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The Irrelevance of Military Victory

danarhea

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Dr. Ron Paul accuses the Bush administration of using the troop surge in Iraq to distract Americans from his real agenda, starting a war with Iran. And, of course, Dr. Paul makes a good case about the irrelevance of the possibility of a military victory in Iraq. That animal just does not exist.

Finally, word down here in Southeast Texas is that Ron Paul might run for president. I hope he does. He would get my vote in a New York minute.

Article is here.
 
I've been saying for a while now that the military victory has come and gone, and we've been waiting for the political victory ever since. The military has done their job, we just need Bush and the other politicians to do theirs. (not holding my breath either)
 
Nam had a 10:1 ratio, for every 10 VC killed--we lost one. I would guess that we actually killed more VC than that ratio--but that ratio didn't give us a victory; yes we can talk about politics on that matter and we can talk about politics on the Iraq war as well as the ratio--on the battlefield the US cannot lose; the only problem is with Iraq where is the battlefield? We can kill insurgents with a very high ratio but where does that lead? They always recruit and are replaced with more.
 
Dr. Ron Paul accuses the Bush administration of using the troop surge in Iraq to distract Americans from his real agenda, starting a war with Iran. And, of course, Dr. Paul makes a good case about the irrelevance of the possibility of a military victory in Iraq. That animal just does not exist.

Ron Paul is wrong. danarhea is wrong.

The truth is that there can be no political solution until one of the Iraqi factions establishes a clear and unequivocal military dominance in Iraq generally and in Baghdad in particular. Neither Sunni nor Shiite politicians will reach compromises if they are certain to be murdered by the militias of extremists on their own side. Throughout the entire history of the ME, there has never been a political solution that was not based on one party's dominant military strength. Strength, not weakness, leads to compromise, both in the ability to offer and the willingness to accept. Peace and stability in Iraq specifically and the ME in general require both a military and a political solution - but the political rests on the military rather than vice versa.

There are only three politico-military forces that can plausibly win the kind of military victory that can shape the political future of Iraq. The first is a "national unity" Iraqi government supported by the US and the coalition. This status-quo-but-improved force remains by far the strongest in Iraq and if the US remains in Iraq, it could not possibly be defeated by either of the other two forces. The political will to remain in Iraq, however, remains a central point of political contention in the US - as foreseen and relied upon by bin Laden and Zawahiri et al.

The second force, the Shiite militias, would be the heavy favorites to come out on top from the brutal civil war sure to follow a US withdrawal. Not only are they significantly more numerous, they have the backing of the current Iraq government and importantly, heavy backing from their heavily Shia Iranian neighbor. Iran's interests would be furthered considerably by having a Shia state as a buffer between themselves and Sunni Saudi. Further, because the Shiites would be victorious due to their militias rather than the ballot box, Iraq might well end up with a Shiite dictatorship rather than a representative government weighted toward the majority Shiite interests as now.

The third force, the Sunni militias, have no realistic prospect of victory. Some of the neighboring Sunni regimes might possibly intervene if the Sunni population were to subjected to ethnic cleansing (i..e, being massacred by the Shiite majority). This is an outcome equally unwelcome as it would further plunge the region into chaos.

Ron Paul is right about one aspect: this is not, and never has been, solely about Iraq. Iran has a huge interest in the outcome, as do SA, Jordan, Egypt and all of the other countries in the ME.
 
Dr. Ron Paul accuses the Bush administration of using the troop surge in Iraq to distract Americans from his real agenda, starting a war with Iran.
Interesting observation, given that the anti-war folks have been telling us that the fact that we are in Iraq means we can't go to war with Iran.

What's even more interesting is that every time I see this, I ask why it is that us having ~180,000 troops, complete with their logistical tails already in place, right next to Iran is a bad thing when considering going to war with Iran.

It seems Dr. Paul is more in agreement with me than the anti-war left who tell us that becausw we're in Iraq, we can't deal with Iran militarily.
 
