The Holocaust Was The Jews Fault

[vergiss]

Those links didn't just talk about the Warsaw Ghetto rebellion, you know. They also mentioned the Jewish undergroundmovement which saved thousands of Jews by helping them flee overseas, particularly to what is now Israel, and various other rebellions including when a group of female camp inmates blew up a crematorium.

 

[George_Washington]

Wow.

Robin and G>B, you guys sound really anti-semetic, I'm sorry.

Robin, your claim that the Jews who operated factories and such were just as guilty for the Holocaust as the men who perpetrated it, is erroneous. They were forced, like slaves, to act in such a manner. Were African Americans to blame for slavery because some of them were forced to scold and whip their fellow people on the cotton fields? They weren't to blame, to suggest they were is cruel and insensitive to the victims of the situation.

G>B, this statement:

"liberal-Jew-Media-laser guns"

...sounds like a direct insult to Tashah and Jewish people. She wasn't calling you a Nazi sympathizer or any of those things. She was just suggesting some good reading material on this subject and then you just seemed to fly off the handle at her. Are you a Muslim, G>B? I'm just wondering why you seem to have the views you have towards the Jewish people. Most of the people in the media and Hollywood are not Jewish. This is, unfortunately, a stereotype that the Jews have had to live with for so long. But even if the Jews did have a dominate presence in the media, so what? Would it be any worse if it was dominated by anglo-saxons?

Furthermore, it sounds like you waiver on your pacifistic views. On one hand you say that the Jews should have done nothing and then on the other, it seems you say that they weren't doing enough. I'm not sure exactly what you're trying to say. There were many people who tried to resist the Nazis, not just Jews. considering they were only 1% of the population, they were at a tremendous disadvantage in Germany. The ones who tried to resist the Nazis were either killed on the spot, tortured to death, or else publically humiliated. The SA would force Jews to clean public streets with their hands. I remember reading about one Jew in Munich who was forced to walk down the street wearing a sign that read, "I will never again complain about the Nazis," and other various things.

G>B, I don't think Gandhi was right in his philosophy on the world. I have never been a huge fan of his. Pacifism might work at times but then there are other times when military force is absolutely neccessary in order to fight for one's honor, family, and life.

 

[Gandhi>Bush]

Those links didn't just talk about the Warsaw Ghetto rebellion, you know. They also mentioned the Jewish undergroundmovement which saved thousands of Jews by helping them flee overseas, particularly to what is now Israel, and various other rebellions including when a group of female camp inmates blew up a crematorium.

I'm sorry, it just seems like waiting until you're insided the concentration camp might be a little too late.

 

[Gandhi>Bush]

Wow.

Robin and G>B, you guys sound really anti-semetic, I'm sorry.

No you're not.

G>B, this statement:

"liberal-Jew-Media-laser guns"

...sounds like a direct insult to Tashah and Jewish people.

I was just joking around with a common retarded stereotype, but what ever "tickles your pickle" as they say ("they" being my skinhead croquet team).

She wasn't calling you a Nazi sympathizer or any of those things. She was just suggesting some good reading material on this subject and then you just seemed to fly off the handle at her. Are you a Muslim, G>B? I'm just wondering why you seem to have the views you have towards the Jewish people. Most of the people in the media and Hollywood are not Jewish. This is, unfortunately, a stereotype that the Jews have had to live with for so long. But even if the Jews did have a dominate presence in the media, so what? Would it be any worse if it was dominated by anglo-saxons?

She found truth in my sarcastic statment of Nazi sympathising, and anti-semitism( a characteristic you yourself brand me with). She was not merely suggestign my weekend reading.

No I am not a Muslim.

I was joking about the Media.

Furthermore, it sounds like you waiver on your pacifistic views. On one hand you say that the Jews should have done nothing and then on the other, it seems you say that they weren't doing enough.

When did I say that the Jews should have done nothing? When have I ever suggested such a thing? How is requesting action against my nonviolent and "pacifistic" views?

I'm not sure exactly what you're trying to say. There were many people who tried to resist the Nazis, not just Jews. considering they were only 1% of the population, they were at a tremendous disadvantage in Germany. The ones who tried to resist the Nazis were either killed on the spot, tortured to death, or else publically humiliated. The SA would force Jews to clean public streets with their hands. I remember reading about one Jew in Munich who was forced to walk down the street wearing a sign that read, "I will never again complain about the Nazis," and other various things.

