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The holy land

ghost

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I do not believe this should go into the war on terror forum. Simply because to me it is more of a religious debate.
Since Isreal has been in exsistance there have been terrorist bombing the small country time and time again. Why? Not because the country will meet there demands or that the country will give them something. But simply because they want to eraticate the 'Jews' and 'christians'. But this was evident long before Isreal was even a country. Muslims in ancient would hunt christians down and kill them just for the fun of it.
Where did this all start hmm? Simply because Jeruselem is 'Muslim' holy city too? For some reason I find this very hard to believe. I mean, If the muslim wanted such a holy place, Grand enough for there 'God'. They would biuld something much more beutifule then Jeruselem. I think there hate is much deeper then that. But why?
Since 'Yaza arafat' Has died bombing and terrorist attacks slowed down by a long shot. Is it because there leaders influence has suddenly fallen? And not terrorist have diverted there plans to other countrys. Such as 'egypt' and 'England'.
Lets face it, the only way muslim will ever take over Isreal. Is if all nations have been destroyed. America will never let anything happen to there allia. And England will probly alway support in some way. And if crimes are going on against the rites of people. The U.N. will always step in.
But simply my conclusion is, why do the muslims think that spreading 'Jihad'. Will solve anything? It hasnt yet, it probly never will. They are not gaining people to there religio. There are simply gaining more hate for themselves. Now it is not just america who has felt there anger. It is England as well. How many bombings will it take before we finally say. Thats enough, no more 'Jihads'. And unite and finally put an end to these terrorist attacks. Its not just hurting republicans or democrats. Because lets face our economys down because of everyones stupidy.
I mean both sides arent right. We have war mongers and whiney pretty boys. We have them who want to make a stand and them who want to save money. Why couldnt everyone just unite to save money and save lifes.
But no we are to big for this arent we. We cant just give in and help one another. Its not our political stance!
You wanna know why 911 happened. Because we did not stand united. We ever have until something happens to us. We let things go and go till a hundred million people die and then its time to bring out the guns ladys and gentlemen. And I for one am fed up with it. Im sick of hearing about people dieing, Im sick of hearing there is a holy war. Im sicking of hearing bush is an idiot. Im sick of hearing clinton will save us all. Because you know. Either can save us now. Not until all america is one again.
This is my religion people, the religion that we stay alive by banding together. Nomatter what demonation you are. Christian, catholic, republican or democrat. White, black, or asain. Because its happening to all of us. Every last one of us are dieing slower an slower everyday. And you know what, by doing nothing we letting them win. We giving them what they want.
Jesus man, wake up smell the news paper! People die more and more everyday because of some terrorist attack. It never sais terrorist died today! Unless there suicide bombers! They are making hell on earth here. You cant even walk out of your house Isreal without saying a prayer you wont get shot. American soldier are over in Iraq and afghanistan dieing. And what do we do? We condem them, we say there cause for dieing is for nothing. I dont see any politcal big wig son of a whore over there in a big sand box. for fear that he would his manicure' messes up.
And Liberal say we are spending to much money on this war. Well then tell us how to not spend so much money. Or dont you know? Maybe its just you dont want to spend a helping hand because you wanna see your enemy go down with the ship.
And republicans spend to much money, what are thinking! two wars at once? And now your thinking on a third one? Bush wasnt built in a day! Atleast I think.
I know I know this really shouldnt be put into religion. But thats where I thought it belonged. I hope this will lead, a strong debate.
::ding, ding:: Let round one begin.
 

Arch Enemy

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Jerusalem being the Muslim Holy Land? Barely my dear patsy!

If you even did a simple Google search you'd figure out that Jerusalem isn't the Muslim Holy City, but Mecca is. The Muslims don't turn towards Jerusalem during morning prayers. If I remember correctly, the Muslims, led by Saladin, grouped a Kurdish-Muslim Invasion force in order to cause a big blow the Muslims who have been stripped of dignity, pride, and (in some cases) life. I recommend watching "Kingdom of Heaven" a brilliant movie, a very un-biased movie.

