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The Holocaust Was The Jews Fault

DivineComedy

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Gandhi>Bush said:
Hundreds of thousands displaced and kicked out of their homes, and you say there was no wrong?



As soon as you stop acting like you are the absolute good and you enemy the absolute evil, we will be much closer to achieving peace for our children.



The wrong was not committed by Israel, so reparations for 1947 are not theirs to pay, so take this international LAW and shove it up your ASS:

“Termination of all claims or states of belligerency and respect for and acknowledgement of the sovereignty, territorial integrity and political independence of every State in the area and their right to live in peace within secure and recognized boundaries free from threats or acts of force;”

Only then can we have some peace.

Nobody should expect a BIGOT to stop a holocaust, especially when it doesn‘t see the absolute evil:

“The prophet, prayer and peace be upon him, said: The time will not come until Muslims will fight the Jews (and kill them); until the Jews hide behind rocks and trees, which will cry: O Muslim! there is a Jew hiding behind me, come on and kill him! This will not apply to the Gharqad, which is a Jewish tree (cited by Bukhari and Muslim).” http://www.palestinecenter.org/cpap/documents/charter.html

*****

Hypocrites are like vampires.
 

Picaro

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DivineComedy said:
If obvious BIGOTS would stop trying to “right the wrong of 1947,” as if there was a wrong, and the idolaters (see the Hamas Charter) stopped having mentally ill conversations with rocks and trees, then BIGOTS and hypocrites (see the Hamas Charter) would realize that a people were legally allowed to move to the region for the express purpose of a national home for the Jewish people, and therefore, they had a right of self-determination in 1947, then the BIGOTS and hypocrites would be in compliance with the law:

LOL good points.

The real facts are most Muslims were immigrants to the British Mandate as well, especially after 1925, and a huge wave in the mid 1930's, but the 'BIGOTS" conveniently ignore that as well, preferring the J.R.R. Tolkien version of PLO and Muslim propoganda.

They probably don't like considering the Muslim rioting and pogroms in Egypt and Iraq against Jews all throughout the 1920's and 1930's, either, or the Mufti Of Jerusalem's close friendship with Hitler during the 1930's and WW II, the Vichy French operations against Jewish settlements from Syria, ah well, it's very, very long list of Nazi-Arab firendship and support. It's more than ridiculous to see self-styled leftists suddenly supporting fanatic right wing animals, while proclaiming 'peace now' in support of a group of criminals whose 'Constitution' is entirely built on outright genocide.

It's not 'just a few Islamic radicals', it's the overwhelming majority of faux 'Palestinians' and Muslims who support this, so the 'leftists' have no real claim to ignorance as an excuse, either.
 

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Gandhi>Bush said:
Umm... No...

The Jews being in Germany isn't the reason the holocaust happened. The Holocaust happened because of the Nazis.

America did nothing to stop Rwanda. Was that our fault? I certainly don't think so.

How can you say this? The great voice for humanity declaring that it is not our fault that Rwanda continued. We have an obligation to this world. It is our role. It is the price we have to pay for being the overwhelmingly more powerful. It is the same role a mutli-millionaire has to give some back to the people. What is our fault is that we looked the other way as it was occurring and we know from history that if we do not act...nobody will.

It completly amazes me how you persist on this crusade to be the self-appointed voice of conscience and humanity, but will not take the steps necessary to preserve such things in the name of "humanity."
 
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Gandhi>Bush said:
It was my understanding that the first real resistance wasn't until the 1943 Warsaw Ghetto Uprising. My position was that said resistance was too little, too late.

The Allies effectively disarmed the German Army, and Germany itself had gun control long before WW I. This allowed right wing organizations to easily intimidate the Weimar legal establishment. Read up on Ernst Rohm. He diverted a huge stockpile of weapons from confiscation, and then distributed them to favored right wing 'militias', of which the Nazis were a particular favorite. Throughout the Weimar Republic, the right wing street thugs were better armed and more numerous than the Weimar Army.

