The Heart of the Problem - Social Media

[Luckyone]

Definitely.



What does "go forward" mean here?

Go forward means:

1) get back to being among the best in education (we were among the top 5 in the world, we are now 27th). Social Media makes people stupid.
2) be the pillar of Democracy as we were for over 200 years. We are now failing to be a nation based on Democracy
3) accomplish being the most advanced in technology. We have now fallen behind China and in some ways behind Russia (they have hypersonic missiles.........we don't)
4) get things done as far as helping our nation. We cannot pass anything anymore in Congress. The fight between the left and the right is so strong now that even when something comes up that helps both sides, if it is presented by the left, the right says no...............simply because it was the left that proposed it.
5) we need to get back to the quality of life that we had before. (The United States declined "both in absolute terms and relative to its wealthy, world-power peers," ranking just 28th in social progress, according to the index, which measures quality of life in areas such as personal safety; health and wellness; environmental quality; personal freedom and choice; and inclusiveness.)

Does this answer your question?

If we let Social Media gets its way, the difference of opinions is so broad that nothing will ever get done.

 

[aociswundumho]

Go forward means:

1) get back to being among the best in education (we were among the top 5 in the world, we are now 27th).

I agree. The first step should be to abolish all government-run schools.

4) get things done as far as helping our nation. We cannot pass anything anymore in Congress.

I know, it's great. The more gridlock the better.

5) we need to get back to the quality of life that we had before.

Agreed. The highest expense for the middle class is taxes:

Taxes - Largest Expense Anyone Has in their Lifetime - Investment Marketing Solutions IMS

www.imsfinancialgroup.com

We need to drastically cut taxes and stop the thieving government from lowering our standard of living anymore than it already has.

Does this answer your question?

Yes, and I feel this was a very productive exchange. We both understand that government is the main problem.

 

[Gaius46]

So your entire diatribe means that Social Media is a benefit to society? That millions of individual voices, opinions, biases, conspiracy theories, etc. helps a nation go forward?

Millions of opinions would be fine if they were actually informed. The problem isn’t social media as much as an under educated populace.

 

[Luckyone]

I agree. The first step should be to abolish all government-run schools.

How is that going to help us get more educated. Most people cannot afford a private school, meaning less education would occur.

I know, it's great. The more gridlock the better.

I can't even address this answer of yours. It is totally ridiculous.

Agreed. The highest expense for the middle class is taxes:

You mean less police, less infrastructure, less financial help, less education, less management is going to increase our standard of living? Is money the only thing that qualifies standard of living?

Taxes - Largest Expense Anyone Has in their Lifetime - Investment Marketing Solutions IMS

www.imsfinancialgroup.com

We need to drastically cut taxes and stop the thieving government from lowering our standard of living anymore than it already has.

Pure BS.

It has often been suggested that Republicans are better at overseeing the economy than Democrats. However, an analysis of economic performance since World War II under Democratic versus Republican presidents shows that claims that Republicans are better at managing the economy are simply not true. While the reasons are neither fully understood nor completely attributable to policy choices, data show that the economy has performed much better during Democratic administrations. Economic growth, job creation and industrial production have all been stronger.https://www.jec.senate.gov/public/i...omy-under-democratic-vs-republican-presidents

https://www.jec.senate.gov/public/i...omy-under-democratic-vs-republican-presidents
Yes, and I feel this was a very productive exchange. We both understand that government is the main problem.

Productive? No just the opposite. Just like our country not working together is.
https://www.jec.senate.gov/public/i...omy-under-democratic-vs-republican-presidents

 

[Luckyone]

Millions of opinions would be fine if they were actually informed. The problem isn’t social media as much as an under educated populace.

Social media is not a school. It is an orators box where people do not learn, they express their uninformed opinions.

 

[Indydave]

Freedom of speech needs to be made under circumstances that allow it to be spread with guidelines that allow it to be done correctly and responsibly. For example, on Social Media you have no way of being sure that the person expressing his views is not a 6-year old child, is not a crazy person in an asylum that allows its inmates to be on the internet, or done by someone that was convicted of being a felonious criminal.

If you go to a park and someone is orating on a soap box about this injustice or the other, at least you can seen the type of a person he seems to be.

Would you buy anything these people said if you were seeing them in person? They all have Facebook pages and you can read their comments there.

View attachment 67385220

'Freedom of speech needs to be made under circumstances that allow it to be spread with guidelines that allow it to be done correctly and responsibly. '..........so how do you do that

 

[Craig234]

Social media is not the 'heart'. In many ways, people are more informed more today than they used to be.