Spell Check <3 Try it out.
 

cnredd

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Arch Enemy said:
Jerusalem being the Muslim Holy Land? Barely my dear patsy!

If you even did a simple Google search you'd figure out that Jerusalem isn't the Muslim Holy City, but Mecca is. The Muslims don't turn towards Jerusalem during morning prayers. If I remember correctly, the Muslims, led by Saladin, grouped a Kurdish-Muslim Invasion force in order to cause a big blow the Muslims who have been stripped of dignity, pride, and (in some cases) life. I recommend watching "Kingdom of Heaven" a brilliant movie, a very un-biased movie.

Spell Check <3 Try it out.
Jerusalem IS a Muslim holy land...just not the THEE big one...It's number three, after Mecca and Medina...
 

ghost

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Arch Enemy said:
Jerusalem being the Muslim Holy Land? Barely my dear patsy!

If you even did a simple Google search you'd figure out that Jerusalem isn't the Muslim Holy City, but Mecca is. The Muslims don't turn towards Jerusalem during morning prayers. If I remember correctly, the Muslims, led by Saladin, grouped a Kurdish-Muslim Invasion force in order to cause a big blow the Muslims who have been stripped of dignity, pride, and (in some cases) life. I recommend watching "Kingdom of Heaven" a brilliant movie, a very un-biased movie.

Spell Check <3 Try it out.
Yes, but did kingdom of heaven tell you muslim tradition. It is said in jeruselem, mohammed there great prophet descended into heaven to allah. Wich makes it one big holy city. Not the biggest like mecca. Only because that is where Mahammeds preachings were taught. But yet still a big holy city.
So do you find all of you info off movies there crumpit?
 

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The conflict between Israel and Palestine is more political than religious and the Palestinians are just as much if not more the victims in this situation.
 

ghost

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N.Lmn said:
The conflict between Israel and Palestine is more political than religious and the Palestinians are just as much if not more the victims in this situation.
Yes, you are right they are as much of victims as anyone else. But what I mean all together is, there is no resolve. None, there will never be a resolve, never. The fighting will go and on till one of the opposing sides it eraticated. And this in itself is just not right. And we the world, stand by and watch it happen. And wonder why it is going on.
America itself is an allia to Isreal, we alway have been. And we wonder why we got bombed? We help country that we have no buissness helping. But if we dont, the world looks at us as barbaric and grotesque because we let them die. But did the world ever help them? No!
Did france help Iraq at all? No, but they put us down for giving them freedom. If france was under controll of a horrible dictator, they would want us to help them! The world only wants what you can give to them.
Lets face it, the only reason france didnt want us going into Iraq was because allot of there oil was coming out of there.
 

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ghost said:
Yes, but did kingdom of heaven tell you muslim tradition. It is said in jeruselem, mohammed there great prophet descended into heaven to allah. Wich makes it one big holy city. Not the biggest like mecca. Only because that is where Mahammeds preachings were taught. But yet still a big holy city.
So do you find all of you info off movies there crumpit?
"Crumpit" if that was only a word I might be a bit offended. Actually, no, I don't find all my info off of movies...

Obviously you don't read at all:
1) Mohammed cannot "descend" into "heaven" to Allah... You were looking for "ascend".
2)
The Muslim Claim to Jerusalem; [url said:
http://www.danielpipes.org/article/84][/url] What about Muslims? Where does Jerusalem fit in Islam and Muslim history? It is not the place to which they pray, is not once mentioned by name in prayers, and it is connected to no mundane events in Muhammad's life. The city never served as capital of a sovereign Muslim state, and it never became a cultural or scholarly center. Little of political import by Muslims was initiated there
You're wrong, "Kingdom of Heaven" told me of some Muslim Traditions. I never said that "Kingdom of Heaven is such a great spiritual movie, it shows you have the Muslims use their religion in their daily lives", I was meaning the showing of the Crusades and of Saladin. Though some is "Hollywoodized" most of it is true to history.

