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The Harm Principle

Vaporising is possible with a custom made or prefabricated vaporiser that evaporates the thc with heat. Its quite a clean, non-stoning, lucid high with out the retardinating effect of sleepiness or body numbing etc. I quite like it. Dissolving it in lipids makes it ingestable you can even make butter or other treats out of it.

Interesting. If I ever go back to partaking, I will still want my bong hits and the occasional joint. However, I'd be open to trying new ways too. I am getting excited thinking about all the specialty foods that people could make, market, and sell!
 
Yes, the culinary arts! :mrgreen:
 
...Is my right to smoke and pollute the air greater or lesser than one's right to clean air? Currently, my right to smoke is greater than one's right to clean air.

Ok, so how does one citizen have greater rights than his fellow citizen? :(
 
Ok, so how does one citizen have greater rights than his fellow citizen? :(

Let's put it the other way then: one's right to clean air does not trump my right to smoke.
 
Let's put it the other way then: one's right to clean air does not trump my right to smoke.

I disagree in part, but that is a discussion for a later time. Back to the case of the Lozano's and Mr. Farrell...

If it bothers this family so much, they can always move. It is like living near an airport and being bothered by noise pollution - you can always move.

I would agree that if the Lozano’s moved into an apartment complex near an airport and then complained about the noise, they have no ground to make the complaint. But the Lozano’s signed the lease to move into a “smoke-free” apartment complex. I believe the family had an expectation the facility would be “smoke-free”.

The Lozano’s are not complaining about Mr. Farrell’s medical needs, they are complaining about the method of delivery chosen by Mr. Farrell. In this thread Roguenuke eluded to and SE102 explained there are alternative means of delivery. With these alternatives available to Mr. Farrell, I do not believe the Lozano’s have to...

...suffer the offensive nature of smoke...
or
...abide by the odors or find a way to leave.
 
I disagree in part, but that is a discussion for a later time. Back to the case of the Lozano's and Mr. Farrell...



I would agree that if the Lozano’s moved into an apartment complex near an airport and then complained about the noise, they have no ground to make the complaint. But the Lozano’s signed the lease to move into a “smoke-free” apartment complex. I believe the family had an expectation the facility would be “smoke-free”.

The Lozano’s are not complaining about Mr. Farrell’s medical needs, they are complaining about the method of delivery chosen by Mr. Farrell. In this thread Roguenuke eluded to and SE102 explained there are alternative means of delivery. With these alternatives available to Mr. Farrell, I do not believe the Lozano’s have to...

I believe that the "smoke-free" qualifier relates to the indoor environment. I am sorry to say that Mr. Farrell is free to smoke outdoors. Even if Mr. Farrell is smoking indoors in his apartment, it is not in The Lozano's apartment. I believe they have no grounds.
 
This would bring it back to a violation of the Harm Principle on Mr. Farrell’s part and thereby removing his liberty to smoke marijuana in the apartment or complex.
 
This would bring it back to a violation of the Harm Principle on Mr. Farrell’s part and thereby removing his liberty to smoke marijuana in the apartment or complex.

I don't follow. Please explain.
 
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Ok, so the Lozano’s leased a “smoke free apartment” and by the reports of the family, drifting smoke has caused their apartment is no longer “smoke free”. The property managers, through the implied warranty of habitability, must guarantee the Lozano’s a habitable place (Courts have made rulings on smoke drift making an apartment inhabitable for some people) and enforce the implied covenant of quiet enjoyment. Based on the report, the property management has failed to live up to their side of the lease agreement.

The Lozano’s have the right to sue the property management to reduce their rent and require additional filtration for their apartment. Under the Fair Housing Act of 1988, the Lozano’s cannot be forced to break their lease by the property management to simply avoid loss of “income” by the reduction of rent or improvements to the air filtration. These costs and the reduction in rent are “injurious” or “harmful’ to the property management and possibly the other tenets. The property management will have to pay for the improvements or loss of rent through other means. They could increase the rents of the other tenets. Other tenets may sue as well, which will further increase the costs associated with Mr. Farrell’s contribution to the problem.

On your website, Marijuana and the Harm Principle | noharmmeansnofoul.org, you wrote “There is nothing in the smoking of marijuana which causes harm to others.”

I disagree. As demonstrated Mr. Farrell’s smoking of marijuana, rather than delivering his medical marijuana by alternate means, is causal to the “harm” to the property management/owners and anyone who bears the costs of his decision. Therefore, Mr. Farrell’s action no longer solely impacts him alone and invalidates the protection of the harm principle.

You are right, in this instance, the only way the property managers/owners can prevent harm to themselves is to exercise the power to restrict him from smoking marijuana on their property.
 
Ok, so the Lozano’s leased a “smoke free apartment” and by the reports of the family, drifting smoke has caused their apartment is no longer “smoke free”.

