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The gas tax is inefficient

phattonez

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Seriously, it does nothing to address peak usage or demand vs. supply. If you congestion price roads, you get people to use the freeway during off-peak hours more often and you'll know exactly where to build more. With a gas tax, what information do you get besides how far people are driving? Forget the gas tax, just use that to pay for streets. Congestion pricing (or some kind of variant such as adding on an emission fee) is much more efficient.

It infuriates me that this is a sacred cow in politics.
 

PeteEU

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Gas tax has nothing to do addressing peak usage or demand vs supply. It has to do with forcing people to think about their usage and what kind of car they buy. Walk to the corner store instead of driving and buy a small compact that can go 60+ miles per gallon instead of the SUV that does 10. But then again you guys dont have any gas tax that means anything :)
 

phattonez

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Gas tax has nothing to do addressing peak usage or demand vs supply. It has to do with forcing people to think about their usage and what kind of car they buy. Walk to the corner store instead of driving and buy a small compact that can go 60+ miles per gallon instead of the SUV that does 10. But then again you guys dont have any gas tax that means anything :)
Gas tax has nothing to do with those, but tolling would take care of those (and an emission fee would satisfy your contention).

It's absurd that when supply gets scarce that price stays exactly the same. There's a ton of profit that is left untapped, and that profit is a signal that building a new road or some kind of transportation near that corridor would be a success. We don't have that signal right now, and we don't have an incentive to increase capacity except the pressure that is put on politicians (and that hasn't been very successful since road funds have been diverted to much less effective rail projects).
 

PeteEU

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Gas tax has nothing to do with those, but tolling would take care of those (and an emission fee would satisfy your contention).
LOL it has everything to do with those two. Gas tax in Europe was put in place in a very serious manner after the first oil crisis. The justification for this tax was to avoid the hardship that an oil shock could cause (and of course a revenue for the government) by pushing the consumer to smaller cars with great mileage. Add to that, the forcing of car companies to make such cars by putting on minimum mandatory mileage requirement (and changing them every half a decade or so).

This has resulted in Europeans buying smaller fuel efficient cars and being world leaders in fuel efficiency cars. It also resulted in that Europeans did not feel the same hardship of the speculative oil price hike of the last few years, because they were use to high prices.

It's absurd that when supply gets scarce that price stays exactly the same. There's a ton of profit that is left untapped, and that profit is a signal that building a new road or some kind of transportation near that corridor would be a success. We don't have that signal right now, and we don't have an incentive to increase capacity except the pressure that is put on politicians (and that hasn't been very successful since road funds have been diverted to much less effective rail projects).
Eh? When supply gets scarce the price goes up.. what planet do you live on? Or are you advocating for tax rises when prices are pushed up, so that the over all price goes up even more? Are you a communist or something?

As for increasing capacity.. of what? Oil production? Cars? Roads? you make no sense.
 

phattonez

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LOL it has everything to do with those two. Gas tax in Europe was put in place in a very serious manner after the first oil crisis. The justification for this tax was to avoid the hardship that an oil shock could cause (and of course a revenue for the government) by pushing the consumer to smaller cars with great mileage. Add to that, the forcing of car companies to make such cars by putting on minimum mandatory mileage requirement (and changing them every half a decade or so).

This has resulted in Europeans buying smaller fuel efficient cars and being world leaders in fuel efficiency cars. It also resulted in that Europeans did not feel the same hardship of the speculative oil price hike of the last few years, because they were use to high prices.

Eh? When supply gets scarce the price goes up.. what planet do you live on? Or are you advocating for tax rises when prices are pushed up, so that the over all price goes up even more? Are you a communist or something?

As for increasing capacity.. of what? Oil production? Cars? Roads? you make no sense.
I think you've lost my point. I'm talking about rush hour and congestion and road capacity. Not demand for oil or anything like that.
 

PeteEU

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I think you've lost my point. I'm talking about rush hour and congestion and road capacity. Not demand for oil or anything like that.
That is not "gas tax" lol. That is congestion tax/charge. Hugeeeeee difference
 

molten_dragon

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If you congestion price roads, you get people to use the freeway during off-peak hours more often and you'll know exactly where to build more.
This is only works if you assume people have the option of when to use the roads. Since the majority of people have jobs, and the majority of those jobs don't let you come into work whenever you want, your theory kind of falls apart. I mean, sure, you COULD go into work 4 hours early and leave 3 hours late to miss the rush hour and have to pay less for your drive, but how many people are honestly going to do that?
 