Saying 'the resistance was too little, too late' is disengenious to say the least. It wasn't possible on a large scale in the first place. Germany only had a small number of Jews, and they were scattered all over, not just concentrated in one place. They couldn't all just leave, either, as is frequently pointed out, but ignored. You seem to think Jews were free to resist or leave; you're wrong.
 

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jamesrage said:
I think it is too easy to play connect the dots long after events have happened because we were not there with full knowledge of how every thing is going to happen and how any alternative would change events.

That's something I certainly can agree with.
 

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Gandhi>Bush said:
It was my understanding that the first real resistance wasn't until the 1943 Warsaw Ghetto Uprising. My position was that said resistance was too little, too late.
Mr. Gandhi... Either you are right and everyone else here is wrong, or...

Think about this before you once again sully your keyboard.
 

Gandhi>Bush

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DivineComedy said:
The wrong was not committed by Israel, so reparations for 1947 are not theirs to pay, so take this international LAW and shove it up your ASS:

“Termination of all claims or states of belligerency and respect for and acknowledgement of the sovereignty, territorial integrity and political independence of every State in the area and their right to live in peace within secure and recognized boundaries free from threats or acts of force;”

Only then can we have some peace.

Nobody should expect a BIGOT to stop a holocaust, especially when it doesn‘t see the absolute evil:

“The prophet, prayer and peace be upon him, said: The time will not come until Muslims will fight the Jews (and kill them); until the Jews hide behind rocks and trees, which will cry: O Muslim! there is a Jew hiding behind me, come on and kill him! This will not apply to the Gharqad, which is a Jewish tree (cited by Bukhari and Muslim).” http://www.palestinecenter.org/cpap/documents/charter.html

*****

Hypocrites are like vampires.

You can keep copying and pasting all you want, but the fact remains these people were wronged and unless you're suggesting that the UN step in and declare they made a mistake and then undo it just like that, Israel has to be the one to right it. It is they who are living in the home of the ones who were forced out, not the UN.
 

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Gandhi>Bush said:
I did not ask such a question. I made a statement and was attacked. I have asked to be proven wrong.

Your statement is implying that the Jews were organized to choose another course of action other than obedience. They didn't have this central leadership to make such a choice.
 

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Gandhi>Bush said:
You can keep copying and pasting all you want, but the fact remains these people were wronged and unless you're suggesting that the UN step in and declare they made a mistake and then undo it just like that, Israel has to be the one to right it. It is they who are living in the home of the ones who were forced out, not the UN.

This was over FIFTY years ago. This isn't something that happened yesterday or even a couple decades ago. We are talking about half a century. You sound just as bad as the Palestinians who, instead of rolling up their sleeves and progressing their society, are quite satisfied blaming the world and throwing temper tantrums. You've said it before...you cannot erase the past. What can be done is to "get along." However, the people that are refusing to get along are the very people you are rallying for.

Amazingly enough, I've just described the Middle East as a whole also. I wonder what is the common thread from one society to the next in that region?
 

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GySgt said:
How can you say this? The great voice for humanity declaring that it is not our fault that Rwanda continued. We have an obligation to this world. It is our role. It is the price we have to pay for being the overwhelmingly more powerful. It is the same role a mutli-millionaire has to give some back to the people. What is our fault is that we looked the other way as it was occurring and we know from history that if we do not act...nobody will.

It completly amazes me how you persist on this crusade to be the self-appointed voice of conscience and humanity, but will not take the steps necessary to preserve such things in the name of "humanity."

It amazes me that I, a "liberal", can be branded an apologist or a "blame-America-first" follower, when you're the one making comments like that.

Rwanda happened becuase of Hutu extremists with machetes, not because of the United States. Could we have stopped it? Maybe, probably. The truth is: I don't know much about African history, much less Rwandan history. From what I do know, it's a mess far beyond that of Sunnis and Shiites. There are an unlimited number of historica/internal/external forces effecting this single continent, all of them I am ignorant to.
 