More the heart is that there is a massive propaganda machine which uses social media in part as a tool, to misinform and manipulate - because it wants to change public opinion to support its minions, mostly Republicans - and yes, that's political.

It's the misinformation infrastructure, which includes Fox, and talk radio, and social media and more creating information bubbles for much of the country to where people can't even talk.

People can't even agree on things like science - if they get political interests pushing a contrary angle, like the climate or Covid issues. It's all about trying to manipulate people for their political loyalty. And as long as there are trillions of dollars at stake demanding that be done, it'll continue.

In the days of our founding fathers, such manipulations weren't possible, but a pamphlet could persuade much of the country, as Thomas Paine famously found as he largely stirred the country to revolution with his pamphlet "Common Sense".

A century ago, mass advertising began to be developed; the government hired thousands of speechgivers to travel the country to change public opinion to favor the US entering WWI in a very crude technique.

Fifty years later, politics was still a crude thing - "I like Ike", "Nixon's the One", "All the Way with JFK" with the media playing an important role but not acting as a propaganda machine.

One early technique was Republican "mailing lists" begun in the 1960's which helped build 'movement' support.

It was changes in the 1970's organizing the nation's wealthy interests to pursue dominating American politics that began to change things. pouring huge amounts of money into competing with 'grass roots' opinion and the media to persuade the public. When you saw 'think tanks' like Heritage, Cato, AEI and others pursue plutocratic political power systematically. Those efforts later were ready to seize upon tools like Fox News, talk radio, and the internet.

Perhaps there's an analogy in China. China uses social media, totally controlled by the government, who provides the only messages allowed, and it's very effective at persuading the people (same in North Korea, where people are given televisions and required to view government propaganda).

So you might say social media is the 'heart' of the problem in China - but is it social media - the tool - or the Chinese Communist Party who 'owns' the use of that tool and what they do with it? I'd argue the party, their power, is the 'heart' of the issue, much as the American right-wing propaganda industry using tools to misinform and manipulate - the power from their having so much wealth for this - is the 'heart'. Less inequality = more democracy.

 

[Indydave]

No, lack of critical thinking, stupidity, and gullibility are the problems. If people didn't click garbage content, social media wouldn't create garbage content.

agree......so our technology is smarter than we are and it's ok for the technology to be free but not we the citizens.......besides one man's garbage content is another's religion......freedom is such a bitch

 

[Craig234]

'Freedom of speech needs to be made under circumstances that allow it to be spread with guidelines that allow it to be done correctly and responsibly. '..........so how do you do that

One way I'd suggest is public funding of 'truth systems'. That sounds scary - like state control and Chinese propaganda - but think more public education teaching journalists and PBS/NPR/BBC.

For example, the new industry has hit terrible financial times, and the industry's resources - foreign bureaus, investigate reporters - have been decimated.

That allows wrongdoers to have the secrecy and lack of accountability they thrive on, increasing their actions - have you heard about US foreign policy being corrupted for four years as Jared Kushner just got a $2 billion payout - and for propagandists to get much louder voices to misinform people.

It's been proposed for the government to subsidize independent, investigate journalism to strengthen the industry, and I think it's worth considering given the problems. We should have people explore other ideas as well, looking how to keep our freedoms while limiting the exploitation of them by corrupt interests.

 

[Cope]

Go forward means:

1) get back to being among the best in education (we were among the top 5 in the world, we are now 27th). Social Media makes people stupid.

You mean the Educational system run by the Democrats? With a teachers union beholden to them?

2) be the pillar of Democracy as we were for over 200 years. We are now failing to be a nation based on Democracy
3) accomplish being the most advanced in technology. We have now fallen behind China and in some ways behind Russia (they have hypersonic missiles.........we don't)

So spend even MORE on the military? No thanks

4) get things done as far as helping our nation. We cannot pass anything anymore in Congress. The fight between the left and the right is so strong now that even when something comes up that helps both sides, if it is presented by the left, the right says no...............simply because it was the left that proposed it.

Agreed, but social media just brought this to light, and now it's all for show. You can't be seen to compromise with the enemy and we are all painted as enemies NOW.

5) we need to get back to the quality of life that we had before. (The United States declined "both in absolute terms and relative to its wealthy, world-power peers," ranking just 28th in social progress, according to the index, which measures quality of life in areas such as personal safety; health and wellness; environmental quality; personal freedom and choice; and inclusiveness.)

Do we also go back to blue collar jobs and moms that stayed home with the kids and no sexual revolution and moral failing?