"smoke free" refers to smoking inside the apartment, not "smoke drift".

The property managers, through the implied warranty of habitability, must guarantee the Lozano’s a habitable place (Courts have made rulings on smoke drift making an apartment inhabitable for some people) and enforce the implied covenant of quiet enjoyment. Based on the report, the property management has failed to live up to their side of the lease agreement.

That is for the courts to decide. "smoke drift" is unrelated to the restriction of a "smoke free apartment". Which courts have made rulings on smoke drift making an apartment inhabitable for some people? And I presume you meant uninhabitable.

The Lozano’s have the right to sue the property management to reduce their rent and require additional filtration for their apartment. Under the Fair Housing Act of 1988, the Lozano’s cannot be forced to break their lease by the property management to simply avoid loss of “income” by the reduction of rent or improvements to the air filtration. These costs and the reduction in rent are “injurious” or “harmful’ to the property management and possibly the other tenets. The property management will have to pay for the improvements or loss of rent through other means. They could increase the rents of the other tenets. Other tenets may sue as well, which will further increase the costs associated with Mr. Farrell’s contribution to the problem.

It is not due to smoking, it is due to poor filtration.

On your website, Marijuana and the Harm Principle | noharmmeansnofoul.org, you wrote “There is nothing in the smoking of marijuana which causes harm to others.”

I disagree. As demonstrated Mr. Farrell’s smoking of marijuana, rather than delivering his medical marijuana by alternate means, is causal to the “harm” to the property management/owners and anyone who bears the costs of his decision. Therefore, Mr. Farrell’s action no longer solely impacts him alone and invalidates the protection of the harm principle.

I disagree.

You are right, in this instance, the only way the property managers/owners can prevent harm to themselves is to exercise the power to restrict him from smoking marijuana on their property.

Is that legal?
 
Let's put it the other way then: one's right to clean air does not trump my right to smoke.

Cigarette smokers have been trying to use this in their fight and are failing.
Why do you think you will win the same argument?

The fact that our country, government, people - and, heck, even the entire WORLD is becoming more and more concerned with overall environment-safety, emissions and so on . . . "clean air" this and "clean air" that - do you really think that you can convince everyone that their right to clean air isn't as important as your *want* to smoke something?

You're living in a bubble
 
"smoke free" refers to smoking inside the apartment, not "smoke drift".
Read the laws and legal opinions, "smoke free" does not merely mean in the apartment only.

See Birke v. Oakwood

Certain states have codified, See Utah Code 57-22-5 (h) comply with each rule, regulation, or requirement of the rental agreement, including any prohibition on, or the allowance of, smoking tobacco products within the residential rental unit, or on the premises, or both.

See Utah Code 57-8-16 (7) (a) restrictions on and requirements respecting the use and maintenance of the units and the use of the common areas and facilities as are designed to prevent unreasonable interference with the use of their respective units and of the common areas and facilities by the several unit owners; and (b) restrictions regarding the use of the units may include other prohibitions on, or allowance of, smoking tobacco products...

Smoke defined as a nuisance un Utah Code 78B-6-1101, (1) A nuisance is anything which is injurious to health, indecent, offensive to the senses, or an obstruction to the free use of property, so as to interfere with the comfortable enjoyment of life or property. A nuisance may be the subject of an action.
(3) A nuisance under this part includes tobacco smoke that drifts into any residential unit a person rents, leases, or owns, from another residential or commercial unit and the smoke:
(a) drifts in more than once in each of two or more consecutive seven-day periods; and
(b) creates any of the conditions under Subsection (1).




That is for the courts to decide. "smoke drift" is unrelated to the restriction of a "smoke free apartment". Which courts have made rulings on smoke drift making an apartment inhabitable[sic] for some people?

Courts have decided, read the legal opinions.

Here are a few cases:

Poyck v. Bryant
Donath v. Dadah
Fox Point Apts. v. Kippes
Snow v. Gilbert
Dworkin v. Paley
Harwood Captial Corp. v. Carey
Nancy v. Kirk
McCormick v. Moran
Heck v. Whithurst Co.


And I presume you meant uninhabitable.
Yes, I did. Pobodys Nerfict :lol:


It is not due to smoking, it is due to poor filtration.
Regardless, the property manager has to fix the problem and thereby has costs to cover, thereby harmed by the actions of the smoker. See the above listed cases.

I disagree.
Ok, with what part?

Is that legal?
Yes, read Nancy v. Kirk where it is established that three warnings established grounds for eviction. And again look at the Utah code.
 
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Sorry there are two misspellings in the cases listed:
Harwood Capital Corp. v. Carey and not Harwood Captial Corp. v Carey
Heck v. Whitehurst Co. and not Heck v. Whithurst Co.