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realist said:
Your statement is implying that the Jews were organized to choose another course of action other than obedience. They didn't have this central leadership to make such a choice.

Thank you. That is certainly a fair criticism.
 

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Picaro said:
The Allies effectively disarmed the German Army, and Germany itself had gun control long before WW I. This allowed right wing organizations to easily intimidate the Weimar legal establishment. Read up on Ernst Rohm. He diverted a huge stockpile of weapons from confiscation, and then distributed them to favored right wing 'militias', of which the Nazis were a particular favorite. Throughout the Weimar Republic, the right wing street thugs were better armed and more numerous than the Weimar Army.

Saying 'the resistance was too little, too late' is disengenious to say the least. It wasn't possible on a large scale in the first place. Germany only had a small number of Jews, and they were scattered all over, not just concentrated in one place. They couldn't all just leave, either, as is frequently pointed out, but ignored. You seem to think Jews were free to resist or leave; you're wrong.

Wow. You know I'd just like to say here, that this discussion is becoming far more reasonable than it was 20 pages ago.

That is all certainly a factor, but I would never say resistance was impossible. "Even if you are a minority of one, the truth is the truth." I'm sure you've heard some for of this as numerous historical figures have said it in one way or another. I believe that even this small amount of people could have fought the propaganda and won over many ethnic Germans. Of course such a thing could not have been done violently...
 

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GySgt said:
This was over FIFTY years ago. This isn't something that happened yesterday or even a couple decades ago. We are talking about half a century. You sound just as bad as the Palestinians who, instead of rolling up their sleeves and progressing their society, are quite satisfied blaming the world and throwing temper tantrums. You've said it before...you cannot erase the past. What can be done is to "get along." However, the people that are refusing to get along are the very people you are rallying for.

Amazingly enough, I've just described the Middle East as a whole also. I wonder what is the common thread from one society to the next in that region?

Could you get along? "Well they stole my grandfather's house and kicked him and my family out of his coutry, but its time to move on." I really don't see that in your character, nor do I see it in my own. These people want justice. They want back what they feel was stolen. I believe that if I were in the same situation, I would want the same.

To "move on" would be to appease, would it not?
 

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Gandhi>Bush said:
It amazes me that I, a "liberal", can be branded an apologist or a "blame-America-first" follower, when you're the one making comments like that.

Rwanda happened becuase of Hutu extremists with machetes, not because of the United States. Could we have stopped it? Maybe, probably. The truth is: I don't know much about African history, much less Rwandan history. From what I do know, it's a mess far beyond that of Sunnis and Shiites. There are an unlimited number of historica/internal/external forces effecting this single continent, all of them I am ignorant to.


Because it is fact. If a rape was occurring down the street and you did nothing, but pretend it wasn't hapening, are you now at fault for denying your responsibility? This is why I believe in our intervention around the globe and do not subscribe to the notion of isolationalism.

You're right, Africa is wrecked and there is little we can do, however, we do have the power to stop current genocides and the flow of Radical Islam in to Africa. And what are we doing? The bare minimum and with the help of no one. (Except a few Germans who make mistakes everywhere.) I've written on Africa also.
 

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The whole Ghandi thing is admirable, but it needs to be looked at in context. He was practicing 'nonviolence' against English law, against English bureaucrats, an entirely different set of circumstances than exists in most parts of the world.

Ghandi also ended up getting his ass shot to death and a lot of his influence on the course of Indian laws and government died with him. Great character to build a movie around, though, no question. It's just that 'nonviolence' only works when there are a lot of TV news cameras around, and the videos actually get shown to a lot of people. you won't find much of this in Arab media, Red Chinese media, etc., so it's pretty much worthless for anything but American consumption.
 

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Gandhi>Bush said:
Could you get along? "Well they stole my grandfather's house and kicked him and my family out of his coutry, but its time to move on." I really don't see that in your character, nor do I see it in my own. These people want justice. They want back what they feel was stolen. I believe that if I were in the same situation, I would want the same.

To "move on" would be to appease, would it not?

