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The futility of Prayer

Realitywins said:
Talking to nothing is positive?
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am I speaking to a higher power who is going to drop everything and do servant work....no

do I communicate with a higher power...absolutely

does it affect the way I live my life...absolutely

am I positive of my choices and the way I run my life...absolutely

do I give a damn what others think of that...absolutely not

:shrug:

the secret to not feeling and displaying violence and anger and bitterness and mocking the choices of others is to find your own truth

start looking...you have a ways to go ;)
 
MaggieD said:
Whatever.

Placebos work. Consider prayer a placebo. Or don't. What you believe is of very little consequence to anyone else.
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Unfortunately, that's not necessarily true. Leading people away from Christ, is quite consequential.
 
Fearandloathing said:
But you take the time to criticize those who do.

If you were as self assured as you sound you wouldn't have gone out of your way to blather on about people who do believe in prayer.

I wonder where the antagonism comes from
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I think the point is that it's juvenile and irresponsible, perpetuating the lie that you can heal people or, in any way, alter reality by merely psychically communing with a subjective divinity.

The "antagonism" is, no doubt, for the innocent who have died or otherwise suffered because the adults in their lives chose childish prayer over proven science as a treatment. My father was an example of this when his childhood meningitis was "treated" with faith. He suffered life-long consequences of his mother's mental illness. Many others have endured even worse, yet prayer is still considered a rational choice by the faithful.

I don't think all other forms of delusion are as dangerous but, when they are, the antagonism is deserved.
 
D_NATURED said:
I think the point is that it's juvenile and irresponsible, perpetuating the lie that you can heal people or, in any way, alter reality by merely psychically communing with a subjective divinity.

The "antagonism" is, no doubt, for the innocent who have died or otherwise suffered because the adults in their lives chose childish prayer over proven science as a treatment. My father was an example of this when his childhood meningitis was "treated" with faith. He suffered life-long consequences of his mother's mental illness. Many others have endured even worse, yet prayer is still considered a rational choice by the faithful.

I don't think all other forms of delusion are as dangerous but, when they are, the antagonism is deserved.
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It seems to me that it isn't prayer itself that is the issue. It is the pray instead of getting proper medical help that is the issue in that case.
 
Realitywins said:
If we felt inferior, we'd be praying.:lamo
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I don't think the criticism is so much of atheists, there are plenty of people who are atheist without feeling a constant daily need to bully the religious on the Internet.

Then on the other hand there are the small minority of atheists who do enjoy bullying.

The first group, atheists who are secure enough with themselves and their beliefs that they do not feel the need to insult and demean other people, almost certainly don't feel inferior.

But those who do feel the need to drag other people and their beliefs down on a more-or-less regular basis, such as yourself, almost certainly suffer from the same kind of /guilt/shame/inferiority complexes that any other bully suffers from, and the fact that the majority of the bullying is done anonymously on the Internet also suggests that there is a certain degree of physical cowardice motivating the behavior.

You'll deny all of this of course, as any bully would, but it's really so transparent that your protestations wouldn't be fooling anyone but yourself.

I would seek out some psychiatric help if I were you.

You can actually get to work closing that hole of shame and guilt you suffer from, rather than constantly trying to fill it by deliberately hurting others.

As they say, "hurt people, hurt people", and you're 1st class, grade "A", true-to-type example of a hurt person.

Good luck to you.

I'll be praying for you.

Clearly it won't help, because, you know, research, but it'll make me feel like I'm doing something for you, which has enormously positive psychological effects for me, or shouldn't I say that because, you know, research says I can't derive any benefit from prayer.

Either way, get some help kiddo.
 
RAMOSS said:
It seems to me that it isn't prayer itself that is the issue. It is the pray instead of getting proper medical help that is the issue in that case.
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This is becoming a "guns don't kill people, people kill people" debate. Can you see that there is a problem when people make the conscious choice to believe that they can merely wish good things into existence or, worse, just beg the supernatural to affect positive change? The irony, of course, being that when the faithful want someone healed, they use prayer. When they want someone dead, they use ballistics and chemistry, accepting their role as god's little helper.

So, pretending that prayer is harmless requires one to ignore all the harm that comes with magical thinking, and that is the biggest struggle that we face here. I am willing to forgive people their auto-erotic exercises as long as they don't get anything on me. A person's right to feel good does not usurp my own right to be treated as an equal and not be allowed to suffer for their fantasy.

Ironically, the image of the small child, dutifully kneeling at their bed side, asking god to "bless" their family members, is the picture of prayer that gets put on the label. The real ingredients, though, are much more toxic and are, as we speak, being used to justify perpetual slaughter and ignorance.
 
