrahamic religions, the only point you made was to deny that fact in the face of the overwhelming evidence. This is by definition a "faith" position, but it's still false.

Fine. How is it false? Please be specific.

 

[German guy]

Yes.



Absolutely not. It is correct to say that what we worship are two different Gods. You are correct to say that they may have the same origin but once Muhammad invented Islam and Allah (a moon god) it took a path so divergent as to correctly state that the two religions worship different Gods.



Your premise is faulty. You do not have to be an atheist to recognize that “different religions worship different gods, as the attributes and myths each religion attaches to God, and the religious practizes differ.”

And, no, for the record I am not an atheist. I am a Bible believing, evangelical, non-denominational Christian.



And Judaism and Christianity never refer back to Islam as Islam was not invented until 600 years after Christ.



1. Jesus was not mentioned in the Old Testament.

2. You are correct to say that Jesus is recognized as a prophet in Islam, whereas, in Christianity Jesus Christ is recognized as God. Muslims reject this Christian teaching. As such, we cannot be worshipping the same God.




See above.



Whaddaya know! Even the Pope can get it wrong.

Okay, so how can Muslims worship a different God than Christians? That implies that there are gods besides God. That is a polytheist belief.

How can you reconcile this belief in different gods with your claim of being a Bible believing evangelical Christian?

 

[German guy]

Ask you what?

Medusa is Muslim, and she disagrees with you (unlike you suggested by saying "ask a Muslim").

 

[Ben K.]

The Baron is right. They are two different Gods. Whether or not one accepts Jesus is God personified, that's a dealbreaker. Either one is right or they're both wrong, there is no both are right.

From a Christian perspective, Jews believed in the same God until they denied Jesus was the Messiah. There they part ways. Them believing in the same God ended around 2000 years ago. And it's reciprocal.

 

[The Baron]

This distinction was not made before NT times. Judaism does not know trinity, although the Pentateuch is their primary holy scripture.

Yet the three persons of the Trinity are recognized even in the Pentateuch.

Nowhere does the OT scripture, not even the Gospels explicitly state that God is not one and entirely transcendent, despite mentions of the Holy Spirit and Jesus' role as savior. That concept was made up by Paul and later developed by early Christian theologicians.

Yet we see the Holy Spirit mentioned right in verse 2 of Genesis 1 (that would be the very beginning!). Next, find yourself an on-line Bible and do a search for “Angel of the Lord”. Read through those verses and note how this character is both recognized and worshipped as God.

You shouldn’t have any problem recognizing your error here.

Now I am not trying to argue that concept is necessarily wrong, I'm just pointing out that trinity is a particularly Christian belief. The Jews, who consider the OT holy, don't believe in it.

Honestly, I’m not sure what the Jews believe with respect to the teachings of the Holy Spirit and Angel of the Lord in the Old Testament. It would be interesting to have someone of the Jewish faith give their opinion here.

But, yes, I do accept that the idea that a “Trinity” is uniquely Christian.

But God commanded different things and taught different teachings to Abraham and Moses. Just like God taught different teachings to Jesus and Mohammed.

You may say that God “taught different teachings” to Abraham and Moses but what God taught to Moses built on what had already been established by what God did through Abraham. It never contradicted it.

However, the contradictions between the beliefs established by Jesus and Mohammed are so contradictory as to be irreconcilable. To say these beliefs represent the same God is simply laughable.

Look, I'm not trying to prove you wrong here, I just want to encourage you to have an open mind to understand believers of different religions better.

As I should have established by now, I am certainly aware of the differences in other religions to certainly be able to point them out and comment on them. Obviously, I am not “close minded” as I have been able to do as I have claimed.

There are differences between religions. They are not all the same and they are not all equal. Any religion that calls for the systematic killing of anyone who does not belong to their religion simply does not have a belief system equal to mine.

This quote couldn't be a more strict and explicit statement against trinity, couldn't it? "The Lord is one." Not three!

Not at all, in fact, it supports the notion of the Trinity. If there were not three persons in the God-head as the concept of the “Trinity” explains then what is the need for proclaiming that the Lord God is one?

 

[The Baron]

you can ask me too

Ask you what?

Medusa is Muslim, and she disagrees with you (unlike you suggested by saying "ask a Muslim").

Geeeezzz!!! I had no idea!

Okay. Now I get it!

Yes, mam, Miss Medusa I would be very interested in hearing your opinion on this and even on the OP. Go ahead, please.

Yes Baron, you called? :lol:

I dunno. Muslim?

 

[German guy]

Yet the three persons of the Trinity are recognized even in the Pentateuch.

You pointed out yourself that Jesus was not mentioned in the OT, including the Pentateuch. "The Messiah" was mentioned, but not as "son of God". So one of the three elements of trinity is absent in the OT already.

As for the Holy Spirit, yes, it is mentioned, but as Jews don't believe in trinity (or "duality"), the Holy Spirit is obviously not recognized as one element of God (but maybe just a "tool" of God, like sunbeams originate from the sun but *aren't* the sun).

Honestly, I’m not sure what the Jews believe with respect to the teachings of the Holy Spirit and Angel of the Lord in the Old Testament. It would be interesting to have someone of the Jewish faith give their opinion here.

Seconded! I'd like to learn more from a Jewish believer.

But, yes, I do accept that the idea that a “Trinity” is uniquely Christian.

Good.

You may say that God “taught different teachings” to Abraham and Moses but what God taught to Moses built on what had already been established by what God did through Abraham. It never contradicted it.

However, the contradictions between the beliefs established by Jesus and Mohammed are so contradictory as to be irreconcilable. To say these beliefs represent the same God is simply laughable.

You did not answer my question: When Christians and Muslims (and Jews) worship different gods, does that not contradict the Christian claim that there is only ONE God?

I understand where you are coming from, regarding contradictions, and while I don't believe they are irreconcilable, that debate would go too far off topic. If you are interested to debate that, we can do that in another thread. Anyway, I acknowledge that your position is coherent and probably shared by a majority of Christians (except for the claim that there are other gods besides God).

As I should have established by now, I am certainly aware of the differences in other religions to certainly be able to point them out and comment on them. Obviously, I am not “close minded” as I have been able to do as I have claimed.

Yes, I am glad that you have put aside the polemics.

There are differences between religions. They are not all the same and they are not all equal. Any religion that calls for the systematic killing of anyone who does not belong to their religion simply does not have a belief system equal to mine.

There is no major religion that demands that. Islam certainly does not.

Not at all, in fact, it supports the notion of the Trinity. If there were not three persons in the God-head as the concept of the “Trinity” explains then what is the need for proclaiming that the Lord God is one?

Wheeeeee, now that is a creative answer! LOL

You used the exact, obvious meaning of that verse to claim it actually says the exact opposite of what it says. You got balls.

 

[DDD]

I dunno. Muslim?

Your title seemed to me like you were calling somebody?

No, I am not religious at all. My country though is categorized as "Muslim" in a nominal scale. We are not at an ordinal scale of religious faith for we would probably score the last