I'm intelligent. I can get along and recognize that life is as it is and I must look to my future. I would recognize that I have children who need not grow up in bigotry and rage. I would recognize that my children's future does not have to involve a path to "divine" righteousness. I also don't subscribe to a brutal religion of which brutal men are interpreting it' scripture.

Appeasement in this sense would not garnish the death of others for the sake of my own skin. Israel is not out to destroy Palestinians, so what exactly are they appeasing? They were not ripped from their homes. They were forced to live with others, they refused, and they attacked. They lost and were ejected. Move on.
 

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Gandhi>Bush said:
You can keep copying and pasting all you want, but the fact remains these people were wronged and unless you're suggesting that the UN step in and declare they made a mistake and then undo it just like that, Israel has to be the one to right it. It is they who are living in the home of the ones who were forced out, not the UN.

taday.jpg


Take a look at the picture Mr. Gandhi. It is Tel'Aviv, the city that I call home. I can assure you... everything that you see to the horizon was built by Israelis. You don't seem to understand Mr. Gandhi. The 'Palestine' of 1946 that you wish to return to... does not exist anymore. Nothing of old 'Palestine' remains within the borders of Israel.

Israel was created in 1947 by the United Nations for the express purpose of Jewish settlement. The war initiated by the Arabs in 1948 was the catalyst of Palestinian flight. If you want to blame anyone Mr. Gandhi, then point your indicting finger at the 1948 Arab aggression.

Your other thread - War on Terror - Nonviolence vs Islamic Terrorism - is a better place to continue our discuussion on Israel/Palestine. This thread is about your musings on the Holocaust... unless you wish to withdraw your erroneous assumptions and misunderstandings. Tell me.
 
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Picaro said:
The whole Ghandi thing is admirable, but it needs to be looked at in context. He was practicing 'nonviolence' against English law, against English bureaucrats, an entirely different set of circumstances than exists in most parts of the world.

Ghandi also ended up getting his ass shot to death and a lot of his influence on the course of Indian laws and government died with him. Great character to build a movie around, though, no question. It's just that 'nonviolence' only works when there are a lot of TV news cameras around, and the videos actually get shown to a lot of people. you won't find much of this in Arab media, Red Chinese media, etc., so it's pretty much worthless for anything but American consumption.


We've been through this with him before. It falls on deaf ears. 'nonviolence' only works when you are facing an enemy that is not determined to destroy you.
 

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Tashah said:

taday.jpg


Take a look at the picture Mr. Gandhi. It is Tel'Aviv, the city that I call home. I can assure you... everything that you see to the horizon was built by Israelis. You don't seem to understand Mr. Gandhi. The 'Palestine' of 1946 that you wish to return to... does not exist anymore. Nothing of old 'Palestine' remains within the borders of Israel.

Israel was created 1n 1947 by the United Nations for the express purpose of Jewish settlement. The war initiated by the Arabs in 1948 was the catalyst of Palestinian flight. If you want to blame anyone Mr. Gandhi, then point your indicting finger at the 1947 Arab aggression.

Your other thread - War on Terror - Nonviolence vs Islamic Terrorism - is a better place to continue our discuussion on Israel/Palestine. This thread is about your musings on the Holocaust... unless you wish to withdraw your erroneous assumptions and misunderstandings. Tell me.


I just don't understand how people can argue with this.
 

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He seems to think that if German Jews had held marches, Be Ins, and sit ins or something like the hippies did in the 1960's U.S. and Europe that the rest of the world would have magically come in and rescued them or something, is all I can figure out.
 

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Gandhi>Bush said:
You can keep copying and pasting all you want, but the fact remains these people were wronged and unless you're suggesting that the UN step in and declare they made a mistake and then undo it just like that, Israel has to be the one to right it. It is they who are living in the home of the ones who were forced out, not the UN.


By best estimates, approximately 600,000 Arabs were displaced, most of whom did not own land and many of which left of their own accord.

Also, by best estimates, approximately 900,000 Jews in Arab lands were displaced -- people who *did* own land and who were forcefully removed or persecuted into leaving.