Organize and resist. 1% or 90%, it doesn't matter. You either accept oppression or you fight it. It's hard to find a middle ground there.

G>B, I don't think Gandhi was right in his philosophy on the world. I have never been a huge fan of his. Pacifism might work at times but then there are other times when military force is absolutely neccessary in order to fight for one's honor, family, and life.

Is it right to kill? No. It isn't. Gandhi believe that by refusing to do that, no matter what the cost, that it would lead the world to becoming a better place, even if he was the only one doing that. I believe that he was right.

 

[robin]

I'm sorry, it just seems like waiting until you're insided Robin and G>B, you guys sound really anti-semetic, I'm sorry.

Robin, your claim that the Jews who operated factories and such were just as guilty for the Holocaust as the men who perpetrated it, is erroneous. They were forced, like slaves, to act in such a manner. Were African Americans to blame for slavery because some of them were forced to scold and whip their fellow people on the cotton fields? They weren't to blame, to suggest they were is cruel and insensitive to the victims of the situation.

GW you didn't read my post correctly & I don't think you should be so keen to cry 'anti semite' like you're crying wolf. It undermines the phrase. Your sentence 'The Jews as such were as guilty of the holocaust' are your words not mine & are a blatant misinterpretaion.
I merely drew comparisons between the plight of Jewish sondercommandos & the average German. Both could be shot if they didn't participate in the business of killing. I clearly stated the top Nazis are the truly guilty ones. Having said that there's no doubt the average German in the camp would be doing the job with relish as much as under duress, whereas clearly the Jews obviously did it purely under extreme duress.

 

[RightinNYC]

Thats right ladies and gentlemen! You heard it right from the mouth of Ghadi himself!!!! It was the Jews own inaction that caused 6 million of them to be beaten to death, gassed, burned alive, shot, stabbed, burried alive, and starved to death!

Wow! All those years of hearing about how the holocaust was Hilter's fault were wrong! All those pictures of German soldiers throwing babies up against walls to kill them in front of their mothers were photoshopped! Amazing!

I am glad Mr. Gandhi was here to enlighten me on the true history of World War II.

I'm a bit confused...where exactly is Gandhi arguing that the Holocaust is the Jews fault?

All I'm seeing is an argument that if the Jews in german-occupied territories had taken action in a different fashion, earlier, that some portion of the tragedy may have been avoidable.

But feel free to completely misconstrue that and villify him for engaging in historical reflection.

This is some :spin: that even O'Reilly would be proud of....:roll:

 

[teacher]

Looks like some are catching onto Gandhi. Bought time.

 

[RightinNYC]

Who said anything about non-violence? Non-violence wouldn
't have worked against rabid psychopaths hell-bent on exterminating a race, regardless if the resistance had direct access to the German people. Cute idea, but so idealistic even a teenager like myself isn't going to fall for it.

Again, cute, but utterly useless. If they had no compassion for the co-workers and neighbours they saw suffering, why would they care about seeing a stranger die like a coward?

Personally, I'd choose living with the faith that things will eventually get better than giving up and being shot like an animal. By surviving, you win.

You're neglecting a key historical fact. The vast majority of Germans during WWII did not know what was happening to the Jews. They saw the Jews being rounded up and taken away by trains. Nobody knew they were being massacred. Hell, even most of the Jewish population, even after hearing evidence of what was happening, chose not to believe it. So, there was little German resistance to the deportation of the Jews, and public opposition to the actions was minimal.

If the Jews had all refused to board the trains, and the Nazi army was faced with the choice of either abandoning their plans or shooting the Jews one by one in the middle of these German towns, you're right, they might have chosen the latter.

But it's not at all absurd to believe that if the public as a whole had seen this slaughter happening in front of them, the level of German internal opposition to the policies would have skyrocketed, possibly resulting in an end to these actions.

It's really easy to peg all Germans as Nazis who wanted to kill all Jews in cold-blood. For those who are ignorant of history, anyways. The fact of the matter is, the vast majority of Germans, and most Nazi's, had no real antipathy toward the Jewish people. No moreso than the rest of Europe, at least. They were humans too, subject to the same human sympathies.

Hell, until 1941, Germany was the best place in all of Europe for Jews to live.

 

[robin]

I would suggest that you transport your 'feeble' mind to the nearest public library.