Maybe you should really think about using "Spell Check", or actually reviewing your post before you submit it.... it works wonders.
 

PolitikalDissident

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ghost said:
Yes, you are right they are as much of victims as anyone else. But what I mean all together is, there is no resolve. None, there will never be a resolve, never. The fighting will go and on till one of the opposing sides it eraticated. And this in itself is just not right. And we the world, stand by and watch it happen. And wonder why it is going on.
America itself is an allia to Isreal, we alway have been. And we wonder why we got bombed? We help country that we have no buissness helping. But if we dont, the world looks at us as barbaric and grotesque because we let them die. But did the world ever help them? No!
Did france help Iraq at all? No, but they put us down for giving them freedom. If france was under controll of a horrible dictator, they would want us to help them! The world only wants what you can give to them.
Lets face it, the only reason france didnt want us going into Iraq was because allot of there oil was coming out of there.
What makes you think that the establishment of an independent Palestinian state would not resolve this conflict? After all, the creation of Israel by the UN, land that previously had belonged to the Palestinians, was what initially began the conflict. The muslims are not hostile towards the Israelis because of the fact that they're jewish, but because their land was taken from them (land that had always historically been muslim territory) and used to create a jewish state.

America was not attacked simply because of their alliance with Israel. The overwhelming majority of suicide terrorist acts are carried out in hopes of achieving political objectives, most often the expulsion of foreign armies of occupation. Muslims have long opposed the presence of American forces in Persian Gulf states (Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, etc.). This was the most important factor spawning the 9/11 attacks. Also, the sustained presence of American and, now, other western forces in Muslim countries, such as Iraq, is likely to increase the chances of another 9/11 type attack on the US.

France did not support our war in Iraq simply because it was unjustified. In no way was Iraq connected with Al-Qaeda or the War on Terror. Yes, Saddam was a ruthless dictator, but he possessed no WMDs, which were the primary concern of the Bush Administration (so they say...).
 

ghost

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PolitikalDissident said:
What makes you think that the establishment of an independent Palestinian state would not resolve this conflict? After all, the creation of Israel by the UN, land that previously had belonged to the Palestinians, was what initially began the conflict. The muslims are not hostile towards the Israelis because of the fact that they're jewish, but because their land was taken from them (land that had always historically been muslim territory) and used to create a jewish state.

America was not attacked simply because of their alliance with Israel. The overwhelming majority of suicide terrorist acts are carried out in hopes of achieving political objectives, most often the expulsion of foreign armies of occupation. Muslims have long opposed the presence of American forces in Persian Gulf states (Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, etc.). This was the most important factor spawning the 9/11 attacks. Also, the sustained presence of American and, now, other western forces in Muslim countries, such as Iraq, is likely to increase the chances of another 9/11 type attack on the US.

France did not support our war in Iraq simply because it was unjustified. In no way was Iraq connected with Al-Qaeda or the War on Terror. Yes, Saddam was a ruthless dictator, but he possessed no WMDs, which were the primary concern of the Bush Administration (so they say...).
What were the terrorist objectives? What did they want hmm? Where we in there lands at the time?
And no we did not find and wmds to date. But we knew he had chemicals to do warefare. Where did he get them hmm? I mean the whole country is one big sandbox it would be easy to hide. I mean we still havent found osama benladin but hes still out there. Just because we cant find him doesnt mean he doesnt exsist.
But really what were the political objectives in the 9/11 attacks. Please tell me? I mean if it was to move forces out of there country they really did a bad job because it back fired majorly.
 

ghost

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Arch Enemy said:
"Crumpit" if that was only a word I might be a bit offended. Actually, no, I don't find all my info off of movies...

Obviously you don't read at all:
1) Mohammed cannot "descend" into "heaven" to Allah... You were looking for "ascend".
2)

You're wrong, "Kingdom of Heaven" told me of some Muslim Traditions. I never said that "Kingdom of Heaven is such a great spiritual movie, it shows you have the Muslims use their religion in their daily lives", I was meaning the showing of the Crusades and of Saladin. Though some is "Hollywoodized" most of it is true to history.