I see you refer to to the former, but without so much as a word as far as the latter, and it sounds to me that your sense of justice depends upon the nature of the websites you visit. Yes, the ISM type sites all select the information they portray very, very carefully so as to elicit sympathy, but it is what they (and you) ignore that reveals the bias.
 

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Gandhi>Bush said:
You can keep copying and pasting all you want, but the fact remains these people were wronged and unless you're suggesting that the UN step in and declare they made a mistake and then undo it just like that, Israel has to be the one to right it. It is they who are living in the home of the ones who were forced out, not the UN.


Considering, the recent decision of the “liberal” side of the court making apples into oranges with regard to “public use,” this is the scariest legal concept I have ever heard articulated by anything that doesn‘t claim to be a “liberal.” Change your damn moderator color, you stinking “liberal!”

The obvious bigots want us to believe “The Holocaust Was The Jews Fault;” then the bigots want us to accept that the so-called “Palestinians” deserve exclusive ownership of formerly Ottoman Empire and Jordanian land, when they didn’t have the balls to declare independent statehood before the Balfour Declaration or after, respectively.

The lawful government takes ownership of land from Otto for “public use,” and another legally buys the land from the lawful developer according to the LAW, the transaction is recognized by the legal authorities, then you turn around and claim that the new owner is responsible to give the land back.

The horror, the horror!
 

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Gandhi>Bush said:
It's too ambiguous to make a decision.

It looks like others have made the point I was leading up to so I'll just do this quickly. I also do not think you are an anti-semite and your views are pretty consistent it seems, 1/you believe in figthting against oppression in all cases and 2/the best method is always nonviolent resistance. If I am stating your position accurately, then the weakness I see in this is that circumstances always dictate what action is right. Nonviolence resistence is not a good method for a terrorist strapped with explosives running into a playground full of kids. It ends in the ultimate oppression. Non violent resistence was brilliant and effective for India overcoming British imperialism and African American civil rights movement, but as a method for a fascist regime determined to ethnic cleanse a population, cmon.
 

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Gandhi>Bush said:
I like to think I would have done something. Even if it is as simple as not moving to the ghettos, as not walking in the gutter at the request of a hatemonger. Even if it as simple as giving my life so that I may hold on to my obedience, I like to think I would have done something, but I like to think that I would not have been the lap dog that they would call me to be.

I would like to think I would have organized. I like to think I would have resisted in some fashion. Even if it was a violent fashion, but there wasn't. There wasn't any resistance at all. Not until the Warsaw Ghetto uprising was there any resistance.


I am sure after all the replies this might have been addressed already, but if I understand you correctly you are saying you think the Jews should have resisted the Nazi efforts. I can't help but wonder what this would have accomplished, other then getting themselves killed sooner.

You are right that this is a sensitive topic, and by your saying they did nothing you are implying that they welcomed their own demise. Personally though it is my thought that unless you were there and were in the ghettos personally, unless you were in the death camps personally, you have no right, nor any place to speak on what they should have done.

It is my personal belief that you are trying to speak about something to which you have no experience, and something to which you would have no idea what your true reactions would be if you found yourself in the same situation. It is one thing to come on a message board and say you would resist, etc. It is quite another to stand staring down the barrel of a gun, or seeing one put to your child's head and actually resist.
 

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GySgt said:
I'm intelligent. I can get along and recognize that life is as it is and I must look to my future. I would recognize that I have children who need not grow up in bigotry and rage. I would recognize that my children's future does not have to involve a path to "divine" righteousness. I also don't subscribe to a brutal religion of which brutal men are interpreting it' scripture.

Appeasement in this sense would not garnish the death of others for the sake of my own skin. Israel is not out to destroy Palestinians, so what exactly are they appeasing? They were not ripped from their homes. They were forced to live with others, they refused, and they attacked. They lost and were ejected. Move on.

It would be appeasement in the sense that if you feel these people took something from you, that they can keep it.
 
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