Moderator by title... immoderate by nature LOL

 

[cnredd]

You're neglecting a key historical fact. The vast majority of Germans during WWII did not know what was happening to the Jews. They saw the Jews being rounded up and taken away by trains. Nobody knew they were being massacred. Hell, even most of the Jewish population, even after hearing evidence of what was happening, chose not to believe it. So, there was little German resistance to the deportation of the Jews, and public opposition to the actions was minimal.

You're missing a more important historical fact...

The vast majority of Jews didn't know they were being led into trains in order to be starved, gassed, and murdered...I have a feeling there weren't any German soldiers saying, "You're going on board so we can kill you" and the Jewish population responding with "Sounds like a plan!"....

If they knew that, I wouldn't be surprised if an actual uprising would've occured...

But remember...The pilots and passengers on the planes that hit the World Trade Center were TOLD that the plane was headng back to the airport and would have a safe landing...

If they thought different, don't you think they would've responded like the ones on Flight93?(They've already heard reports of what happened when they retaliated)...

 

[RightinNYC]

You're missing a more important historical fact...

The vast majority of Jews didn't know they were being led into trains in order to be starved, gassed, and murdered...I have a feeling there weren't any German soldiers saying, "You're going on board so we can kill you" and the Jewish population responding with "Sounds like a plan!"....

If they knew that, I wouldn't be surprised if an actual uprising would've occured...

But remember...The pilots and passengers on the planes that hit the World Trade Center were TOLD that the plane was headng back to the airport and would have a safe landing...

If they thought different, don't you think they would've responded like the ones on Flight93?(They've already heard reports of what happened when they retaliated)...

Oh, I completely agree. I'm not arguing that an uprising was necessarily practical or even quite possible, simply that speculation about what the result of such an uprising would be isn't criminal, as one might assume from some reactions to G>B's original post. I think it's useful to consider the possible implications of actions in the past so as to better guide our actions in the future. Those who do not know history and all that jazz...

I think all historical speculation should be welcome, no matter the practicality of it. I think that many people are loath to allow said speculation when it comes to topics that are personally important to them, such as many Catholics about the Crusades/Papal Indiscretions, Southerners about slavery, Jews about the Holocaust, Russians about the USSR....

And very good point about the hijackings. My point is basically that currently, there's an attitude of "The Nazi's did this, it was horrible, there was nothing that could have been done." Perhaps if after we address the topic, it's determined that early collective action could have affected the outcome (even if it was not practical in THAT scenario), we might be more vigilant for said situations in the future and potentially avoid another tragedy.

 

[vergiss]

You're neglecting a key historical fact. The vast majority of Germans during WWII did not know what was happening to the Jews. They saw the Jews being rounded up and taken away by trains. Nobody knew they were being massacred. Hell, even most of the Jewish population, even after hearing evidence of what was happening, chose not to believe it. So, there was little German resistance to the deportation of the Jews, and public opposition to the actions was minimal.

I was going to mention that fact at a later point.

If the Jews had all refused to board the trains, and the Nazi army was faced with the choice of either abandoning their plans or shooting the Jews one by one in the middle of these German towns, you're right, they might have chosen the latter.

More than likely would have chosen the latter. Let's not forget that they decimated entire villages of Polish innocents as retribution for the assassination of Reinhard Heydrich (another reason Jews may have been hesitant to rebel - it's all very well to risk your own life, but that of your spouse, children, siblings and parents as well?). Thousands (if not millions) of Jews were massacred before stepping anywhere near a train, as is made evident by the mass graves scattered across Eastern Europe, in forests and paddocks.

But it's not at all absurd to believe that if the public as a whole had seen this slaughter happening in front of them, the level of German internal opposition to the policies would have skyrocketed, possibly resulting in an end to these actions..

It's really easy to peg all Germans as Nazis who wanted to kill all Jews in cold-blood. For those who are ignorant of history, anyways. The fact of the matter is, the vast majority of Germans, and most Nazi's, had no real antipathy toward the Jewish people. No moreso than the rest of Europe, at least. They were humans too, subject to the same human sympathies.

Hell, until 1941, Germany was the best place in all of Europe for Jews to live.

Possibly, although people will be strangely compliant in large groups. I mean, when they saw Hitler's minion sending out propaganda about the "evil Jews", and saw their neighbours losing their rights, jobs and findally disappearing altogether, what did they think was going to happen? Their fuhrer was just in a bad mood and the Jews had gone on holiday en masse?