Again, Pobodys Nerfict ;)
 
Due to some extremely negative consequences in my life as a result of smoking pot for years up until 4 years ago when I stopped, I decided to put down my opinion of the principles of the legalization of marijuana.

Please comment here and at the site. Can I make the argument any clearer?

Thank you.

Marijuana and the Harm Principle | noharmmeansnofoul.org

Out of respect for DP, please state your opinion of the principles for the legalization of marijuana on this site instead of using DP as an unpaid advertising platform for the other site.
 
Anyone who thinks marijuana should be legalized smokes it.
 
Anyone who thinks marijuana should be legalized smokes it.

Moderator's Warning:
Pay no attention to this drug addicted troll.
 
Out of respect for DP, please state your opinion of the principles for the legalization of marijuana on this site instead of using DP as an unpaid advertising platform for the other site.

Very well. I meant no disrespect. Seems simple enough in this day and age to link another site. But I will do as you ask and quote from my site:

The harm principle is the bolded phrase quoted: "That the only purpose for which power can be rightfully exercised over any member of a civilized community, against his will, is to prevent harm to others."

A corollary to harm to others is regarding harm to self: "Over himself, over his own body and mind, the individual is sovereign."

The Harm Principle

So we must see if the use of marijuana, for medical or recreation use violates the Harm Principle. There is nothing in the smoking of marijuana which causes harm to others. Actions taken while under the influence may cause harm but that is the fault of those actions taken irresponsibly, like driving, and it is not the fault of the use of marijuana. A corollary is alcohol and cigarettes.

There are several areas we can look at to see if smoking Marijuana may violate the Harm Principle. These areas are Violence, Operating vehicles while intoxicated, and Second hand smoke.

Violence

Marijuana smokers do not exhibit increased violent tendencies. This is in contrast to alcohol which lowers inhibitions and may lead to increased violence. This is not an issue for marijuana.

Operating vehicles while intoxicated

As mentioned above, operating a vehicle while intoxicated is not harmful because marijuana was taken, but because poor judgement was used and the decision to operate a vehicle was made. It is the operation of a vehicle while in a state of intoxication that is harmful, potential or actual, and not merely the intoxication. This is the same as alcohol. The argument is made that the intoxication causes the poor judgement that leads to the operation of a vehicle, but this is again not the fault of being intoxicated. There are many thousands who make the correct decision when faced with this choice.

Second hand smoke

The volume of marijuana smoking is much less than cigarettes. Where one may smoke 20-30 cigarettes and day, chronic marijuana smokers will smoke 3 or 4 times a day. So in keeping this in perspective, the volume of marijuana smoke is much less.

Smoking indoors, in a non-ventilated room, may produce a contact buzz. Smoking outdoors will disburse the smoke too much to be harmful or cause a contact buzz. Certainly smoking marijuana will follow the same smoking laws that cigarettes follow, which typically means no smoking indoors in public establishments. Often it means no smoking around entrances to businesses or public buildings.

Smokers, in general, should be respectful of non-smokers. However, smokers have the right to smoke and non-smokers need to show some common sense and avoid smokers if they have issues with it. This creates a situation where there is no harm.

There is a difference between smoking being offensive, but not harmful, and it being outright harmful. Second hand smoke is only offensive, especially outdoors.

Result

As shown, there is no violation of the Harm Principle. Under what principle, then, we may ask, is Marijuana to be considered criminal? The answer is none.

So, what can we do about it?



The classification of marijuana as a Schedule 1 Narcotic should be overturned immediately. Marijuana should not be classified on any Schedule. It should be classified as Alcohol is, regulated but not a Controlled substance.
All criminal code regarding marijuana should be revised.
The standards for security clearances should be immediately revised to exclude any mention of marijuana as a substance investigated under drug use.
The DEA should be forced to stop pursuing marijuana crimes, including the production, transport, distribution, sale and consumption of marijuana.
Regulation should be put into place for the production, transport, distribution and sale of marijuana.
Release all non-violent drug offenders involved in marijuana from prison.
All drug eradication programs with foreign governments, relating to marijuana, should be stopped.


These actions are to be taken under the firm principle that Marijuana use is not a violation of the Harm Principle. Another colloquial way to say this is the phrase "No Harm, No Foul".
 
I'm not quite sure:

But I think that's you saying that pot doesn't leave a lasting odor.

However- my "WTF are you talking about" was to your:

Is english not your first language? If so, then I can understand you not being able to comprehend the difference between not leaving a lasting odor and not leaving an odor. Not leaving a lasting odor means that there is an odor, but it goes away over time. As in weed smoke is not as pungent as cigarette smoke. I never said that weed does not leave an odor. If you can't understand something that simple, then why should more time be wasted explaining anything else to you.
 
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