The gas tax is inefficient

[molten_dragon]

People wouldn't work more, they would just change the times that they work.

This assumes that they have the ability to do so. Most people do not.

 

[phattonez]

This assumes that they have the ability to do so. Most people do not.

Based on what?

And we do know that it would cut down on the unnecessary trips that are taken during rush hour and would encourage smarter development patterns.

 

[Lord Tammerlain]

Based on what?

And we do know that it would cut down on the unnecessary trips that are taken during rush hour and would encourage smarter development patterns.

Except of course for the majority of people who do not get to set the times they work at. Those that are expected to be at work at 8 or 9 am and be there until 4 or 5 pm Monday to Friday

 

[peepnklown]

@ phattonez
As a fellow libertarian I can appreciate your proposal but, I have a different view. I still think we can incorporate tolled freeways but in parallel with public roads funded by a dedicated fuel tax. I think an only tolled freeway system might impede our freedom of travel. If we lived in a minarchist/libertarian world I would have no problem allowing the federal/national government to handle freeways that connect states only and allow the rest of the roads to be handled by the states. I would also make sure that the fuel tax can only be used on roads. I would also like to see road audits every year so a budget for the year can be created, if a surplus is reached, the money would run off to next year and a tax decrease would be installed and vice versa. I would like to see private sector companies bid for the work and this process would be transparent.

 

[phattonez]

Except of course for the majority of people who do not get to set the times they work at. Those that are expected to be at work at 8 or 9 am and be there until 4 or 5 pm Monday to Friday

You're proclaiming this based on what? Office work does not have to be done between those set hours. Retail work usually does fall under strict horus, but office work, maintenance, industrial, etc. These don't all have to be done from 9 to 5.

So no, it's not just a given that people are stuck with the hours that they have. In fact, both of my brothers work off those hours in order to avoid traffic and the other does it because of temperature (he goes to work early and leaves before it gets too hot, he works in Vegas).

 

[phattonez]

@ phattonez
As a fellow libertarian I can appreciate your proposal but, I have a different view. I still think we can incorporate tolled freeways but in parallel with public roads funded by a dedicated fuel tax. I think an only tolled freeway system might impede our freedom of travel. If we lived in a minarchist/libertarian world I would have no problem allowing the federal/national government to handle freeways that connect states only and allow the rest of the roads to be handled by the states. I would also make sure that the fuel tax can only be used on roads. I would also like to see road audits every year so a budget for the year can be created, if a surplus is reached, the money would run off to next year and a tax decrease would be installed and vice versa. I would like to see private sector companies bid for the work and this process would be transparent.

Why is this better? You just declared that you want this, but why is it better than what I proposed? Freedom of travel has a cost, and different roads cost different amounts. Right now we're not paying for the negative externality that we create when we drive and the people in charge of the roads are not using that to their advantage in order to get new roads built when congestion becomes too great. You cannot acheive a minimization of this negative externality without a toll.

And remember that tolling can be done completely electronically, no need for toll booths.

 

[peepnklown]

@ phattonez
Ok, please clarify something; who runs the tolled freeways?

 

[phattonez]

@ phattonez
Ok, please clarify something; who runs the tolled freeways?

I'd rather see them sold to private companies since I expect government to routinely gut the money from the toll roads, but I figure that this would not be acceptable to most people so by default government would have to run them.

 

[Scarecrow Akhbar]

Must be nice to have a sufficient road capacity for your area. We don't have that in California.

Yes we do. We have more than enough capacity for the lawful residents of California. The problem is the millions of illegal aliens clogging the state.

Also, have you ever noticed how traffic flows so smoothly on days the state and federal employees have off?

 

[Scarecrow Akhbar]

You're talking to a libertarian, so please don't use the freedom argument. What I'm proposing is more like the market solution, so I would see it as less government (since it would allow for private entry into the market as well).

The "market solution" to road congestion is already in play. When congestion goes up, more people choose to do something else rather than driving. The coins used are frustration and personal time.

 

[peepnklown]

@ phattonez
Well, my postulation was correct when I wanted a mixture of your tolled freeways and public freeways since you prefer private companies to run them. I still want public roads because we do have the freedom to travel.

 

[Kushinator]

Does the market internalize public goods? If so, how?

 

[phattonez]

The "market solution" to road congestion is already in play. When congestion goes up, more people choose to do something else rather than driving. The coins used are frustration and personal time.

You're basically arguing that because a proportional relation (F=kP) exists, that we don't need to do anything else. In other words, because will to drive already is proportional to congestion levels, that everything is okay. But there's that proportionality constant k. You don't know what that k should be. You need toll roads to derive a solution that capitalize on rush-hour congestion to limit that negative externality and sure a decent commute at all hours of the day.

Or if you want an example, imagine if you had a factory open up next door to you. The government deemed that they pay you $1000 for every x amount of pollution they produce. But what if the health effects to you are higher? Are you going to tell me that because the punishment is proportional to the damage that they are paying enough, even though your health care bills are soaring and property values are diving?

 

[phattonez]

@ phattonez
Well, my postulation was correct when I wanted a mixture of your tolled freeways and public freeways since you prefer private companies to run them. I still want public roads because we do have the freedom to travel.

The freedom to travel imposes a negative externality on other drivers. Right now we're not paying for that negative externality because the market-based solution has basically been outlawed. The freedom to travel comes with the price, and right now we're not paying the full price.

 

[phattonez]

Yes we do. We have more than enough capacity for the lawful residents of California. The problem is the millions of illegal aliens clogging the state.

I wasn't aware that illegal immigrants were somehow exempt from the gas tax. How did they pull off that massage tax fraud? The problem is that the gas tax is routinely gutted for use in the general fund and especially for almost worthless public transit construction.

So then why do I want a gas tax knowing that the government can easily gut that money for use however they want? It allow private companies to enter into the market and provide some competition (all the while increasing capacity for us and allowing the city to move again).

Also, have you ever noticed how traffic flows so smoothly on days the state and federal employees have off?

Traffic flow smoothly only before 6am, between 10:30-2, and after 8 (but sometimes later). It's a symptom of the problem. When demand goes up, price does not go up, even though supply is invariable. That's not exactly a creative market solution, that's the top-heavy government bureaucracy solution.

 

[peepnklown]

@ phattonez
Ok, so a state/private sector hybrid freeway system?

 

[phattonez]

@ phattonez
Ok, so a state/private sector hybrid freeway system?

Ideally just a private one is what I'd want, but I think only the private/public system could possibly ever be acceptable to most voters.