PeteEU

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This is only works if you assume people have the option of when to use the roads. Since the majority of people have jobs, and the majority of those jobs don't let you come into work whenever you want, your theory kind of falls apart. I mean, sure, you COULD go into work 4 hours early and leave 3 hours late to miss the rush hour and have to pay less for your drive, but how many people are honestly going to do that?
That is why an efficient well done public transport system is always the best. We have learned this in many major cities around the world and even inbetween cities. Very few people take the plane from Malaga to Madrid in Spain any more, since taking the high-speed train the 1000 km is cheaper and faster. Domestic air travel in Spain between cities that have gotten high speed trains has fallen dramatically. Add to that city wide well made public transport and you got the recipe for fast reliable transport in areas where the car can be a problem.
 

Barbbtx

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That is why an efficient well done public transport system is always the best. We have learned this in many major cities around the world and even inbetween cities. Very few people take the plane from Malaga to Madrid in Spain any more, since taking the high-speed train the 1000 km is cheaper and faster. Domestic air travel in Spain between cities that have gotten high speed trains has fallen dramatically. Add to that city wide well made public transport and you got the recipe for fast reliable transport in areas where the car can be a problem.
We live in America.
I won't speak for those in America who live in large cities. That's their loss.
But for others in America:
We like the freedom of jumping in our cars, driving routes we want to take, when we want to take them. We may even throw the kids or dogs or both in our SUVs and just go for scenic drives for the hec of it. We may drive around in our Pick-ups every Saturday bargain hunting at flea markets and yard sales. We may drive 100 mi. a day for work.
Gas taxes that pay for our roads etc. are necessary. What I keep hearing more and more about is that we should artificially skyrocket gas prices to force people into cars and life styles they may not voluntarially choose on their own. That is not freedom.
 

MaggieD

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Seriously, it does nothing to address peak usage or demand vs. supply. If you congestion price roads, you get people to use the freeway during off-peak hours more often and you'll know exactly where to build more. With a gas tax, what information do you get besides how far people are driving? Forget the gas tax, just use that to pay for streets. Congestion pricing (or some kind of variant such as adding on an emission fee) is much more efficient.

It infuriates me that this is a sacred cow in politics.
Okay, I give up. How does one "congestion price" a road?

Pete EU's right.
 

Renae

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Seriously, it does nothing to address peak usage or demand vs. supply. If you congestion price roads, you get people to use the freeway during off-peak hours more often and you'll know exactly where to build more. With a gas tax, what information do you get besides how far people are driving? Forget the gas tax, just use that to pay for streets. Congestion pricing (or some kind of variant such as adding on an emission fee) is much more efficient.

It infuriates me that this is a sacred cow in politics.
I believe what you are seeking are "Toll Roads"
 

Lord Tammerlain

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Okay, I give up. How does one "congestion price" a road?

Pete EU's right.
London England has done it


They charge a rather large fee for entering a certain section of the city in a private vehicle during peak hours.


I dont particularly like the idea, but it does seem to have cut down on traffic in that section of London


Overall I think just the traffic alone will cause people to seek alternatives depending on how bad it is and how much they value their time
 

Lord Tammerlain

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Seriously, it does nothing to address peak usage or demand vs. supply. If you congestion price roads, you get people to use the freeway during off-peak hours more often and you'll know exactly where to build more. With a gas tax, what information do you get besides how far people are driving? Forget the gas tax, just use that to pay for streets. Congestion pricing (or some kind of variant such as adding on an emission fee) is much more efficient.

It infuriates me that this is a sacred cow in politics.
Gas tax has nothing to do addressing peak usage or demand vs supply. It has to do with forcing people to think about their usage and what kind of car they buy. Walk to the corner store instead of driving and buy a small compact that can go 60+ miles per gallon instead of the SUV that does 10. But then again you guys dont have any gas tax that means anything :)
Pete is correct the gas tax has nothing to do with peak usage, but overall consumption of gasoline or diesel.

The gasoline tax also helps Europe with its current account. More oil consumption means more money leaving Europe to parts unknown
 

phattonez

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That is not "gas tax" lol. That is congestion tax/charge. Hugeeeeee difference
I never said that the gas tax was the same as a congestion tax. You didn't read my post very well.
 

phattonez

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This is only works if you assume people have the option of when to use the roads. Since the majority of people have jobs, and the majority of those jobs don't let you come into work whenever you want, your theory kind of falls apart. I mean, sure, you COULD go into work 4 hours early and leave 3 hours late to miss the rush hour and have to pay less for your drive, but how many people are honestly going to do that?
A lot of people would to save money. There is also the option of moving closer to work or taking the streets.
 

phattonez

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Pete is correct the gas tax has nothing to do with peak usage, but overall consumption of gasoline or diesel.
I never said it did!

The gasoline tax also helps Europe with its current account. More oil consumption means more money leaving Europe to parts unknown
Since we abandoned mercantilism long ago, I don't see why this is an advantage.
 

phattonez

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Before this thread goes any further, I think people should learn what congestion pricing means before berating me for something I never said. Congestion pricing is not the same as a gas tax and the gas tax does nothing to address peak demand. I never claimed the opposite.