 

[RightinNYC]

More than likely would have chosen the latter. Let's not forget that they decimated entire villages of Polish innocents as retribution for the assassination of Reinhard Heydrich (another reason Jews may have been hesitant to rebel - it's all very well to risk your own life, but that of your spouse, children, siblings and parents as well?). Thousands (if not millions) of Jews were massacred before stepping anywhere near a train, as is made evident by the mass graves scattered across Eastern Europe, in forests and paddocks.

Look at it this way: What was the reason for the concentration camps? To most conveniently kill the Jews. Because of all the difficulties inherent in effectively killing and disposing of bodies during normal executions, the camps were created. If all the Jews had refused to go to the camps, the Nazi's could have tried their damndest to kill every single man, woman, and child in the middle of town and still not killed anywhere near the 4.8 million who died in the camps. You simply can't kill and dispose of that many people with guns and shovels in that method. So, from that perspective, Gandhi is completely right.

And this is completely neglecting the fact that its unlikely that a sustained campaign of public executions would be politically or militarily feasible.

Possibly, although people will be strangely compliant in large groups. I mean, when they saw Hitler's minion sending out propaganda about the "evil Jews", and saw their neighbours losing their rights, jobs and findally disappearing altogether, what did they think was going to happen? Their fuhrer was just in a bad mood and the Jews had gone on holiday en masse?

They thought they were being deported. NOBODY believed that they were being killed, including those who were told outright that was what was happening. And this is beside the point, but the rights and jobs that people of Jewish descent enjoyed in Germany were far superior to those of the Jews in France, Italy, Spain, or any of the other European nations.

 

[vergiss]

Look at it this way: What was the reason for the concentration camps? To most conveniently kill the Jews. Because of all the difficulties inherent in effectively killing and disposing of bodies during normal executions, the camps were created. If all the Jews had refused to go to the camps, the Nazi's could have tried their damndest to kill every single man, woman, and child in the middle of town and still not killed anywhere near the 4.8 million who died in the camps. You simply can't kill and dispose of that many people with guns and shovels in that method. So, from that perspective, Gandhi is completely right.

And this is completely neglecting the fact that its unlikely that a sustained campaign of public executions would be politically or militarily feasible.

Maybe, but how could you organise millions of people into doing it? If every Jew in Europe had done that, perhaps it may have worked. Unfortunately, people do not have the exact same plan as everyone else in times of crisis. People are sheep - only the intelligent, more perceptive ones would have been able to figure out such a thing, and for only some individuals to do that would've been totally useless.

Besides, as cnredd said, the Jews weren't expecting to be gassed. How could they have any idea of the horrors that awaited them? When they went into the "showers", they were told to memorise what peg they'd put their clothes on, for afterwards.

They thought they were being deported. NOBODY believed that they were being killed, including those who were told outright that was what was happening.

Again - people are generally stupid. They didn't believe - or they didn't want to believe?

 

[RightinNYC]

Maybe, but how could you organise millions of people into doing it? If every Jew in Europe had done that, perhaps it may have worked. Unfortunately, people do not have the exact same plan as everyone else in times of crisis. People are sheep - only the intelligent, more perceptive ones would have been able to figure out such a thing, and for only some individuals to do that would've been totally useless.

Besides, as cnredd said, the Jews weren't expecting to be gassed. How could they have any idea of the horrors that awaited them? When they went into the "showers", they were told to memorise what peg they'd put their clothes on, for afterwards.

Originally Posted by Gandhi>Bush
If the Jews had taken to nonviolence, I believe they would have succeeded.

I don't see how you two are disagreeing. It seems to me like you both agree on what might have happened, but instead disagree on the likelihood of success. Isn't that a far cry different from your original claim of:

"Who said anything about non-violence? Non-violence wouldn't have worked against rabid psychopaths hell-bent on exterminating a race, regardless if the resistance had direct access to the German people. Cute idea, but so idealistic even a teenager like myself isn't going to fall for it."

I'm glad we've at least progressed to reasoned discussion from "**** that and **** you"

Again - people are generally stupid. They didn't believe - or they didn't want to believe?

Either or, same result.

 

[vergiss]

Yeah, and if everyone acted in a perfectly civil and selfless manner, Communism could've worked too. That doesn't mean it would work.