Does this answer your question?

It answers some, but opens up a lot more.

If we let Social Media gets its way, the difference of opinions is so broad that nothing will ever get done.

Really as it should be, we need BROAD (think 66% +) to enact legislation that affects everyone, not a piddly 50.1%

 

[Indydave]

One way I'd suggest is public funding of 'truth systems'. That sounds scary - like state control and Chinese propaganda - but think more public education teaching journalists and PBS/NPR/BBC.

For example, the new industry has hit terrible financial times, and the industry's resources - foreign bureaus, investigate reporters - have been decimated.

That allows wrongdoers to have the secrecy and lack of accountability they thrive on, increasing their actions - have you heard about US foreign policy being corrupted for four years as Jared Kushner just got a $2 billion payout - and for propagandists to get much louder voices to misinform people.

It's been proposed for the government to subsidize independent, investigate journalism to strengthen the industry, and I think it's worth considering given the problems. We should have people explore other ideas as well, looking how to keep our freedoms while limiting the exploitation of them by corrupt interests.

....worth a try but we have imo reached a point in our evolution where we either acknowledge how hard headed and stupid we are and decide to be adults or give up some freedoms....I personally would never consent to restriction of speech......it's like the 2nd Amendment.......we understand that freedom to bear arms brings with it the madman who will kill dozens of innocents but we accept that as part of the price for this freedom.......

 

[Luckyone]

'Freedom of speech needs to be made under circumstances that allow it to be spread with guidelines that allow it to be done correctly and responsibly. '..........so how do you do that

That is a good question.

I guess it might be more about teaching people the innate negatives that exist in Social Media than anything that is actually done to not curb freedom of speech.
Perhaps one way to do it is to make it an obligation for Social Media to be done with through not only typing words but through voice and camera?

Either way, it is a tough problem to resolve.

 

[Gaius46]

Social media is not a school. It is an orators box where people do not learn, they express their uninformed opinions.

Yep. And un- under-educated people believe what they are told. Social media misinformation wouldn't be a problem if people could actually think.

 

[Luckyone]

You mean the Educational system run by the Democrats? With a teachers union beholden to them?

So spend even MORE on the military? No thanks

Agreed, but social media just brought this to light, and now it's all for show. You can't be seen to compromise with the enemy and we are all painted as enemies NOW.

Do we also go back to blue collar jobs and moms that stayed home with the kids and no sexual revolution and moral failing?

It answers some, but opens up a lot more.

Really as it should be, we need BROAD (think 66% +) to enact legislation that affects everyone, not a piddly 50.1%

Let me say that given that I have been around for a few years (I am 76), I remember the times that this country was in a much better situation overall.

1) Income inequality was not as bad as it is now
2) Democrats and Republicans were willing to talk and compromise. Things got done.
3) quality of life was much better than now
4) there was very little "hate" going on between parties
5) Education was at a higher level that it is now
6) People did not have to work as hard or as much as they do now to make ends meet
7) People were generally happier.
8) there was more understanding of others.


Nothing (other than Social Media) has fundamentally changed, meaning there is NO REASON we cannot have now what we had then. The government is no better or worse than before. The problems being faced are no better and no worse than then. Housing, income, taxes, health insurance, welfare, etc., are the same things facing people now that were being faced in the past.

The only things that have actually changed are people and the changes are more emotional than physical. There is more hate, more disagreement, more opinions, and more focus on wealth and economics than then. The physical needs are the same but the emotional needs have increased tenfold..............and I mean the need to win, to be right, to be considered, to be appreciated, and to get what we want.

I think this country has gone backwards emotionally and Social Media is the main cause of it.

I see no reason why we can't work to have what we had before. There are no physical constrictions preventing it from happening.

 

[Craig234]

Nothing (other than Social Media) has fundamentally changed, meaning there is NO REASON we cannot have now what we had then. The government is no better or worse than before. The problems being faced are no better and no worse than then. Housing, income, taxes, health insurance, welfare, etc., are the same things facing people now that were being faced in the past.

You seem to have missed the huge and important change that has come from wealthy interests organizing politically to create a political machine that dominates our country. That is behind most of the changes you mention - which apparently seem to you inexplicable and easy to fix, not understanding their cause.

What comes from it is huge amounts of money funding a political war that affects culture, information, and more, replacing 'normal' politicians with ones funded by that money with only two jobs - vote for the wealthy interests and get votes any way they can. That's replaces competene and public service with demagogues, charlatans, and other corrupt figures - like trump. There's a reason 95% of the party's officials showed loyalty to him.