"Congestion pricing or congestion charges is a system of surcharging users of a transport network in periods of peak demand to reduce traffic congestion."

So when traffic goes up, the price goes up.

Congestion pricing - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Congestion pricing has also been implemented in urban freeways. Between 2004 and 2005, Santiago de Chile implemented the first 100% non-stop urban toll for concessioned freeways passing through a downtown area,[90] charging by the distance traveled.[91] Congestion pricing is used since 2007 during rush hours in order to maintain reasonable speeds within the city's core with the aim of keeping a minimum level of service for their customers.[92][93]
That right there is closer to the system that I'm talking about. It's a toll road but the toll goes up during peak hours. It maintains reasonable speeds and diverts some traffic to off-peak hours. With this system people pay for a faster commute (or change their commute so as to avoid paying) and the city gets more money for transportation projects.

Of course, we would have more money for effective transportation projects if the gas tax wasn't as severely gutted as it is today for rail projects that increase capacity by very little in most cases.
 
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UtahBill

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A lot of people would to save money. There is also the option of moving closer to work or taking the streets.
Move closer to work? Not an option if you own your home. Renters might find that option viable....
Even if you are just now buying a home....what assurance do you have that you will have the same job a year from now?

Trying to make the very large USA fit the EU mold is not an easy thing to accomplish...
 

phattonez

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Move closer to work? Not an option if you own your home. Renters might find that option viable....
Even if you are just now buying a home....what assurance do you have that you will have the same job a year from now?

Trying to make the very large USA fit the EU mold is not an easy thing to accomplish...
That's not the point of this thread at all.

Can we just have a thread where people stop trying to fit me into some perceived ideological mold and just debate what I'm actually saying?
 

tacomancer

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That's not the point of this thread at all.

Can we just have a thread where people stop trying to fit me into some perceived ideological mold and just debate what I'm actually saying?
Happens to me all the time "you liberals ...". Annoying isn't it?
 

UtahBill

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That's not the point of this thread at all.

Can we just have a thread where people stop trying to fit me into some perceived ideological mold and just debate what I'm actually saying?
YOU are the one who brought it up, why do that if you are not inviting a response?
 

Lord Tammerlain

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I never said it did!



Since we abandoned mercantilism long ago, I don't see why this is an advantage.

Do you believe that sending wealth outside a country for a consumable good is a good thing for a country or an economy? At a rate then wealth is put into an economy.

Or lets just simplify it and put it on a personal level, is it a good thing to spend more money then you make for an extended period of time?
 

Lord Tammerlain

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I never said it did!



Since we abandoned mercantilism long ago, I don't see why this is an advantage.
You are the one upset that gas taxes did not address road congestion, which generally would indicate a belief that the intent of that person that the gas tax was intended to address road consumption
 

dontworrybehappy

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This has resulted in Europeans buying smaller fuel efficient cars and being world leaders in fuel efficiency cars. It also resulted in that Europeans did not feel the same hardship of the speculative oil price hike of the last few years, because they were use to high prices.
It has caused Europeans to buy a form of transportation laughed at in the US, scooters. Scooters outsell cars every year as the most popular form of transportation worldwide. The US, with it's need to drive 7000lb vehicles for one person to get to work carrying a briefcase, has put us in the leaderboard of fuel consumption. In Europe my scooter would be the envy of the neighborhood, in the US I'm laughed at. Well, let's see who has the last laugh at the gas pump.

Of course being a Libertarian, I am 100% in favor of people having that right. But just like the ground zero mosque, I don't think it's a good idea. As they say, the right to do it doesn't make it the right thing to do. You cause issues when you do that. You don't need an 8mpg vehicle to get you to work when you can find a cheaper vehicle getting 5 times that and getting you to work in the level of comfort and in the same timeframe as the bigger vehicle.

Americans being fat, dumb and happy don't realize we're shooting ourselves in the foot. While some stand up and demand the right to buy Hummers, Escalades, etc, others are holding up charts of our consumption of fuel and how, per capita, it far exceeds any other nation on earth and then ask, "Where do we get this oil from?" Nations that hate us? Yep. You want to fund the terrorists these nations assist? Well, keep driving your SUV's. You're exercising your right, and well, so is Iran and Venezuela. I know, many people HATE to hear that "they fund terrorism" by driving gas guzzlers but, really, it's true. We aren't an oil independent nation and the vast majority of our oil comes from countries who wish us harm and who would gladly sell to China if we went down so yea, I mean it sucks BIGTIME to say, but it's true.

If we were 100% oil independent I wouldn't care less what people drove.
 
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