What's even more interesting is that every time I see this, I ask why it is that us having ~180,000 troops, complete with their logistical tails already in place, right next to Iran is a bad thing when considering going to war with Iran.
I mean if the troops were just sitting around in Iraq waiting for something to do, I'd see that you have a point. But, ISTM, that our men and women in Iraq are busy doing important things in Iraq - not just goofing off, prepped and waiting for orders.

The troops in Iraq are doing jobs in Iraq.
If we move them to Iran, they will no longer be in Iraq.
If they are no longer in Iraq, then they can no longer do the things they were doing in Iraq.

Can the folks in Iraq do their jobs in Iraq while simultaneously performing new and different jobs in Iran?
Or, is removing the troops from Iraq before their jobs are done is an acceptable alternative?
Goobieman said:
It seems Dr. Paul is more in agreement with me than the anti-war left who tell us that becausw we're in Iraq, we can't deal with Iran militarily.
Are there any folks who know what they're talking about who say the same thing about how our extensive presence in Iraq has limited our ability to engage in an extensive presence in another country? Maybe career military professionals? Or is this case made solely by hippies and peaceniks?
 
I mean if the troops were just sitting around in Iraq waiting for something to do, I'd see that you have a point. But, ISTM, that our men and women in Iraq are busy doing important things in Iraq - not just goofing off, prepped and waiting for orders.

The troops in Iraq are doing jobs in Iraq.
If we move them to Iran, they will no longer be in Iraq.
If they are no longer in Iraq, then they can no longer do the things they were doing in Iraq.

All of this is correct -- but only because it is based on a single assumption:
That to deal with Iran through military means we need to invade Iran like we did Iraq.

That assumption isn't sound.
 
All of this is correct -- but only because it is based on a single assumption:
That to deal with Iran through military means we need to invade Iran like we did Iraq.

That assumption isn't sound.
If we don't need the troops to deal with Iran, what does it matter that they're right next door?
 
If we don't need the troops to deal with Iran, what does it matter that they're right next door?

Not at all sure how this addresses what I said.

We dont necessarily have to deal with Iran in the way we dealt with Iraq.
Given that, the "limitations" on our forces in Iraq noted here and elsewhere don't necessarily apply.
 
What's even more interesting is that every time I see this, I ask why it is that us having ~180,000 troops, complete with their logistical tails already in place, right next to Iran is a bad thing when considering going to war with Iran.
Either it means that we have troops tied up doing other things or(/and) it means that we have troops in harm's way.

If they were not tied up w/ their duties in Iraq, they would be free to help us "go to war with Iran."
If they are not necessary to go "to war with Iran," they're in harm's way by being w/in Iran's reach instead of being beyond Iran's grasp.
 
Either it means that we have troops tied up doing other things or(/and) it means that we have troops in harm's way.
If they were not tied up w/ their duties in Iraq, they would be free to help us "go to war with Iran."
If they are not necessary to go "to war with Iran," they're in harm's way by being w/in Iran's reach instead of being beyond Iran's grasp.
Doesn't this depend entrely on what "going to war with Iran" means?

This is the part that you dont seem to get -- nothing says that we have to "go to war with Iran" in the same way we went to war in Iraq.
 
Doesn't this depend entrely on what "going to war with Iran" means?
This is the part that you dont seem to get -- nothing says that we have to "go to war with Iran" in the same way we went to war in Iraq.
Okay, (and again) so we go to war in a different way that doesn't involve the "~180,000 troops, complete with their logistical tails already in place."

But, since these uninvolved folks are over there, they're exposed. That's another bad thing.
 
Okay, (and again) so we go to war in a different way that doesn't involve the "~180,000 troops, complete with their logistical tails already in place."

Well, right.
If what we do in Iran only requires a few thousand troops, airpower and logistical support in a relatively short-term campaign, we're all set. The argument that we can't do -anything- to Iran because we're in Iraq presumes that we're going to invade Iran like we invaded Iraq -- and that's not in any way necessarily so.

And so, there's no way to argue that our guys being there is necessarily a detriment to taking on Iran.
 
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