The change I mention includes an army of operatives that have taken over our political system and manipulated at least a third of Americans. That political machine includes Heritage, AEI, Cato, Hoover, ALEC, The Washington Examiner and other right-wing publications, Fox, 95% of talk radio, many internet sources, OAN, and much more all working in unison for political power, using the divisiveness you rue as a weapon.

In addition, these interests have more directly taken over the system, with expensive campaigns requiring their money letting them pick candidates, and a lobbying system of legalized bribery that has over half of members and staff in Congress going into waiting reward jobs in lobbying when they leave "public service". Half of lawmakers' time is reported to be spent fundraising.

You're greatly overestimating the power of social media by not seeming to be aware of the real things at play, rooted in that machine funded by billions.

I see no reason why we can't work to have what we had before. There are no physical constrictions preventing it from happening.

As long as powerful interests are organized to fund a massive political machine, that machine will get much of the country to be loyal to it and cause the problems you mention. The only options I'm seeing are to defeat the machine - take away the fuel of extreme money from its funders, continue as-is, or surrender. Surrender could like something like China, with strong controls and little freedom. Just hand over your rights and money and no one gets hurt.

 

[Cope]

Let me say that given that I have been around for a few years (I am 76), I remember the times that this country was in a much better situation overall.

1) Income inequality was not as bad as it is now
2) Democrats and Republicans were willing to talk and compromise. Things got done.
3) quality of life was much better than now
4) there was very little "hate" going on between parties
5) Education was at a higher level that it is now
6) People did not have to work as hard or as much as they do now to make ends meet
7) People were generally happier.
8) there was more understanding of others.


Nothing (other than Social Media) has fundamentally changed, meaning there is NO REASON we cannot have now what we had then. The government is no better or worse than before. The problems being faced are no better and no worse than then. Housing, income, taxes, health insurance, welfare, etc., are the same things facing people now that were being faced in the past.

The only things that have actually changed are people and the changes are more emotional than physical. There is more hate, more disagreement, more opinions, and more focus on wealth and economics than then. The physical needs are the same but the emotional needs have increased tenfold..............and I mean the need to win, to be right, to be considered, to be appreciated, and to get what we want.

I think this country has gone backwards emotionally and Social Media is the main cause of it.

Look, I agree with you that the country has gone backwards but what are you willing to repeal to get back to that? Those ships have sailed and it is lazy in the extreme to lay the blame solely on social media.
ALL the media, all the people, the sexual revolution, the race/culture wars, jobs sent overseas and meanwhile we import labor because we as a country are too god damn lazy or the labor is worth so little that no one here wants to do it.
You have half the country, HALF, that pay no FEDERAL INCOME TAX, and yet you have about half the country wanting more done to help those people with other people's money.

We have a very wide split in this country to be honest, with half wanting to give away what we built and the other half not. We have half the country wanting to allow women ultimate control over their bodies and about half don't. We have about half the country wanting people to wake up and get with the program, the other half is making excuses for them.

I see no reason why we can't work to have what we had before. There are no physical constrictions preventing it from happening.

All of the things listed, and MANY more, are the reasons why these things you are pining for don't happen.
To be completely honest, I don't have a solution either ,but that blame is on US as a whole damn country and not simply social media.

Basically, we as a country got comfortable on top and soon there will come another bigger, more powerful (likely economic) country that dethrones us. You also have half the country going "OK.." with no worry at all.

 

[Luckyone]

Look, I agree with you that the country has gone backwards but what are you willing to repeal to get back to that? Those ships have sailed and it is lazy in the extreme to lay the blame solely on social media.
ALL the media, all the people, the sexual revolution, the race/culture wars, jobs sent overseas and meanwhile we import labor because we as a country are too god damn lazy or the labor is worth so little that no one here wants to do it.
You have half the country, HALF, that pay no FEDERAL INCOME TAX, and yet you have about half the country wanting more done to help those people with other people's money.

We have a very wide split in this country to be honest, with half wanting to give away what we built and the other half not. We have half the country wanting to allow women ultimate control over their bodies and about half don't. We have about half the country wanting people to wake up and get with the program, the other half is making excuses for them.

All of the things listed, and MANY more, are the reasons why these things you are pining for don't happen.
To be completely honest, I don't have a solution either ,but that blame is on US as a whole damn country and not simply social media.

Basically, we as a country got comfortable on top and soon there will come another bigger, more powerful (likely economic) country that dethrones us. You also have half the country going "OK.." with no worry at all.