I'm an atheist and certainly don't believe in prayer but that doesn't mean I have to be a dick about it. Sometimes prayer is all a person has to offer and doing so gives themselves some small amount of emotional comfort. I'm not going to begrudge them that.

Now, if they are praying instead of doing something to actually address the problem, like seeking medical help, then that is another story.
 
D_NATURED said:
This is becoming a "guns don't kill people, people kill people" debate. Can you see that there is a problem when people make the conscious choice to believe that they can merely wish good things into existence or, worse, just beg the supernatural to affect positive change? The irony, of course, being that when the faithful want someone healed, they use prayer. When they want someone dead, they use ballistics and chemistry, accepting their role as god's little helper.

So, pretending that prayer is harmless requires one to ignore all the harm that comes with magical thinking, and that is the biggest struggle that we face here. I am willing to forgive people their auto-erotic exercises as long as they don't get anything on me. A person's right to feel good does not usurp my own right to be treated as an equal and not be allowed to suffer for their fantasy.

Ironically, the image of the small child, dutifully kneeling at their bed side, asking god to "bless" their family members, is the picture of prayer that gets put on the label. The real ingredients, though, are much more toxic and are, as we speak, being used to justify perpetual slaughter and ignorance.
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Perpetual slaughte and ignorance ? Lol....

Hey, Man doesn't need releigion to justify the slaughter of innocence....

Cambodia's brutal Khmer Rouge regime - BBC News
 
D_NATURED said:
I think the point is that it's juvenile and irresponsible, perpetuating the lie that you can heal people or, in any way, alter reality by merely psychically communing with a subjective divinity.

The "antagonism" is, no doubt, for the innocent who have died or otherwise suffered because the adults in their lives chose childish prayer over proven science as a treatment. My father was an example of this when his childhood meningitis was "treated" with faith. He suffered life-long consequences of his mother's mental illness. Many others have endured even worse, yet prayer is still considered a rational choice by the faithful.

I don't think all other forms of delusion are as dangerous but, when they are, the antagonism is deserved.
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the antagonism is deserved


I call that hate
 
Realitywins said:
Prayer is simply another of the controls of wielded by religions.

Oh, you can find thousands of words making unfounded and unprovable claims for prayer, but none of them has ever been been scientifically proven.
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I can't believe i have to say this, but here goes.

You do understand that people who pray aren't doing it because they think there is a scientifically proven benefit to it right?
 
BrewerBob said:
I'm an atheist and certainly don't believe in prayer but that doesn't mean I have to be a dick about it. Sometimes prayer is all a person has to offer and doing so gives themselves some small amount of emotional comfort. I'm not going to begrudge them that.

Now, if they are praying instead of doing something to actually address the problem, like seeking medical help, then that is another story.
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Actually, prayer for a believer, can give an enormous amount of comfort. And the recipient of prayer, even barring any supernatural intervention, can receive great comfort as well. I mean, do atheists shout horrible negative things at their ill or distraught loved ones? No, of course not, they give them positive words of comfort and support. Do doctors advocate negativity as a boost to healing? No, of course they don't. Every grave, or terminally ill loved one I've ever had, their doctors advised a positive outlook as a way to boost healing. The OP is a bunch of nonsense, and I'll never understand why some people feel the need to be so damn hateful.
 
D_NATURED said:
I think the point is that it's juvenile and irresponsible, perpetuating the lie that you can heal people or, in any way, alter reality by merely psychically communing with a subjective divinity.

The "antagonism" is, no doubt, for the innocent who have died or otherwise suffered because the adults in their lives chose childish prayer over proven science as a treatment. My father was an example of this when his childhood meningitis was "treated" with faith. He suffered life-long consequences of his mother's mental illness. Many others have endured even worse, yet prayer is still considered a rational choice by the faithful.

I don't think all other forms of delusion are as dangerous but, when they are, the antagonism is deserved.
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There are very few cult denominations which advocate prayer alone, over medical treatment. Christian Scientists for one, and that's a complete money making racket, and utterly un-biblical. So, to suggest any great number of mainstream Christians do this, is disingenuous, at best. There are myriad Christian hospitals and medical centers for cryin' out loud. Even some of the cult denominations have them.

Positive words of encouragement and wishes for healing are always a good thing, even barring any supernatural connotations. Period, end of story.
 
CLAX1911 said:
I can't believe i have to say this, but here goes.

You do understand that people who pray aren't doing it because they think there is a scientifically proven benefit to it right?
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well there are some sects who believe that if you live a clean god fearing life, you won't get sick and that sickness is a sign of sin and therefore repentance and praying is supposed to heal you

:shrug: as adults, they have the right
 
Fearandloathing said:
the antagonism is deserved


I call that hate
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When you accuse people of just hating, without any mention of their reasoning, there is the implied accusation that they have no REASON for it. Some times, it's fully justified.