Maybe you should really think about using "Spell Check", or actually reviewing your post before you submit it.... it works wonders.
Sorry bro, I dont usually give a crap about spelling when Im trying to debate. But if it will please you from not on I will try to use one.
Anyway, crumpit is a cake of a sort. Not ment to make you offended I just couldnt think of anything else to say. Please dont have any hard feelings towards me for it.
Wow, spellcheck does do wonders.
 

Arch Enemy

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Yeah no problem dude, it's nothing to sweat about.

I just think it makes people buy your stories better if you spell the names and words correctly. I went a bit personal because I thought you calling me "crumpit" was personal, so I fought fire with fire (so to speak).
 

PolitikalDissident

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ghost said:
What were the terrorist objectives? What did they want hmm? Where we in there lands at the time?
And no we did not find and wmds to date. But we knew he had chemicals to do warefare. Where did he get them hmm? I mean the whole country is one big sandbox it would be easy to hide. I mean we still havent found osama benladin but hes still out there. Just because we cant find him doesnt mean he doesnt exsist.
But really what were the political objectives in the 9/11 attacks. Please tell me? I mean if it was to move forces out of there country they really did a bad job because it back fired majorly.
Umm...yeah, we were in their lands at the time....coulda sworn I had specifically cited US forces in Saudi Arabia and Kuwait...also, the United States has ground forces stationed in Turkey, the United Arab Emirates, Oman, Qatar, Bahrain and onboard amphibious vessels in the Persian Gulf.

As for the chemical weapons, the United States aided Hussein in developing its chemical, biological and nuclear weapons programs during the Iran-Iraq War (1980-1988) and turned a blind eye when chemical weapons were used by Saddam.

IMO, the terrorists' attacks have not backfired. America is digging its own grave by ignorantly believing that it can successfully win a global war on terror. American occupation of foreign lands to hunt down terrorists will undoubtedly spawn anti-American sentiment among the local population, which in turn will spawn more and more terrorist attacks against the United States...much like what is happening in Iraq. The United States does not have the resources or international support to repel and fight terrorism on a global scale for a prolonged period of time. The world will only put up with it's warmongering for so long.
 

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PolitikalDissident said:
Umm...yeah, we were in their lands at the time....coulda sworn I had specifically cited US forces in Saudi Arabia and Kuwait...also, the United States has ground forces stationed in Turkey, the United Arab Emirates, Oman, Qatar, Bahrain and onboard amphibious vessels in the Persian Gulf.

As for the chemical weapons, the United States aided Hussein in developing its chemical, biological and nuclear weapons programs during the Iran-Iraq War (1980-1988) and turned a blind eye when chemical weapons were used by Saddam.

IMO, the terrorists' attacks have not backfired. America is digging its own grave by ignorantly believing that it can successfully win a global war on terror. American occupation of foreign lands to hunt down terrorists will undoubtedly spawn anti-American sentiment among the local population, which in turn will spawn more and more terrorist attacks against the United States...much like what is happening in Iraq. The United States does not have the resources or international support to repel and fight terrorism on a global scale for a prolonged period of time. The world will only put up with it's warmongering for so long.
You know your right in a way, they arent loosing. Im gonna say something my girlfriend told me and I wanna see what you think on it. Instead of terrorist trying to take out all nations. I think they are trying to set us up against each other. Think about it, they have us believing that Russia sold Iran nuclear weapons. I dont think its president bush's falt for seeing weapons of mass destruction. I think there doing the same thing they did in Iraq, there showing us weapons then moving them to a different country to make america go after them. And then make the world hate america even more.
And I think most people are just to blind to see it. I think president bush is to blind to see it as well. I think he thinks by going to war with them hes doing the comon good. But really he is setting us up for an attack! and he doesnt even know ! I mean it could be, couldnt it?
Maybe the terrists just want us to think there dumb, and they cant hide there weapons.
 

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Arch Enemy said:
Yeah no problem dude, it's nothing to sweat about.