I guess my point is that it is the "people" that are to blame and not the government. On the other side of the coin, Trump did cause all those negative feelings to rise to a higher degree than before, meaning the "his government" certainly was guilty of stoking those negative feelings and making things worse and more "now" than ever before. Biden is not doing that, he is like all other presidents in the past.

I agree that there is no easy solution. I have stated it before (on several occasions) and I will mention it again. The only thing that will generate a change of this road we are on is a major catastrophe that forces Americans to work together (not apart) to overcome. Nothing else will generate the desire or need to work together. It is sad but true.

 

[Schism]

I blame Morton Downey Jr, Jerry Springer, and Maury Povich.

 

[Simpletruther]

Do you have to look at everything from a political point of view?

This article is not political. It is a study of what Social Media has done and there is no doubt that Social Media gives an orating platform to every kook, every idiot and every biased person to be heard.

That is a big problems because it makes all of us wary of the news media, of the government institutions, and of everyone in a power position. That, in an of itself, is a huge problem because even if any of those are doing something wrong, something political, something disruptive, at least in the past the country as a whole went along and if nothing else we worked together to get something accomplished. Things GOT DONE. Ultimately, enough good things got done that made us advance as a nation.

Now, nothing gets accomplished. We are being pulled apart in hundreds of directions and we never work as a team vs world. We work as a mole against "each other" and that means we go nowhere, it means we hate each other, it means problems occur that have NEVER occurred in the past.

Social media has in effect made us not a one nation but 3.3 billion individual nations

Oh it's political, thus the biased dig at the right.

 

[Luckyone]

You seem to have missed the huge and important change that has come from wealthy interests organizing politically to create a political machine that dominates our country. That is behind most of the changes you mention - which apparently seem to you inexplicable and easy to fix, not understanding their cause.

What comes from it is huge amounts of money funding a political war that affects culture, information, and more, replacing 'normal' politicians with ones funded by that money with only two jobs - vote for the wealthy interests and get votes any way they can. That's replaces competene and public service with demagogues, charlatans, and other corrupt figures - like trump. There's a reason 95% of the party's officials showed loyalty to him.

The change I mention includes an army of operatives that have taken over our political system and manipulated at least a third of Americans. That political machine includes Heritage, AEI, Cato, Hoover, ALEC, The Washington Examiner and other right-wing publications, Fox, 95% of talk radio, many internet sources, OAN, and much more all working in unison for political power, using the divisiveness you rue as a weapon.

In addition, these interests have more directly taken over the system, with expensive campaigns requiring their money letting them pick candidates, and a lobbying system of legalized bribery that has over half of members and staff in Congress going into waiting reward jobs in lobbying when they leave "public service". Half of lawmakers' time is reported to be spent fundraising.

You're greatly overestimating the power of social media by not seeming to be aware of the real things at play, rooted in that machine funded by billions.



As long as powerful interests are organized to fund a massive political machine, that machine will get much of the country to be loyal to it and cause the problems you mention. The only options I'm seeing are to defeat the machine - take away the fuel of extreme money from its funders, continue as-is, or surrender. Surrender could like something like China, with strong controls and little freedom. Just hand over your rights and money and no one gets hurt.

Greed, corruption and power hunger has existed throughout the ages and is NOT the root of the problem we have now. There has always been powerful people trying to run the show.

I totally disagree with you. I do believe Social Media is the cause of the problem. Social Media has given the rich, greedy and powerful people an additional way to manipulate the people. Trump and twitter comes to mind. Without Social Media, these rich, powerful and greedy people would do no better than they were doing before.

 

[Luckyone]

I blame Morton Downey Jr, Jerry Springer, and Maury Povich.

I blame Mark Zuckerberg. He is the inventor of Social Media as it is now.

 

[Craig234]

Greed, corruption and power hunger has existed throughout the ages and is NOT the root of the problem we have now.

We have NOT had the concentration of wealth and the organized political machine it funds in the history of the world. Social media is just one small tool in the equation, but I understand you don't see that, and blame the change you see.

 

[Luckyone]

We have NOT had the concentration of wealth and the organized political machine it funds in the history of the world. Social media is just one small tool in the equation, but I understand you don't see that, and blame the change you see.

Okay, if you say so.

 

[Bullseye]

We have NOT had the concentration of wealth and the organized political machine it funds in the history of the world. Social media is just one small tool in the equation, but I understand you don't see that, and blame the change you see.

When the CEO of one of those Social Media can dish out $400,000,000 to democratic election orgs in 4-5 states I'd say we're way beyond "small potato" stage.