Likewise, if people don't believe, they can be corrected and moved to do something. If they don't want to believe - pft, you're screwed.

 

[Gandhi>Bush]

GW you didn't read my post correctly & I don't think you should be so keen to cry 'anti semite' like you're crying wolf. It undermines the phrase. Your sentence 'The Jews as such were as guilty of the holocaust' are your words not mine & are a blatant misinterpretaion.
I merely drew comparisons between the plight of Jewish sondercommandos & the average German. Both could be shot if they didn't participate in the business of killing. I clearly stated the top Nazis are the truly guilty ones. Having said that there's no doubt the average German in the camp would be doing the job with relish as much as under duress, whereas clearly the Jews obviously did it purely under extreme duress.

The sentence in bold: WHEN DID I EVER SAY SUCH A THING?

 

[Gandhi>Bush]

Looks like some are catching onto Gandhi. Bought time.

For the love of God, tell me you're kidding.

 

[Gandhi>Bush]

Maybe, but how could you organise millions of people into doing it? If every Jew in Europe had done that, perhaps it may have worked. Unfortunately, people do not have the exact same plan as everyone else in times of crisis. People are sheep - only the intelligent, more perceptive ones would have been able to figure out such a thing, and for only some individuals to do that would've been totally useless.

It was easy for Gandhi and Martin Luther King. You use religion. You use the people's faith and knowledge of right and wrong and show them that killing is wrong. You use the moral highground type of reasoning, and tell them to give way to violence is a demeaning of what it means to be Jewish. There is always a spiritual side to nonviolence. It is very rare you hear of an nonviolent activist, in the extremes we speak of here, that is an atheist.

 

[MSgt]

The Holocaust was the Jews fault.....

Israel constantly having to defend themselves from Islamic radicals is the Jews fault.....

It's just amazing how much strength people manage to find when constantly blaming the victim and how much miserly weakness they have when discussing a way to "understand" the animals that perform their attrocities.

By the way....there is a little shop on a street corner that continues to be robbed. Let's do away with the little shop, thereby ending the robberies.

 

[MSgt]

It was easy for Gandhi and Martin Luther King. You use religion. You use the people's faith and knowledge of right and wrong and show them that killing is wrong. You use the moral highground type of reasoning, and tell them to give way to violence is a demeaning of what it means to be Jewish. There is always a spiritual side to nonviolence. It is very rare you hear of an nonviolent activist, in the extremes we speak of here, that is an atheist.

In what way has Israel been the aggressor? Maybe you should save this advice for the ones who are determined to commit violence in the name of their God.

Are you a dope smoker?

 

[RightinNYC]

The Holocaust was the Jews fault.....

Israel constantly having to defend themselves from Islamic radicals is the Jews fault.....

It's just amazing how much strength people manage to find when constantly blaming the victim and how much miserly weakness they have when discussing a way to "understand" the animals that perform their attrocities.

By the way....there is a little shop on a street corner that continues to be robbed. Let's do away with the little shop, thereby ending the robberies.

BUt that's the thing, nobody is saying it was the Jews fault. This entire thread is an attempt to misconstrue what G>B was saying about the holocaust.

 

[MSgt]

BUt that's the thing, nobody is saying it was the Jews fault. This entire thread is an attempt to misconstrue what G>B was saying about the holocaust.

I caught that. He does have the tendency to blame the victim though.

I was speaking in general. I've learned that I can't be "punished" if I speak in generalities and not on specific persons.

 

[shuamort]

I hate to hijack a thread that seems to be not hijacked for once. But, I'm gonna catch this movie tonight called the Protocols of Zion which seems like it might be relevent to this discussion. Has anyone else seen it?

 

[Gandhi>Bush]

The Holocaust was the Jews fault.....

I disagree.

Israel constantly having to defend themselves from Islamic radicals is the Jews fault.....

I disagree.

By the way....there is a little shop on a street corner that continues to be robbed. Let's do away with the little shop, thereby ending the robberies.

It would be a more effective solution to lower the areas crime rate wouldn't you say?

In what way has Israel been the aggressor? Maybe you should save this advice for the ones who are determined to commit violence in the name of their God.

I will give this advice to any who will listen.

Israel exists because hundreds of thousands of people lost their home. Many see that as quite aggressive.

Are you a dope smoker?

Never.