I just think it makes people buy your stories better if you spell the names and words correctly. I went a bit personal because I thought you calling me "crumpit" was personal, so I fought fire with fire (so to speak).
So you fought fire with fire hmm...I like that metallica song..
 

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ghost said:
You know your right in a way, they arent loosing. Im gonna say something my girlfriend told me and I wanna see what you think on it. Instead of terrorist trying to take out all nations. I think they are trying to set us up against each other. Think about it, they have us believing that Russia sold Iran nuclear weapons. I dont think its president bush's falt for seeing weapons of mass destruction. I think there doing the same thing they did in Iraq, there showing us weapons then moving them to a different country to make america go after them. And then make the world hate america even more.
And I think most people are just to blind to see it. I think president bush is to blind to see it as well. I think he thinks by going to war with them hes doing the comon good. But really he is setting us up for an attack! and he doesnt even know ! I mean it could be, couldnt it?
Maybe the terrists just want us to think there dumb, and they cant hide there weapons.
You don't think it's Bush's fault, instead you pitty him? A mistake in any case is still a mistake, no matter how honest it is. The fact of the matter is he "lied" to the American public, slapped Europe's offer for help on this situation, and didn't even have a plan after that War. Yes, it might have been a mistake.. but that still doesn't change the fact that people are dying in that area and it's the fault of Bush. People don't ever realize that waging war puts all the casualties on your shoulders.

You're saying that the main objective of the Terrorists is to kill as many innocent people as possible? I disagree, I don't think the Terrorists are like that, they kill because that gives them power, it feeds their greedy soul. Terrorists aren't as stupid as you and I may think, like most people, they know for a fact they need a safe-haven they wouldn't cause wars between two nations unless it was absolutely needed. Granted that a form of terrorism started World War I.
 

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ghost said:
So you fought fire with fire hmm...I like that metallica song..

Great song, I prefer "Motorbreath" by Metallica.
 

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Arch Enemy said:
You don't think it's Bush's fault, instead you pitty him? A mistake in any case is still a mistake, no matter how honest it is. The fact of the matter is he "lied" to the American public, slapped Europe's offer for help on this situation, and didn't even have a plan after that War. Yes, it might have been a mistake.. but that still doesn't change the fact that people are dying in that area and it's the fault of Bush. People don't ever realize that waging war puts all the casualties on your shoulders.

You're saying that the main objective of the Terrorists is to kill as many innocent people as possible? I disagree, I don't think the Terrorists are like that, they kill because that gives them power, it feeds their greedy soul. Terrorists aren't as stupid as you and I may think, like most people, they know for a fact they need a safe-haven they wouldn't cause wars between two nations unless it was absolutely needed. Granted that a form of terrorism started World War I.
Now, I dont pitty him, but I dont think its all his fault. But anyway, I dont think these terrorist want to minimize the casualty issue. If so then 1,000 soldier dead isnt that much. I think they will stop at nothing to get there point across to us. May I say even destroy us. Because I mean we lost so many people in 9/11 alone and they didnt care how many died. They knew that that many were going to die. It was there goal to get that many.
 

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ghost said:
Now, I dont pitty him, but I dont think its all his fault. But anyway, I dont think these terrorist want to minimize the casualty issue. If so then 1,000 soldier dead isnt that much. I think they will stop at nothing to get there point across to us. May I say even destroy us. Because I mean we lost so many people in 9/11 alone and they didnt care how many died. They knew that that many were going to die. It was there goal to get that many.
Are you saying that because Terrorists don't care how many innocent people they kill it is ok for us to not care how many people (non-terrorists) we kill in going after them? How do you work that out?
 

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Dezaad said:
Are you saying that because Terrorists don't care how many innocent people they kill it is ok for us to not care how many people (non-terrorists) we kill in going after them? How do you work that out?
Well its kind of hard, when the majority of these terrist are muslims. I mean not saying everyone muslim is a terrorist. But its sort of like a shot in the dark. But how are we to end terrorismt. If do not go after them?
Are we to just let them keep doing what they are doing? In every war inoccents have been killed. Its nothing new, even when we fought for a dependence. We werent gentlemen about it, we did what had to be done.
 