It's too easy to throw the "H" word around, though, without having to explain what it is. Love and hate are both only measurable as actions. As long as the hate is just feelings and thoughts, it's harmless to you and your sensitivity is unjustified. If you can demonstrate how someone's distrust of the motives of the faithful and the efficacy of prayer have harmed you, you will have a case to speak. Until then, REAL victims, like my father, trump your petty insecurities by a mile.
 
Fenton said:
Perpetual slaughte and ignorance ? Lol....

Hey, Man doesn't need releigion to justify the slaughter of innocence....

Cambodia's brutal Khmer Rouge regime - BBC News
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I think I just said as much. However, you must admit that it seems a bigger waste when people are slaughtered to fulfill the divine fantasies of morons.

BTW, every time someone trots out Pol Pot as an "atheists murder too" argument, they prove their willingness to ignore the much greater harm that continues to be perpetrated by the faithful. If there is a god, He's big and strong enough that he doesn't need to have his magical ass defended by capricious equivocation. If YOU are honest, you'll agree that NOT believing in magic is not the same as believing in it. The fact that the non-magical have murdered others to please themselves in no way excuses murders that are designed to please the sky. One is FAR more irrational.
 
D_NATURED said:
I think I just said as much. However, you must admit that it seems a bigger waste when people are slaughtered to fulfill the divine fantasies of morons.

BTW, every time someone trots out Pol Pot as an "atheists murder too" argument, they prove their willingness to ignore the much greater harm that continues to be perpetrated by the faithful. If there is a god, He's big and strong enough that he doesn't need to have his magical ass defended by capricious equivocation. If YOU are honest, you'll agree that NOT believing in magic is not the same as believing in it. The fact that the non-magical have murdered others to please themselves in no way excuses murders that are designed to please the sky. One is FAR more irrational.
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Lol ! Oh I can cite mass murder from other aetheist too !

Stalin's Great Purge..
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Purge

What difference does the reasoning make ? Your'e own bias shows how a faith in a belief or a idea can overcome reason and objectivity.

Pol Pot and Josheph Stalin had as much faith in their twisted world views and ideologies as any Christian does and their faith led to the the killing of tens of millions of human beings.

Its a axiomatic truth that Humans have never needed religion to justify sensless death and destruction.
 
_Sal said:
well there are some sects who believe that if you live a clean god fearing life, you won't get sick and that sickness is a sign of sin and therefore repentance and praying is supposed to heal you

:shrug: as adults, they have the right
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I still don't think they believe that is scientifically proven
 
Fenton said:
Lol ! Oh I can cite mass murder from other aetheist too ... Its a axiomatic truth that Humans have never needed religion to justify sensless death and destruction.
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I guess there are degrees of "senselessness". Religion is, perhaps, the MOST senseless reason to murder. I suppose that either way you're dead but I'd rather be murdered for a real cheeseburger than for some imaginary palace in the sky. The latter seems especially dumb.
 
Realitywins said:
Prayer is simply another of the controls of wielded by religions.

Oh, you can find thousands of words making unfounded and unprovable claims for prayer, but none of them has ever been been scientifically proven. Miracles at Lourdes? Yah, right. Mass hysteria more like.

In fact, there have been studies on the efficacy of prayer. A religious group did one and lo and behold, hosannas, praise de lawd, jesus is king...prayer works!!!

A group of scientists duplicated the study but double-blind and controlled...well, the faithful were not amused. Absolutely no effect from prayer...well, that is not quite true. Of the people who knew they were being prayed for, many got worse; Power of prayer flunks an unusual test - Health - Heart health | NBC News

Lets face if folks, if prayer worked, there'd be no world hunger, limbs would grow back, cancer would be unknown, rape and pedophilia would cease to exist, war would be long since extinct.

There is no god to pray to and intercede for you and every church in the world which runs a hospital or any medical facility whatsoever is admitting this. For if prayer worked, there'd be no need for hospitals, doctors, nurses.
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I've had prayers answered several times. Some were answered almost instantaneously!
I'm talking from experience.
 
tosca1 said:
I've had prayers answered several times. Some were answered almost instantaneously!
I'm talking from experience.
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Answered prayers are like the monkeys with the typewriters producing the great works. Eventually, it will seem to have occurred intelligently but, in reality, it's just chance.

Nobody asks god for things they don't believe they deserve already. No prayer would ask for the impossible without it being in mockery of their faith. What is your "answered prayer" ratio? Does god grant your wishes twenty percent of the time? Is it more than that? What do you imagine it is?
 
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