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Don't forget that Christians threw the first punch.


ghost said:
Now, I dont pitty him, but I dont think its all his fault. But anyway, I dont think these terrorist want to minimize the casualty issue. If so then 1,000 soldier dead isnt that much. I think they will stop at nothing to get there point across to us. May I say even destroy us. Because I mean we lost so many people in 9/11 alone and they didnt care how many died. They knew that that many were going to die. It was there goal to get that many.
Like I said, I don't think the point of the terrorist plots is to increase how many people they kill, instead I believe it's how long they can stretch their grip. Fear works, people will give in to anything if someone can make them fear, to a certain point.
9/11 Was the reason why everybody started becoming more aware of Terrorism and learned the name "Osama Bin Laden" by heart. Al Quedia did many other terrorist attacks against America but none of them got as much hype.. so they had to go to the extreme. When one is pushed to a certain point and in a corner, then they'll strike out with a mixture of fear, rage, and hatred. This striking out by Osama Bin Laden was dubbed "9/11". How did he help spread his political influence, you ask? He knew that as soon as such a tragic event happened, the world's media will zero in on event, which they did, so he can, through the world's media, draw sympathizers to his cause and out-stretch his reign of terror. It's a brilliant trick on his part, he had to kill many people, but he got his objective complete.
 

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Arch Enemy said:
Don't forget that Christians threw the first punch.




Like I said, I don't think the point of the terrorist plots is to increase how many people they kill, instead I believe it's how long they can stretch their grip. Fear works, people will give in to anything if someone can make them fear, to a certain point.
9/11 Was the reason why everybody started becoming more aware of Terrorism and learned the name "Osama Bin Laden" by heart. Al Quedia did many other terrorist attacks against America but none of them got as much hype.. so they had to go to the extreme. When one is pushed to a certain point and in a corner, then they'll strike out with a mixture of fear, rage, and hatred. This striking out by Osama Bin Laden was dubbed "9/11". How did he help spread his political influence, you ask? He knew that as soon as such a tragic event happened, the world's media will zero in on event, which they did, so he can, through the world's media, draw sympathizers to his cause and out-stretch his reign of terror. It's a brilliant trick on his part, he had to kill many people, but he got his objective complete.
Well if people die, our objective will be complete as well will it not?
 

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ghost said:
Well its kind of hard, when the majority of these terrist are muslims. I mean not saying everyone muslim is a terrorist. But its sort of like a shot in the dark. But how are we to end terrorismt. If do not go after them?
Are we to just let them keep doing what they are doing? In every war inoccents have been killed.
Yes, it is like a shot in the dark, in some cases. I really do sympathize with that. Yet, If the Arabs brought this war to American land as a conventional war, I would insist that they try to 'be gentlemen'. I would not feel ok with my neighbor's kid getting blown to bits because of careless Arab bombing. And I wouldn't feel any different if the Arabs were 'justified' simply because Americans had been ungentlemanly.

I am simply applying the golden rule. Which is not "Do unto another as some third someone that they are related to has done unto you". Not even close.
 

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Dezaad said:
Yes, it is like a shot in the dark, in some cases. I really do sympathize with that. Yet, If the Arabs brought this war to American land as a conventional war, I would insist that they try to 'be gentlemen'. I would not feel ok with my neighbor's kid getting blown to bits because of careless Arab bombing. And I wouldn't feel any different if the Arabs were 'justified' simply because Americans had been ungentlemanly.

I am simply applying the golden rule. Which is not "Do unto another as some third someone that they are related to has done unto you". Not even close.
Well I dont believe you should call a country thats helping you get your freedom 'dogs' either. But they do that, and they should not blame us for being in there country. They should get mad at the terrorists that made us go into there country.
 

nkgupta80

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you see the logic in that, international criminals residing in a country caused us to bomb the **** out of it.
 
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